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TwoPair posted:Full circle, baby. It also makes me wonder if part of the pressure came from the writers themselves. There's not much happening with Inhumans atm and they had to have all known that she was originally supposed to be a mutant.
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Apr 6, 2024 04:10
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drrockso20 posted:Incidentally also why Squirrel Girl got retconned to not be a mutant anymore(though they still haven't really explained what she actually is now) Girl with habitual squirrels
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Apr 6, 2024 07:19
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I trust Simone on this particular bit, but plain truth is that Marvel has definitely dictated a bunch of comic book changes based on MCU stuff, or other stuff, in the past, so acting like these are just all weird conspiracy theories or whatever is kind of disingenuous. The X-Men franchise specifically is chock bloody full of these instances, the most notorious in recent memory being how every writer and editor spent interview after interview assuring us that, no no, we definitely weren't sidelining the X-Men to prop up the Inhumans, you're just all reading too much into things!...and then it turns out they were absolutely for sure doing that and Jordan D. White has to go "lol yeah that deffo happened" however many years down the line. The same thing happened with the FF around the same time where they were like "Whaaat we would never deliberately shelve those characters because of any studio mandates! What a silly thought, you silly fans!" and then it turns out yyup, that literal exact obvious thing everyone thought was happening did in fact happen. poo poo, they set things up so that Madame Web has had more comics appearances in these past three months than she's had in like three years thanks to a movie that isn't actually about the same character and isn't even a Disney production. Which is fine, comic books are a business and it makes sense to highlight or downplay synergy as it makes sense. But you really can't then blame readers when they've been trained to be suspicious about their comics being influenced by the big movies or TV shows. ...Which -- to segue into a very relevant topic -- is pretty ironic given what this week's (amazing) issue of Immortal Thor was all about, which is the Enchantress and Dario Agger changing Thor's very nature by forcing synergy with how he's depicted in a comic book that Roxxon now publishes. I'm honestly kind of surprised that Ewing was allowed to put some of this stuff in the issue, considering that it can read as being...well, somewhat ungenerous towards...certain major corporations, let's say, in a way that goes beyond simple lighthearted ribbing. 
BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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Apr 6, 2024 09:47
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NikkolasKing posted:I am curious, as a new X-comics reader. One of the things about Xavier is that the Silver Age, when he's most unambiguously the 'wise old mentor' of the team... is also the era where he's most morally dubious. And not just stuff like being in love with Jean - that's clearly a one-off bit of weirdness before the characters were really established - but pretty much every issue he's mind-wiping people or deceiving his students. Throw in that he's working with the FBI and keeping his mutant identity secret, and he's really terrible at being the moral heart of the team. Sure, it's the Silver Age, the comics are a bit goofier - but it's also when the character was established, and really the only time he was the unquestioned figure of authority. By the time of the Claremont era, the team's a bit older and he's not the only adult anymore, so the dynamic changes a fair bit. It's not surprising that later writers have decided to go in the direction of interpreting him as always having been a bit dubious in his methods, rather than the moral paragon that we see in the comics and movies. And I don't think that's really a problem - it honestly makes for a nice contrast, that we have Magneto as the sympathetic villain going up against Xavier, the untrustworthy hero.
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Apr 6, 2024 11:51
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The one bit of mandate business that always sticks with me is Peter putting on the black suit again for maybe six issues? After Civil War to tie in with the 3rd raimi movie.
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Apr 6, 2024 12:51
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When the black costume went from his "poo poo my red and blue costume is in the laundry" suit to his "toying with the idea of murder" clothes
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Apr 6, 2024 13:29
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OnimaruXLR posted:When the black costume went from his "poo poo my red and blue costume is in the laundry" suit to his "toying with the idea of murder" clothes It's weird that they didn't use BND to make the black suit a regular alternate look because MJ as his significant other was the main reason he stopped using it originally.
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Apr 6, 2024 13:55
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Immortal Thor was really good this week. Nice to have a villain admit he’s evil because he likes when number go up.
