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Cojawfee posted:I assume he'd also be busy with the ship instead of boarding. Yeah he actually still has a pretty important thing to do even in a boarding action. I don't mind him being bad with swords.
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Apr 5, 2024 23:11
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Tankbuster posted:lmao what do you expect, i'm getting all my history from reading every third page of this thread
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Apr 6, 2024 01:48
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:It was only technically up to the Emperor, he didn't really get a say. It's up to tradition. Only a member of one of three clans has the right to claim the title based on their status as splinters of the Imperial family. All but two shoguns came from Tokugawa's clan. Nobunaga Oda had made a claim to being a member of the third family that hadn't supplied one before bit was killed before the ceremony. It also bears mentioning that Ieyasu's claim of descent from the Minamoto is questionable, with the recorded family tree possibly being falsified; another contemporary tree was found that conflicted with it the claim of Minamoto descent, instead claiming descent from the Taira (the same clan the Oda were descended from), and we're pretty sure that one was definitely forged. It's entirely possible that the Tokugawa had no discernible ties to any of the three clans with the right to the title (prior to Ieyasu, they went by the name Matsudaira, and they were a locally influential but not particularly powerful clan in a relative backwater), but when Ieyasu started to become a major figure who might benefit more from claiming to be a long-lost descendant of a noble line, he had a few different fake family trees drawn up and picked the one he thought would benefit him the most. As for Nobunaga and Hideyoshi, the reading and discussion I've seen suggests that Nobunaga, while he certainly could have claimed the office of shogun if he wanted (he had both the last Ashikaga shogun and the emperor in his custody, controlled most of the country including the capital, was of Taira descent, and when he got fed up with the current shogun trying to be anything more than a rubber stamp for him and encouraging his enemies to ally against him, he shipped him off to Awaji for a forced retirement and left the office vacant), he never seemed interested in taking the position; if anything, he seemed to want to let the title die out and build his own system from the ground up. Hideyoshi, meanwhile, was well known to be of common descent, so ostensibly he would have been disqualified from the office; however, it wasn't uncommon for a daimyo to have relatives (or even themselves) adopted into a lesser clan for the purposes of inheriting its lands, titles, and other privileges. Some discussion among people more well-read than I that I recall reading years ago suggested that, given Hideyoshi's position, first among the Oda as a prominent general, then as Nobunaga's avenger and successor, he easily could have had himself adopted into a family descended from one of the three entitled clans and 'inherited' the bloodline, as it were. He may have felt similarly to Nobunaga, not seeing the title as particularly necessary or useful to him, especially given his apparently higher ambitions I've seen suggested as his motivation for the Korean invasions.
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Apr 6, 2024 03:48
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Zanna posted:It's entirely possible that the Tokugawa had no discernible ties to any of the three clans with the right to the titl I hate to break it to you, but being it’s a title the only qualification is the social one of getting people to acknowledge it. There is no actual birthright or bloodline requirement. You even halfway cover that same point later in your post with the marriage thing.
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Apr 6, 2024 04:03
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M_Gargantua posted:I hate to break it to you, but being it’s a title the only qualification is the social one of getting people to acknowledge it. There is no actual birthright or bloodline requirement. You even halfway cover that same point later in your post with the marriage thing. Yes, I'm aware; the point I was trying to make was that the 'qualifications' for the title of shogun were far less stringent than is often suggested, and that one of the go-to names for famous shoguns almost certainly faked his way through them, something I wouldn't be surprised to learn was known at the time, but was not openly acknowledged. I also was trying in the second half of my post to make the point that the title was relatively meaningless in and of itself. Nobunaga and Hideyoshi never needed it, and may not have even wanted it.
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Apr 6, 2024 04:23
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The "requirements" were lax in that you'd often see people say "Oh wait.. turns out so and so was actually a nephew of this guy and thus has imperial blood" but by all accounts the Tokugawa clan actual had some verifiable imperial ancestors, even accounting for people trying to suck up to them after the fact.
