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Those swishes Mariko does with her silk whatever it is are pure 
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Apr 17, 2024 07:34
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Aurubin posted:While in line for the "what a twist!" thing, I just think a Toranaga false flag has too much potential for failure. But who knows, maybe they'll sell it well if it's that. It's a fun idea, but if Toranaga has access to an untraceable shinobi group in the heart of Osaka, including one guy who is able to successfully disguise himself as one of Ishido's retainers, surely there's other, less convoluted, uses he could have put them to. Anyway, brilliant episode. The final image will stay with me for a long time, heartbreaking, horrible, and weirdly beautiful.
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Apr 17, 2024 07:37
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Stegosnaurlax posted:Those swishes Mariko does with her silk whatever it is are pure Thousand years of samurai heritage body language flex.
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Apr 17, 2024 07:41
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Cojawfee posted:A great episode, but I just want to talk about how much I love when Yabu gets surprised, cocks his head to the side and says "oh?" He had maybe half a dozen fantastic moments this episode that were just sighs, grunts, exasperated noises, etc.
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Apr 17, 2024 07:51
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I love the sigh-grunt "Here's how you bow properly." And he quickly realizes, hold on, gently caress that, I'm getting my assistant to teach you.
Nice Tuckpointing! fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 07:55
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MikeC posted:
It's basically a matter of appearances and legalism: Yes, everybody in court are de facto hostages. But Ishido does have a legal de jure excuse to call and keep them there, and that is important. It's the basic concept of feudalism: Ishido can't keep everybody in line with raw force, he's only in charge with their tacit support. But they only support him as long as the stability by his government is preferable to rolling the dice with a revolt/civil war. An important condition of this support is that Ishido adhere to certain laws and customs, most of which are designed to protect the other lords from arbitrary tyranny. At the time Mariko enters, it's in a bit of a superposition. Ishido is technically acting beyond what's allowed, but it's in a grey area because nobody has forced the issue yet so no law or custom had been obviously broken. Basically, nobody is prevented from leaving as long as nobody tries to leave. If somebody were to be prevented from leaving by force without a valid legal reason, that would be obvious tyranny and the lords would have no choice but to revolt against Ishido just out of simple self-preservation. But the lords don't really want to revolt unless they really have to, so they're kinda letting Ishido get away with it for the moment by not forcing the issue. Any one of the lords could have done what Mariko did, but they all had too much to lose to make that first step.
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Apr 17, 2024 09:38
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On a side note, I'm not a religious dude, but I'm impressed with what they have done in regards to faith and Mariko and Alvito's relationship. In his heart, Alvito is trying to be a true believer, but he's in the wrong world for that.
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Apr 17, 2024 10:48
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Our favorite scumbag the Yabster
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Apr 17, 2024 11:08
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Anyone else notice how big Blackthornes hands are? I know Anna Sawai's 5 foot nothing. But he's got mad sausage finger sasquatch hands.
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Apr 17, 2024 11:12
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That’s what all those eel pies does to a growing boy
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Apr 17, 2024 11:31
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MikeC posted:I have not read the books at all but I agree with you on all points but after combing through several previous episodes I cannot find definitive proof either way. The shinobi do explicitly spare anyone they can. As they crept through the room with the guards, they simply checked everyone to see who it was. Only when the guard woke did they kill them. Not only did they spare the consort and the newest child of Toranaga, they spared everyone in that room after checking to see who they were. you're thinking too rationally and logically. remember this is high society and they play by dumb high society rules. mariko's dad might have been a traitor, but he was still an important nobleman with a powerful name and a storied lineage. if they utterly discredit that entire line for all time, then they open themselves up to that same treatment by precedent. plus, as she said, her dad rose up and killed a tyrannical monster (not-Nobunaga) and did a good thing that only went bad because the Taiko (not-Hideyoshi) got to him before other anti-not-Nobunaga people could back him up. this is also part of why her killing herself would be an act of "revenge" - she is a well respected noble lady from a well respected family, her death would lead to the final end of the noble family (because her kid's a Toda, not an Akechi, and was never raised Akechi so will only receive the negatives of that reputation) while also being a shock to every other noble who generally likes her. high society must keep her alive as she has committed no crimes and she must not be allowed to protest the deaths of her clan because then people are going to start talking about how just maybe Akechi was right to kill the pre-Taiko leader and that'd gently caress up the entire legitimacy of the Taiko which in turn fucks up his heir and the regents who rely on the heir for their own legitimate rule of all Japan. most importantly she must be kept alive because they would feel bad about her dying. the only scheme from Akechi Jinsai here was to marry her away to keep her safe. it's Toranaga that is making best use of her to destabilise the regime.