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Apr 6, 2024 19:20
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Open Marriage Night posted:Immortal Thor was really good this week. Nice to have a villain admit he’s evil because he likes when number go up. I really liked it but I think it's gonna hit the same problem as Immortal Hulk where Hulk says some poo poo about saving the world by any means necessary and ends up not doing that because status quo is king and 616 always has to vaguely mirror our poo poo world. Now Thor's talking some poo poo about stopping Roxxon because of them destroying the planet and again, by the end of the book maybe he'll beat up the Minotaur but we all know nothing will really happen. I love Ewing but maybe he should like do an out-of-continuity mini if he's gonna keep having protagonists call their shots at fixing giant actual global problems.
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Apr 6, 2024 19:50
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BrianWilly posted:I trust Simone on this particular bit, but plain truth is that Marvel has definitely dictated a bunch of comic book changes based on MCU stuff, or other stuff, in the past, so acting like these are just all weird conspiracy theories or whatever is kind of disingenuous. The X-Men franchise specifically is chock bloody full of these instances, the most notorious in recent memory being how every writer and editor spent interview after interview assuring us that, no no, we definitely weren't sidelining the X-Men to prop up the Inhumans, you're just all reading too much into things!...and then it turns out they were absolutely for sure doing that and Jordan D. White has to go "lol yeah that deffo happened" however many years down the line. The same thing happened with the FF around the same time where they were like "Whaaat we would never deliberately shelve those characters because of any studio mandates! What a silly thought, you silly fans!" and then it turns out yyup, that literal exact obvious thing everyone thought was happening did in fact happen. poo poo, they set things up so that Madame Web has had more comics appearances in these past three months than she's had in like three years thanks to a movie that isn't actually about the same character and isn't even a Disney production. I hear they're called the Infinity Stones in the comics now, too. Also looking over Wolverine's history, Greg Rucka's run in the early 2000s had covers which totally made him look like Jackmanverine. In fact, I've heard the X-Men's costumes at the time took a clear inspiration from the movies. So yeah, I don't doubt it happens, just in this particular instance I was confused. Speaking of Xavier though, I finally started HoXPoX. Kinda whatever at first but once I got to HoX 2 and Moira's stuff, I really got invested. It just makes sense. She's seen all the other routes in which one figure/one path was tried and they failed. So the solution is to combine all of them. The stuff in the far-off Powers of X future, though, doesn't interest me near as much. Also I don't really know anything about the character of Destiny except I guess she's Kurt's parent now instead of a demon. But I always thought she was supposed to be less awful than Mystique. Specifically burning someone to death slowly is...well, about as bad as you can get, in my book.
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Apr 6, 2024 19:51
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Doesn’t this make Kurt and Blindfold relatives? I think Blindfold is dead for tax purposes and living in Legions head though.
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Apr 6, 2024 20:14
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Kingtheninja posted:The one bit of mandate business that always sticks with me is Peter putting on the black suit again for maybe six issues? After Civil War to tie in with the 3rd raimi movie. I’ve always no-prized it that the Watsonian (doctor, not Mary Jane) reason Peter went back to the black suit when Aunt May got shot was because of ASM 500, when he got to see his last stand. Of course later in the run he got the offer of a new costume that was a reversible jacket that could be worn over street clothes and had black instead of blue for the secondary colour, which would have fit for a replacement costume given the circumstances…except it’s the costume his future self was wearing when he died, so Peter wound up going back to the black suit instead in the hope of averting that future in some way. Which hey, mission accomplished I guess. Lobok posted:It's weird that they didn't use BND to make the black suit a regular alternate look because MJ as his significant other was the main reason he stopped using it originally.
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Apr 6, 2024 20:19
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I like the idea that Peter adopts the black costume for the "I'm gonna seriously gently caress someone up now" part when he takes things seriously. Because serious Spider-Man is loving scary.
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Apr 6, 2024 20:24
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Codependent Poster posted:I like the idea that Peter adopts the black costume for the "I'm gonna seriously gently caress someone up now" part when he takes things seriously. Because serious Spider-Man is loving scary. Which is weird because Peter doesn't have reason to think like that. We see it that way ever since the '90s cartoon but why would he? The symbiote or black suit era originally was not some kind of dark period he's reliving. Instead he's acknowledging his bad mood and choosing to cosplay as one of his greatest villains to give into the violence?