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Apr 6, 2024 04:30
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Shishkahuben posted:When John goes to spar Yabu and holds his sword like a cutlass, is he even doing that right? He clearly had no idea how to wield a katana, but is that ANY kind of proper technique, or is it meant to show that he's a completely untrained swordsman in any country? I'm not an expert but he looks like he's holding it the way you'd hold a European rapier or epee where it's a long stabbing sword and the whole fight is about reach and controlling the point of the sword. I've seen a video where a katana expert is confronted with a rapier and it goes pretty well for the rapier, mostly because it's a longer sword and therefore you can poke the katana guy before he can slice you. But John isn't an expert and he's not holding a rapier. Sailing in the 16th century was not at all like the organized naval activities we think of the Royal Navy as engaging in 200 or 300 years later. Even in 1800 sailors didn't get any formal training in swordsmanship, and on a 1590s merchant expedition you can expect that the level of military training the crew received was zero. You have to remember that the English had little idea what caused scurvy, and so far foreign trips were typically a disaster. Anyone in England who could avoid getting on a ship to the Japans probably would. The Spanish and Portuguese had better scholarship on the matter in this time period but formal medical training and the dissemination of relevant knowledge from academics to professional sailors might be spotty. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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Apr 6, 2024 07:04
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm not an expert but he looks like he's holding it the way you'd hold a European rapier or epee where it's a long stabbing sword and the whole fight is about reach and controlling the point of the sword. I've seen a video where a katana expert is confronted with a rapier and it goes pretty well for the rapier, mostly because it's a longer sword and therefore you can poke the katana guy before he can slice you. But John isn't an expert and he's not holding a rapier. Pretty much. Also, in that video, the advantage was because the pointed nature of the rapier-like they got (it wasn't a proper rapier) meant it was hard to judge the distance - but the katana got a decent advantage due to how relatively easy it was to parry away. However, keep in mind this isn't really a merchant expedition. It's a privateer tasked with disrupting the enemies of the Dutch. They would have some military training, but not much at all. He handled the naginata fairly well in that episode, so again it is most likely he would've practiced the most basic of anti-boarding drills using a boarding pike, which would've been very effective at holding key sections of the ship.
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Apr 6, 2024 07:48
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Jamwad Hilder posted:The "requirements" were lax in that you'd often see people say "Oh wait.. turns out so and so was actually a nephew of this guy and thus has imperial blood" but by all accounts the Tokugawa clan actual had some verifiable imperial ancestors, even accounting for people trying to suck up to them after the fact. Shogun Ralph
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Apr 6, 2024 08:11
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Another note is when Blackthorne has his shirt off in the diving scene, he has a lot of scars that look like slices - IE melee range combat. And he lived. So he's not like totally incompetent - he was also very drunk looking and extremely disillusioned when confronted for the sword scene.
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Apr 6, 2024 09:17
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I also think that he knew this wasn't a real fight or training, so why not humor Yabu and show how it's done in Barbarian Land. Blackthorne has seen plenty of samurai swordplay to know how it's supposed to be held. Either that or the showmakers wanted a quick visual gag.
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Apr 6, 2024 09:29
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Blackthorne probably isn’t a terrible brawler with a sword, but he’s not a capital-S Swordsman. Neither he nor William Adams, the real historical figure, were nobles. Nobles make their money off rent and can spend their lives practicing for war; commoners have to make a living by doing stuff. So he has a lot of practical knowledge in general and a lot of rare and valuable naval knowledge in particular but he’s no fencer. Buntaro OTOH is an ice-cold killer who has no skills except chopping people up with swords, which he is very good at. The only way Blackthorne wins a real fight with Buntaro is ambushing him or Indiana Jonesing it. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 10:08 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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Apr 6, 2024 10:00
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look im pretty sure if you're getting into a sea battle in 1590 - 1600 the absolute one dude you do not want getting merked is the guy who knows how to get home anjin-san absolutely sat in the fridge in the captain's cabin any time swords came into play
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Apr 6, 2024 10:06
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update: now he sits in the fridge and casts summon fuji
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Apr 6, 2024 10:07
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Eau de MacGowan posted:look im pretty sure if you're getting into a sea battle in 1590 - 1600 the absolute one dude you do not want getting merked is the guy who knows how to get home I don’t think this is true. I think it’s projecting 21st century rationalism onto 16th century dudes to whom “pick up a cutlass and get stuck in with the rest of us or you’re a coward and we hate you” is a more important rule than “FFS don’t let the navigator get merked”.
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Apr 6, 2024 10:10
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I realize this will out me as a terrible tv watcher who should be ashamed of their bad taste, but I chuckled at "Well this appears to be occurring." If there was a quip like that every episode that would terrible, but come on, everyone gets one freebie right?
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Apr 6, 2024 11:34
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I didn't even notice it and I'm at least an above average TV watcher
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Apr 6, 2024 11:35
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It was fine. Just because the Marvelization of dialogue has broken our precious cynical brains doesn't take away the fact that Blackthrone was checked out in that moment, and the line conveyed it.