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Apr 17, 2024 11:42
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It doesn't bother me and I wouldn't want the show going out of its way to expulcate itself since it's just reflecting historic class differences, but it's funny how Ishido coming from peasantry is an accepted negative trait among the protagonists.
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Apr 17, 2024 12:14
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After episode 1, I thought Yabushige reminded me strongly of Ashur from Spartacus, and boy did he live up to that this week.
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Apr 17, 2024 12:17
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I would disagree, Yabu is actually likable and not a rapist.
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Apr 17, 2024 12:26
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TyrantWD posted:After episode 1, I thought Yabushige reminded me strongly of Ashur from Spartacus, and boy did he live up to that this week. Is it me or did Yabushige get played like a fiddle? Toranaga must have known he would be employed to do some underhanded poo poo that would force things to a head, Moriko being the plan A and B, and him being plan C.
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Apr 17, 2024 12:32
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snoremac posted:It doesn't bother me and I wouldn't want the show going out of its way to expulcate itself since it's just reflecting historic class differences, but it's funny how Ishido coming from peasantry is an accepted negative trait among the protagonists. Nah I totally agree. Dipshit customs like extreme classism should be wiped out. Classism in regards to the burakumin was a thing into the 21st century in Japan. There are still people who think like that, believe it or not
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Apr 17, 2024 12:45
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What stands out to me there is that the Taiko was explicitly a peasant too and rose up to his exalted position and retained his beloved status even after his death (and pulled the ladder up after him by forbidding other peasants from doing it). But I guess the contradictory values of extolling the virtues of the Taiko for his achievements while simultaneourly condemning the high ranked Ishido for his origins is kinda par for the course when it comes to the hypocrisy of those at the top of any given society.
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Apr 17, 2024 12:50
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Stegosnaurlax posted:Is it me or did Yabushige get played like a fiddle? Toranaga must have known he would be employed to do some underhanded poo poo that would force things to a head, Moriko being the plan A and B, and him being plan C. Absolutely. Torunaga made clear in the previous episode how predictable Yabu (and also Blackthorne) are and used them like his trained hawks to do his bidding without them even realizing it.
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Apr 17, 2024 14:02
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Why was that ninja tapping his shoulder to ya boy Yabushige?
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Apr 17, 2024 15:21
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He was counting out a pre-arranged segment of time before proceeding with the attack, seemed like.
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Apr 17, 2024 15:23
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ManSedan posted:Why was that ninja tapping his shoulder to ya boy Yabushige? I thought he was referencing the two arrows on Ishido's Crest, signalling who sent him without ever saying it out loud. Iirc the creat is the tail end of two arrows facing downward. That's why he was tapping with two fingers together on his collar multiple times.
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Apr 17, 2024 15:36
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I also took it as a timing thing as well as a form of intimidation/focus to keep Yabu still.
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Apr 17, 2024 15:39
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:He was counting out a pre-arranged segment of time before proceeding with the attack, seemed like. Ha! That’s straight out of the book, too. Yeah, he was counting down time.
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Apr 17, 2024 15:41
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snoremac posted:It doesn't bother me and I wouldn't want the show going out of its way to expulcate itself since it's just reflecting historic class differences, but it's funny how Ishido coming from peasantry is an accepted negative trait among the protagonists. I was pretty sure that Ishido comes from lesser nobility, and he is not a peasant by origin. The slight was more indirect attacking his lower rank without referring to him explicitly. However, someone is gonna have to back me up on this because I might be misremembering
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Apr 17, 2024 15:54
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Ishido does have a peasant background in the show; not sure if that’s the case in the novel or not, or whether it matches his historical analogue.
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Apr 17, 2024 16:06
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPjrKUVWj8A
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Apr 17, 2024 16:17
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Jerusalem posted:What stands out to me there is that the Taiko was explicitly a peasant too and rose up to his exalted position and retained his beloved status even after his death (and pulled the ladder up after him by forbidding other peasants from doing it). But I guess the contradictory values of extolling the virtues of the Taiko for his achievements while simultaneourly condemning the high ranked Ishido for his origins is kinda par for the course when it comes to the hypocrisy of those at the top of any given society. When stuff like that happened in most societies, the ladder pulling is more or less a required component of having your claims respected and including your family line in the nobility. Without it, the class system breaks down.
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Apr 17, 2024 16:23
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Yngwie Mangosteen posted:When stuff like that happened in most societies, the ladder pulling is more or less a required component of having your claims respected and including your family line in the nobility. Without it, the class system breaks down. Do you want to still have a hierarchy now you are at the top of it y/n?