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Apr 6, 2024 20:37
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Codependent Poster posted:I like the idea that Peter adopts the black costume for the "I'm gonna seriously gently caress someone up now" part when he takes things seriously. Because serious Spider-Man is loving scary. Just like when Ash Ketchum switches his hat backwards.
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Apr 6, 2024 20:39
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I like that Destiny sucks just as much as Mystique does, but in a different way, tbh
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Apr 6, 2024 21:02
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Angry Salami posted:One of the things about Xavier is that the Silver Age, when he's most unambiguously the 'wise old mentor' of the team... is also the era where he's most morally dubious. And not just stuff like being in love with Jean - that's clearly a one-off bit of weirdness before the characters were really established - but pretty much every issue he's mind-wiping people or deceiving his students. Throw in that he's working with the FBI and keeping his mutant identity secret, and he's really terrible at being the moral heart of the team. Something that never really occurred to me while watching TAS and only really dawned on me through various talks about Xavier and reading some comics myself is how very odd it is that Charles "Martin Luther King Jr." Xavier's great love is the Empress of a space empire. I thought at first maybe the Shi'ar is just an aesthetic but even a few comics reading has dispelled that possibility, they are very much about conquest and domination. To be frank, I'm not even sure what Claremont was thinking with this since "Prof X fucks off to live with this imperialist honey" doesn't really seem to match any tone he was going for. It's not like Xavier dating her is supposed to be some great moral compromise. So it feels like he does plenty of sus stuff that isn't intended to be sus to us, but later writers were very clearly writing with an agenda of tearing him down.
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Apr 6, 2024 21:48
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I'd like to posit my counterpoint, his relationship with Lilandra rules. I think, well, I often mention Savage Dragon is my fav comic, and I think that shows where I'm coming from (I'm crazy - well it's also tied with Wagner Judge Dredd), but I think we shouldn't look at stuff too realistically. I think in the context of the Claremont run (I'm around issue 170), like when she is there helping him mend after the Brood saga and getting used to his new body with physical therapy etc, it just works. She happens to be an empress from a crazy space empire, yes, but I don't look at that as some realistic statement of oh violent crazy empires are cool. Just sometimes you make strange allies etc, and love is strange for sure. I think sometimes things are too "normal", and therefore too predictable, and you've gotta have room for your freak flag to fly, Lilandra rules. Also to be fair, they do have Corsair there to say "I don't think her and her empire are cool at all, adios folks." That said, it's interesting to mention. But I also think on his run, and any great run, is everything in there really making a statement, or needing to match an ideal? I don't think so, considering the kitchen sink kind of stuff that gets thrown in there. If it touches base with some of that at all from time to time that's probably good enough. It is after all very freewheeling, made up as it goes to a large degree. I agree with you on later writers looking at this stuff to tear him down, and not in the spirit it was intended. Heavy Metal fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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Apr 6, 2024 21:53
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Codependent Poster posted:I like the idea that Peter adopts the black costume for the "I'm gonna seriously gently caress someone up now" part when he takes things seriously. Because serious Spider-Man is loving scary. This is literally what happened last year when he went 'bad' after being infected with Norman's sins.
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Apr 6, 2024 22:17
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When's the last time Lilandra and Xavier's daughter showed up? I know she was on Mars for a bit but was she still there during AXE?
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Apr 6, 2024 22:23
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Air Skwirl posted:When's the last time Lilandra and Xavier's daughter showed up? I know she was on Mars for a bit but was she still there during AXE? She was in Red a bit but after the stuff that happened with Brand they refocused the book on Arakko.