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Apr 6, 2024 14:00
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Arglebargle III posted:I'm not an expert but he looks like he's holding it the way you'd hold a European rapier or epee where it's a long stabbing sword and the whole fight is about reach and controlling the point of the sword. I've seen a video where a katana expert is confronted with a rapier and it goes pretty well for the rapier, mostly because it's a longer sword and therefore you can poke the katana guy before he can slice you. But John isn't an expert and he's not holding a rapier. Yeah, that was my thought as well. IIRC that particular stance, with the sword high and directly forwards, as well as the relaxed handshake grip, is something you can find in the Spanish style of rapier fencing. But yeah, it's kind of awkward because you're supposed to wrap your fingers around the crossguard for better control, and a katana doesn't have a crossguard of that style. Overall it struck me as something like "was at one point shown how to do it (or watched it), but hasn't kept up with training at all since then"
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Apr 6, 2024 14:59
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dude learned portuguese somewhere, somehow, so he's probably seen dudes fight with a sword, but has never done it himself. If the Erasmus really raided portuguese settlements across Asia Blackthorne almost certainly would have been involved based on the number of the crew, and they probably did it with clubs, boarding pikes, and pistols/rifles.
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Apr 6, 2024 16:29
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Cojawfee posted:I assume he'd also be busy with the ship instead of boarding. So yeah, him not being good with a sword makes sense. E: I'm pretty sure but not positive that "pilot" eventually becomes the "sailing master" of the napoleonic era Royal Navy which would make him a warrant officer and nominally a gentleman, even if the master can come up through the ranks of sailors and so isn't socially a gentleman. Either way, 200 years earlier and without the kind of education and rank structure of the Royal Navy, he is probably even more valuable as a rare skilled resource in the 1600s than his later counterparts. E2: I think they mention in the first episode that at sea, Blackthorne is actually in charge of everything because in the 1600s, the captain isn't actually a professional sailor in any way. E3: all of which to say, Blackthorne's place in any naval action whatsoever is on the quarterdeck. Which means he can definitely shoot, has rudimentary pike and sword practice, and has probably defended that deck at some point, but is not a professional fighter. He has so many better things to be doing with his time. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 17:01 on Apr 6, 2024 |
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Apr 6, 2024 16:34
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Ravenfood posted:Also, skilled pilots were immensely valuable resources. If his ship is initiating a boarding action, he should be about as far from the action as possible and if his ship is being boarded, he is definitely in the class of people who the attackers would rather capture/surrender. When he is talking with Rodriguez you can get a sense of how important they are and how much cross-national, cross-religion professional respect there is. Like the real guy he was a pilot master of the fleet, so he was even more important
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Apr 6, 2024 17:07
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We are spoiled with modern tech, but a skilled Pilot can be thought of to be equivalent in value to a ~$1.5M aerospace navigation box of the modern era. You don't put your million dollar computer in your $25M dollar ship and then put it somewhere it can be broken. The Cannon, powder, shot, and assorted small arms probably cost another $15M modern equivalent. (The Erasmus in the show is based on the Dutch Liefde, a 300 ton, 18-gun Galleon)
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Apr 6, 2024 17:20
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M_Gargantua posted:We are spoiled with modern tech, but a skilled Pilot can be thought of to be equivalent in value to a ~$1.5M aerospace navigation box of the modern era. Yeah, but you don't feed a navigation box salted meat and hardtack for 4 months and expect it to run and peak efficiency either.
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Apr 6, 2024 17:48
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Beefeater1980 posted:I don’t think this is true. I think it’s projecting 21st century rationalism onto 16th century dudes to whom “pick up a cutlass and get stuck in with the rest of us or you’re a coward and we hate you” is a more important rule than “FFS don’t let the navigator get merked”. Is this not just projecting some modern idea that 16th century people were stupid compared to us?
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Apr 6, 2024 18:01
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I know it was supposed to be dramatic, but I ended up laughing out loud at Nagakado accidentally killing himself by slipping on a wet rock. It reminded me of Ted slipping on the floor in Breaking Bad. It was out of the blue.
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Apr 6, 2024 18:05
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Beefeater1980 posted:I don’t think this is true. I think it’s projecting 21st century rationalism onto 16th century dudes to whom “pick up a cutlass and get stuck in with the rest of us or you’re a coward and we hate you” is a more important rule than “FFS don’t let the navigator get merked”. Your man is going to fight if need be, but he's not swining over the side in the first wave.
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Apr 6, 2024 18:14
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Stegosnaurlax posted:Your man is going to fight if need be, but he's not swining over the side in the first wave. And the idea that different senses of what courage and manliness and honor means "well, we boarded so everyone charge" just makes it seem like the 17th century people were idiots. It's not like the quarterdeck was a particularly safe place to be in a fight: you're still in a raised, visible position that people are trying to attack. You can still easily be shot, and you still need to try to defend yourself and your ship. You can't be a coward, but that doesn't mean you have to throw yourself away either, because you have duties and performing that duty is also important. Defending and manning the quarterdeck while under fire is more than enough to make him not a coward, and that's what would matter.