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Apr 17, 2024 17:25
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Stegosnaurlax posted:Is it me or did Yabushige get played like a fiddle? Toranaga must have known he would be employed to do some underhanded poo poo that would force things to a head, Moriko being the plan A and B, and him being plan C. It was all the same plan. Yabushige selling out is necessary for people to believe Toranaga's defeat is complete. The key to understanding the whole plan is that dialog at the very start of the series where Toranaga tells the Taiko he doesn't want to be sole regent because that would unite his enemies against him. Ishido is able to take everyone hostage and even kill Sugiyama because they need to be together to face the big bad Toranaga. But now Toranaga seems defeated. See, even his biggest vassal and his hatamoto are here pimping themselves out. The reason Mariko's situation puts Ishido in a bad spot is because everyone buys that Toranaga is defeated.
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Apr 17, 2024 17:27
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Jerusalem posted:What stands out to me there is that the Taiko was explicitly a peasant too and rose up to his exalted position and retained his beloved status even after his death (and pulled the ladder up after him by forbidding other peasants from doing it). But I guess the contradictory values of extolling the virtues of the Taiko for his achievements while simultaneourly condemning the high ranked Ishido for his origins is kinda par for the course when it comes to the hypocrisy of those at the top of any given society. This is a reflection of the real history, by the by. During the course of Oda Nobunaga's initial push to unify Japan under his rule, he acquired two lieutenants: Toyotomi Hideyoshi, a peasant who rose to become a Samurai and eventually a military and political leader through pure merit, and Tokugawa Ieyasu, heir to a minor cadet branch of the venerable Minamoto clan, some of the bluest blood you could find in the entire nobility. When Nobunaga was killed, Hideyoshi rose to supreme power through a military campaign that both avenged his master and crushed all resistance to his rule, leading him to be named Imperial Regent by the Emperor. The traditional wisdom is that by all rights he should have been granted the title of Shogun, but he was refused because he wasn't born into the Samurai. He later "retired" granting him the title Taiko (Eh? EH?) so he could pass the office of Regent to his son and create dynastic rule for his family, but he retained political control. The pulling-up-the-ladder social reforms were one of his most major policy moves while he was at the peak of his power, alongside the invasion of Korea. I've seen at least some historians speculate that his moves were less about ingratiating himself with the nobles by playing along with their classism and more about centralization of political power. To whit, one of his main ideas was the "Great Sword Hunt," which disarmed the peasantry, robbing the ability to climb the social ladder through martial success and shattering their ability to revolt against unjust rule, but just as crucially denying their daimyo's the ability to use peasant levies as a military resource. He also melted down the confiscated weapons and made them into a statue of Buddah as a flex, because that was the kind of dude he was. He also forbade Samurai to live among the peasantry, legally requiring them to take up residence in castle towns, and restricted the movement of peasants, binding them to the land of their daimyos like serfs. This had the effect of driving a wedge between the military and workers within the then-loose caste system and putting an even greater barrier between the lowborn and any kind of advancement, but it ALSO puts a significantly larger financial burden directly onto the nobles who were now his vassals, restricting their labor pool and demanding they shoulder the expense of caring for their soldiers more directly. The most fun twist is that once Hideyoshi died (I guess maybe spoilers since stuff might come up in the show's ending?) and his brother in arms Tokugawa succeeded in his political and military campaign to replace him, being granted the rank of Shogun, Tokugawa quintupled down on those reforms. Some historians believe that despite how close they had been as Nobunaga's left and right hands, Tokugawa never completely got over the fact that a commoner had risen to rule all of Japan and he'd been forced to serve him, so he took those already oppressive anti-mobility reforms and refined them into the most rigid caste system in Japan's history which endured for 300 years until the Meiji Restoration. So, who is most responsible for ensuring another Hideyoshi wouldn't appear and the highborne would retain their rarified status in the coming centuries? Hideyoshi himself for striking the first blows against those who might follow in his footsteps in the name of real politick, or his dear friend Tokugawa who cranked those blows up to 15 for the sake of his own deeply held belief in the superiority of his own class? The answer is yes. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 17:37
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Because this show is so meticulously researched and executed, I love finding anachronisms, because they're so goddamn rare. I think there were two this time: the shinobi were wearing stereotypical ninja gear, which I'm pretty sure is not how shinobi actually dressed; that outfit comes from what stagehands wore during kabuki; you were supposed to politely ignore the masked men in black moving the scenery around, which is why it would be very surprising if one of them suddenly drew a blade and attacked a character. And I'm also pretty sure that Martin should not have recited the Lord's Prayer in Portugese in the flashback. Praying in the vernacular language before Vatican II? Heresy, my dude. (And a weird mistake to make, if it was one, after they made such an affecting scene of Mariko reciting it in Latin while Blackthorne recited it in Portugese earlier in the show.) Anyway, drat, great episode. Sort of shocking how many people didn't get what was going on with Mariko ripping aside the polite social fictions and neatly impaling Ishido on a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't fork, but it's not the show's fault. Also, I haven't read the book and I've been avoiding looking up what happens in order to remain unspoiled, but after the ending, I just had to look. I was really hoping against hope that Mariko's death was a fakeout and she'd survive, just greivously wounded or something. drat, what a bummer. Even though it's her personal best case scenario, I'm enough of a happy ending lover that I was really hoping Blackthorne could get her on a ship and they could go find somewhere they could both actually be happy. CapnAndy fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 17:38