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Apr 6, 2024 22:49
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Spider-Man being in the black costume for an arc from April to October 2007 was almost definitely some sort of synergy with Spider-Man 3, which came out in May 2007. That was practically an entirely different era of "Marvel Movie Synergy" compared to 2024, and also different than the Perlmutter-era "let's not put too much emphasis (and definitely don't introduce too many marketable new characters) in the Fantastic Four and X-Men franchises because we don't own the movie rights" which while kind of overblown on the 'practically not publishing any X-Men books at all' tip, was also kind of a different sort of anti-synergy. There's definitely things where characters get a spotlight/costume re-design to match the movies, but even then it's rarely the sort of thing people throw around in terms of changing things to Reset Continuity To Make It Just Like the Movies, especially as the MCU has progressed. A snapshot of where various books were when MCU movies came out: Iron Man (May 2008): Coincided with Matt Fraction's Invincible Iron Man #1, which did set up Stane Jr. as a new antagonist to line up with the movie Incredible Hulk (June 2008): The main Hulk book was retitled Incredible Hercules, the Red Hulk mystery was four issues in Iron Man 2 (May 2010): Tony Stark had just gotten his brain rebooted, and was fighting Justin Hammer again Thor (May 2011): Fraction again gets a new #1, featuring Thor and the rest of the Gods based out of Oklahoma. He's teaming up with SIlver Surfer to eventually fight Galactus, and Loki's a kid. Fear Itself is the summer crossover. Captain America: The First Avenger (July 2011): Ed Brubaker gets another Cap #1, and the story does involve WWII flashbacks. Avengers (May 2012): Bendis's Avengers books feature a bunch of non-movie Avengers, smack in the middle of the Avengers vs. X-Men event Iron Man 3 (May 2013): Kieron Gillen is mid-arc in a story where Iron Man goes to space and finds out he's adopted and eventually meets his secret brother Arno Thor: The Dark World (November 2013): Jason Aaron's Thor run features a Malekith arc in its very long build to War of the Realms. Captain America: The Winter Soldier (April 2014): Rick Remender's Captain America run is at "The Iron Nail", Steve Rogers is about to be turned into an old man and will give the Captain America mantle to Sam Wilson in the next arc. Avengers: Age of Ultron (May 2015): Secret Wars had just launched, so the Avengers had spent the previous two years on a multiversal trolley problem. Captain America is an old man, Tony Stark is "inverted", Thor has lost his hammer and an arm, and all of them are dead at the launch of the movie. Captain America: Civil War (May 2016): A Civil War II event runs at the same time as the movie premiere, but it's mostly Tony Stark vs. Carol Danvers, who had not yet appeared in any movies. Steve Rogers is newly young again, also freshly revealed to be a secret Nazi. Iron Man's main book is focused on him finding his bio mom. Spider-Man is a billionaire CEO dating Mockingbird. Thor Ragnarok (November 2017): Thor is still Jane Foster. Hulk is Amadeus Cho. Bruce Banner is dead. Avengers: Infinity War (April 2018): The Avengers titled are combined into a weekly "No Surrender" book that focuses on the Grandmaster's daughter and Hulk coming back from the dead. Avengers: Endgame (April 2019): Jason Aaron's Avengers book is in the middle of the War of the Realms, and the issue the month that the movie is released is focused primarily on Mephisto's secret evil Squadron Supreme of America. Black Panther has started a Space Empire. Steve Rogers is in jail. Almost all of these changes from the status quo have reverted (and some have informed later movies!) but it's been at least a decade since there seem to be any real hard shifts to actually align with movies coming out. Krakoa is ending in a couple of months and an MCU X-Men movie isn't even on the schedule through 2027.