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Apr 6, 2024 18:41
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:wouldn’t he have used a boarding pike or something, for melee if anything? Comparing his "eh gently caress it" basically competent polearm handling (har har har) in the ambush to him looking like a dumbass with the sword might suggest that.
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Apr 6, 2024 21:39
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The contrast between colonization between Japan and the Phillipines is staggering. Can anyone fill me in on why Europan colonization wss so much more influential in the Phillipines?
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Apr 6, 2024 23:34
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M_Gargantua posted:We are spoiled with modern tech, but a skilled Pilot can be thought of to be equivalent in value to a ~$1.5M aerospace navigation box of the modern era. There were a bunch of people that helped make sure the ships didn't crash into rocks during the age of sail. You had the pilot, helmsman, ship master, look out, etc. Often the 'pilot' was a local that just knew the land.
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Apr 6, 2024 23:36
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Doltos posted:There were a bunch of people that helped make sure the ships didn't crash into rocks during the age of sail. You had the pilot, helmsman, ship master, look out, etc. Often the 'pilot' was a local that just knew the land. E: and as pointed out upthread, master of the fleet.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:33
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Yeah pilot in the book context is drastically under representing his actual job skills. Also maybe part of the whole “were traders not privateers” cover story but I don’t think they really explore that at all.
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Apr 7, 2024 00:49
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Doltos posted:There were a bunch of people that helped make sure the ships didn't crash into rocks during the age of sail. You had the pilot, helmsman, ship master, look out, etc. Often the 'pilot' was a local that just knew the land. The book makes clear that pilots rely on other pilot’s written notes, which are treated as trade secrets, and help them get from place to place without the ability to determine longitude. That wasn’t solved for another 225ish years. So they were cherished, as the only possible men who could guide you to a land. Blackthorne, in the book, only made it to Japan because of someone stealing and selling a journal to the Dutch. And he was heading a fleet, which admittedly didn’t get lost in the pacific, but hung around the horn of South America too long and got hosed up by the Portuguese. His ship was the only that made it. Enderzero fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Apr 7, 2024 |
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Apr 7, 2024 01:43
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Scoss posted:Is this not just projecting some modern idea that 16th century people were stupid compared to us? Not stupid, just operating on a different value system. A while back the milhist thread had a deep dive into mercenaries in the 17thC through their diaries and so on, and “keep a good reputation and don’t ever get a rep as a coward” seemed like their #1 priority because it was so socially important. For a ship that would do some fighting, I think everyone on board would be expected to do their part. Stegosnaurlax posted:Your man is going to fight if need be, but he's not swining over the side in the first wave. Yeah this basically.
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Apr 7, 2024 02:14
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Enderzero posted:The book makes clear that pilots rely on other pilot’s written notes, which are treated as trade secrets, and help them get from place to place without the ability to determine longitude. That wasn’t solved for another 225ish years. So they were cherished, as the only possible men who could guide you to a land. I think that's over simplifying navigation development a bit. Jupiter navigation was around 1610, the Mercator Projection and triangulation was 50 years before that, the astrolabe and logarithms were used throughout the 17th century, and printed maps were all the rage from the mid 1500s and onward. It also didn't make sense to keep trade secrets from fellow navigators as various crowns and guilds paid for them.
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Apr 7, 2024 02:24
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AFewBricksShy posted:I was looking at IMBD and it's kind of blowing my mind that Tadanobu Asano, (Yabushige) is the dude with the scarred face from Ichi the killer. You just blew my mind. I never would have recognized him.
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Apr 7, 2024 02:24
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Dante posted:You just blew my mind. I never would have recognized him. I had to have this pointed out to me as well. Makes me want to go back and watch his filmography.
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Apr 7, 2024 02:51
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Doltos posted:I think that's over simplifying navigation development a bit. Jupiter navigation was around 1610, the Mercator Projection and triangulation was 50 years before that, the astrolabe and logarithms were used throughout the 17th century, and printed maps were all the rage from the mid 1500s and onward. It also didn't make sense to keep trade secrets from fellow navigators as various crowns and guilds paid for them. Huh, that’s interesting. I freely admit my info comes solely from the books, which seems to indicate that they live and die by ledgers from various navigators, but I know Clavell has been known to bend the facts!
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Apr 7, 2024 04:13
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There's a great paper on Social Science History about how ships in the 1600s would change routes, avoid patrols, etc based on who they shared ports with. Essentially they document that captains would go to busy ports and then alter their routes depending on who was there at the same time. So word of mouth and connections like that were the bread and butter of sea trade.
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Apr 7, 2024 05:20
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