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i buy the shinobi being masked attackers - not wearing black, but beige that blends in more indoors - when the point is for them to be unidentified while doing their thing, wearing layers that are removable so they can blend in later plus eschewing armour to not make noise, for this kind of large coordinated group action this makes sense as opposed to the former idea of the ninja as the individual stealth infiltrator and espionage agent - these aren’t like the earlier episode where a deep cover agent in serving clothes was activated
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Apr 17, 2024 17:48
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MikeC posted:
The Shinobu aren't there to kill Mariko. They're there to capture her and keep her someplace safe. Then the next morning when she isn't seen leaving everyone outside the Torunaga compound would think she backed down and acceded to Ishido. one thing the books goes into but the show only brushed against. Despite her family name, she's one of the most respected samurai-ko at the time. She's an exemplar of every virtue a woman was viewed to require. Skilled at fighting, poetry, and courtly etiquette. She honored her lord's command to not commit suicide despite the terrible dishonor she lived under, which was more than most men would bear. And she was Catholic, making her the darling of the growing Carholic contingent of Japan. ishido didn't give then permission to leave he allowed to apply for a permit to. He's a bureaucrat, he'll tie up the approval process for months until it's convenient for him One interesting change the show made from the real world, probably made to muddy the water on intentions. The real world Ochiba wasn't Nobugana's daughter but his niece. Her father rebelled against Nobunaga and was destroyed when she was a child. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 19:15
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Right, Mariko directly states while they are fleeing that she cannot go for the gate as she would risk capture. This is why they go to the storeroom. Also we see the first ninja try to grab her, not stab her or blow up her room. .
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Apr 17, 2024 19:58
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And Yabu babbles,"Ahhh... we should surely go for the gate, right!?!" because part of his job if they didn't capture her in her room was to direct her that way (the obvious "escape") if she didn't go herself where they would be waiting to catch her. You can see the panic setting in when he realizes she wants them to hole up in an actually pretty secure location, and he ignores Blackthorne begging with him to help move the big storage chest up against the door, both for fear of the explosives being set as well as not wanting to hinder the break-in... which of course becomes a moot point when Mariko chooses to stand by the door and let it kill her to fulfill her original intention to die in service of Toranaga.
Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 20:08
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this is some good poo poo
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Apr 17, 2024 20:39
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Are there practical or cultural reasons that samurai re-sheath their swords immediately after use? Part of me always wonders how much blood is coating the inside of their scabbards after the lil flick they do. Probably just artistic license, it just stands out a little bit. Also holy freaking crap this was the best episode yet!
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Apr 17, 2024 20:52
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I thought the flick was to get the blood off, though realistically it wouldn't get it all. As to resheathing, I always assumed it was to do with honor and the importance of swords. I.e. they are not to be drawn unless for imminent use. I don't actually know, however.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:18
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Shishkahuben posted:Are there practical or cultural reasons that samurai re-sheath their swords immediately after use? Part of me always wonders how much blood is coating the inside of their scabbards after the lil flick they do. Probably just artistic license, it just stands out a little bit. Because it looks awesome. That first samurai super quickly slicing down those two dudes Mariko told him to kill was loving great. I liked how he was just some random mook Mariko controls, not given a name, unceremoniously shot full of arrows a few seconds later.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:25
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Shishkahuben posted:Are there practical or cultural reasons that samurai re-sheath their swords immediately after use? Part of me always wonders how much blood is coating the inside of their scabbards after the lil flick they do. Probably just artistic license, it just stands out a little bit. There's actually a specific name for that little flick move, chiburi, more or less literally meaning "shaking off the blood." In reality a samurai would have a special cloth dedicated to wiping off any excess blood after the flick, but the advent of Samurai film, specifically the insanely popular series Zatoichi about a blind samurai typically omitted that element for coolness reasons. Certain old documents also make references to wiping off remaining blood on pieces of the samurai's clothing, though this was considered vulgur and not to be done unless necessary. Regardless, all of these practices being done before an immediate re-sheathing of the sword post-combat are linked to one of the most popular sword arts of this time period, battojutsu, also known as iajutsu in modern times. This is the "quick draw" style of samurai swordsmanship media is so in love with, with numerous potential techniques to be performed straight out of the scabbard. This style was extremely popular among the Nobility and higher-ranked Samurai during and after the Warring States period because the constant fighting for territory and influence meant that one tended to expect attack at almost any time, even when in the comfort of one's own home. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 21:25
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