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Apr 6, 2024 23:45
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I read the first Epic Collection of Agent Venom. It wasn't very good. The whole "Agent Venom" concept seemed strangely unexamined. Like, why do they need an Agent Venom in the first place? Literally everyone involved with the project seemed to understand it was a bad idea. The best explanation given is that at one point it's said Venom is recovering stuff the government shouldn't have let get stolen in the first place. So it's just to save the government from minor embarrassment. The morality of burning up disabled veterans as symbiote hosts is also just kinda not brought up either. The only objection anyone makes to the whole scheme is just the basic idea of using the symbiote at all. Flash wasn't a very compelling lead imo either. The idea that he's like addicted to the symbiote is there, but it's not hit very hard. Which is bad because it's the main motivation for all of his incredibly stupid decisions. Secret identity stuff is usually tiresome, but the way he treats Betty to keep his secret is basically emotionally abusive. And the big teamup with Ghostrider, X-23, and Red Hulk was bad. X-23 and girl Ghostrider are written terribly, the whole inverse souls thing is absolutely baffling and bad, the climax with Red Hulk getting the symbiote and the spirit of vengeance felt insanely contrived and nowhere near as fun as that idea should be.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:32
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NikkolasKing posted:Something that never really occurred to me while watching TAS and only really dawned on me through various talks about Xavier and reading some comics myself is how very odd it is that Charles "Martin Luther King Jr." Xavier's great love is the Empress of a space empire. I thought at first maybe the Shi'ar is just an aesthetic but even a few comics reading has dispelled that possibility, they are very much about conquest and domination. To be frank, I'm not even sure what Claremont was thinking with this since "Prof X fucks off to live with this imperialist honey" doesn't really seem to match any tone he was going for. It's not like Xavier dating her is supposed to be some great moral compromise.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:40
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Nessus posted:As I recall, Xavier kind of had like a flash contact/soulmates thing with Lilandra which appeared to be mutual. As seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScAxY_jx900
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Apr 7, 2024 00:55
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NikkolasKing posted:Something that never really occurred to me while watching TAS and only really dawned on me through various talks about Xavier and reading some comics myself is how very odd it is that Charles "Martin Luther King Jr." Xavier's great love is the Empress of a space empire. I thought at first maybe the Shi'ar is just an aesthetic but even a few comics reading has dispelled that possibility, they are very much about conquest and domination. To be frank, I'm not even sure what Claremont was thinking with this since "Prof X fucks off to live with this imperialist honey" doesn't really seem to match any tone he was going for. It's not like Xavier dating her is supposed to be some great moral compromise. There's a story from the 90s in X-Men Unlimited I liked where Xavier and the X-Men get invited to some court event on a Shi'ar occupied Kree world. Kitty ends up mixed up with the local Kree resistance and starts sympathizing with them, Xavier tries to mediate peace, and it looks like things might end well - but then in the end Lilandra has the Kree rebels imprisoned and endorses Deathbird's harsh policies because, politically, she needs to be seen as a strong empress and keep the Shi'ar hardliners on side with her. And it leads to Xavier and Lilandra breaking up as they finally have to acknowledge that even if there's still an attraction there, their viewpoints and positions are too different to reconcile. And I think that's kinda realistic, that Xavier could convince himself that Lilandra was a reformer and that the Shi'ar weren't that bad as long as he was hanging out with the aristocracy, and for the other X-Men, hanging out with the Shi'ar is kinda a nice vacation from being Feared and Hated - but once they're confronted with the actual ground level reality of Shi'ar rule, it's hard to ignore it anymore.
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Apr 7, 2024 04:56
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Angry Salami posted:There's a story from the 90s in X-Men Unlimited I liked where Xavier and the X-Men get invited to some court event on a Shi'ar occupied Kree world. Kitty ends up mixed up with the local Kree resistance and starts sympathizing with them, Xavier tries to mediate peace, and it looks like things might end well - but then in the end Lilandra has the Kree rebels imprisoned and endorses Deathbird's harsh policies because, politically, she needs to be seen as a strong empress and keep the Shi'ar hardliners on side with her. That is really interestingto hear. Thank you for the info. I guss I'm not the only one who thought it ws a bit odd. Although, my apologies, I got a new question. I read somewhere about the "new Sinister" Or, how he was newly written. "New" might be a relative term but I've finally met him in PoX $4. When did Sinister get so...erm, flamboyant? Which wrier did that? He definitely wasn't like this in TAS. Also, the resurrection explanation at the start of HoX 4 conflates "mind" with "soul." Xavier has a copy of all mutant minds, but souls definitely exist. Wasn't Wolverine just in Hell before this arc? When Wolverine and Kurt die, they talk about the afterlife. Couldn't their souls, their spiritual selves, still be gone and all these grown people are just very elaborate clones? I probably shouldn't think to much about this. And so I have finished the prelude to Krakoa. Now I just have a billion other comics to read. Luckily, I really don't much like the sound of Percy's writing and so I intend to skip his X-Force and Wolverine. Also I don't care about magic so I'm gonna leave Excalibur stuff alone, too. I might come back to both at some future date but I gotta have priorities here if I am gonna try to catch up in any reasonable amount of time. The guide I'm following says Hickman's first 12 issues of X-Men are "worldbuilding." Somebody on reddit was talking about how his stuff delved a lot into intriguing issues like mutant ethics and religion. Maybe it's covered in those issues? In any event, I figure that is where I should go next.
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Apr 7, 2024 08:47
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NikkolasKing posted:That is really interestingto hear. Thank you for the info. I guss I'm not the only one who thought it ws a bit odd. The soul/mind issue is occasionally referenced but never fully addressed, and you can skip absolutely skip Fallen Angels as well. Excalibur is really important for the first big crossover, X of Swords, and you kinda need to read every book for that crossover. Helpfully the number in the crossover is printed on the cover for that issue, and the back page of every X-Men comic has poo poo listed in order including when multiple books come out the same week what order to read them in.
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Apr 7, 2024 09:50
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NikkolasKing posted:Although, my apologies, I got a new question. I read somewhere about the "new Sinister" Or, how he was newly written. "New" might be a relative term but I've finally met him in PoX $4. When did Sinister get so...erm, flamboyant? Which wrier did that? He definitely wasn't like this in TAS.
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Apr 7, 2024 10:06
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I might be wrong but I think Sinister takes a pretty sharp shift towards his current messy bitch persona when he returns from the dead for the Everything is Sinister story in Uncanny X-Men #1 (2011).
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Apr 7, 2024 10:09
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Party Boat posted:I might be wrong but I think Sinister takes a pretty sharp shift towards his current messy bitch persona when he returns from the dead for the Everything is Sinister story in Uncanny X-Men #1 (2011). That sounds right. Until then he was your typical, well, sinister mastermind.
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Apr 7, 2024 14:13
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they never formally address that krakoan resurrection is 100% just copying backup memories into a clone with some bells and whistles. that's for the best, as to do otherwise would undercut the existence of every mutant who died. so, the soul is included despite nothing in the process accounting for it. pixie gets resurrected and keeps her soul dagger so that's that. also, the clone body thing has been used by a lot of characters throughout the marvel universe. i think it happened to war machine at one point, even. no one's gonna open that can of worms.
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Apr 7, 2024 14:28
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There's an entire thing where they argue over mutant clones like Laura and Gabby, and it's like "Motherfuckers, all you are is a bunch of mutant clones of dead people.". Hell is full of your stupid dead, stop it.
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Apr 7, 2024 16:01
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From my recollection the official explanation for clones in 616 is that if the original is dead then the clone gets the original soul(same if the original's mind gets put into a new body like when Xavier got a new body back in the 80's), but if the original is still alive than the clone gets a new soul like with Ben Reilly or Gabby
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Apr 7, 2024 17:31
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drrockso20 posted:From my recollection the official explanation for clones in 616 is that if the original is dead then the clone gets the original soul(same if the original's mind gets put into a new body like when Xavier got a new body back in the 80's), but if the original is still alive than the clone gets a new soul like with Ben Reilly or Gabby And if the original dies after the clone gets its own soul then the clone gets the rare double soul and they feel it instantly like a powerup a la Highlander.
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Apr 7, 2024 17:35
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drrockso20 posted:From my recollection the official explanation for clones in 616 is that if the original is dead then the clone gets the original soul(same if the original's mind gets put into a new body like when Xavier got a new body back in the 80's), but if the original is still alive than the clone gets a new soul like with Ben Reilly or Gabby i don't think whatever this poo poo is applies because the whole laura/talon thing blows that up
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Apr 7, 2024 17:36
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Don't forget that Captain America is technically a clone now as well since he went through the Mutant Resurrection. Is he the only non mutant to go through it? i guess maybe Hydra Cap too since he became Captain Krakoa.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:35
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cap is two steps removed now since he's a mutant clone of the fake person the cosmic cube girl made
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Apr 7, 2024 18:37
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Huh, X-23/Laura isn't even a clone of Logan anymore. https://imgur.com/gallery/1OOijWD Comics! But oh well. I appreciate you all venturing with me down this path of insanity.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:40
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i don't think it is even the first time he's ended up in a clone body. there was a lot of body swapping going on for a while in captain america.
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Apr 7, 2024 18:42
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