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Majorian posted:I do not think that anyone here is actually making that argument. If anyone is, feel free to quote their posts. Halloween Jack posted:Also, when did God come down from heaven and write in stone that Trump will be worse than Biden on Israel? I see no reason to believe that's the case. Trump doesn't care about anything but his public image and feeling important; that could well be more responsive to public pressure than Biden, who is a gleefully genocidal advocate for Israel and doesn't appear to care what anyone thinks. Trump, as far as I know, hasn't committed blood libel against Palestinians.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:24
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That's questioning if he would be worse. That's not arguing that he would be better. Nowhere in that post are they arguing that Trump would do more to stop the genocide. \/\/\/that's closer, certainly, but as you seem to be suggesting, that's also kind of a one-off argument that other people who oppose Biden's support for Israel aren't making here. \/\/\/ Majorian fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 01:26
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Majorian posted:I do not think that anyone here is actually making that argument. If anyone is, feel free to quote their posts. This was a few pages ago but was part of what sparked the current discussion koolkal posted:Because we've seen 6 months of Biden and it's clear where he stands? Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos. I think it's a reasonably good faith reading of this post to conclude that they're arguing that Trump is likely to be better on Israel/Palestine than Biden, which is completely buck wild Although of course they were a poster who posted this then bounced from the thread, causing people to read other people's arguments as saying the same thing as them, so I think people feel like there are more people making that argument than there actually are. I think they were the only one specifically going this far
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Apr 18, 2024 01:26
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Majorian posted:That's questioning if he would be worse. That's not arguing that he would be better. Nowhere in that post are they arguing that Trump would do more to stop the genocide. Please stop strawmanning. He literally made arguments as to why he thought he'd be better, referencing places where he thought Biden did or is likely worse worse. Also Koolkat's 'he's a wildcard' argument is so wild because Trump has made it extremely clear where he stands on genociding the Palestinians. Hint: He is SUPER for it. Kchama fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 01:29
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Kchama posted:He literally made arguments as to why he thought he'd be better, referencing places where he thought Biden did or is likely worse worse. Again, I am speaking in response to someone who claimed that... quote:I'm of the mind that "Genocide Joe" is just a convenient way to peel away voters. ...and... quote:There is no protest vote. There are people looking to peel away voters using very specific language and framing, and there are the people who follow that Pied Piper song, never thinking beyond the end of their noses. That is an extremely broad brush with which to paint the entirety of the left-wing opposition to the Biden Administration's policy towards Israel.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:34
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Those goalposts look pretty heavy, might be easier if you stopped moving them.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:36
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Majorian posted:Again, I am speaking in response to someone who claimed that... You were replying to Failboattootoot posted:If those legitimate complaints are intermingled with any sort of "Trump will do more to stop the genocide" then yes. and they were the one who provided the example that you were saying wasn't defending Trump or calling him better than Biden.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:40
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Kchama posted:You were replying to Fair enough, that's an example of someone making that argument, and I appreciate Failboattootoot for pointing out an example. I don't agree with the argument that, given Trump's unpredictability as President, he would likely be better than Biden as far as treatment of Palestine is concerned. My overall point, however, is that I really object to the suggestion that people who call Biden "Genocide Joe" are just in it to hurt Biden and not to legitimately oppose his policies towards Israel and Palestine. Majorian fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 01:47
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Morrow posted:I appreciate your work and knowledge injecting actual content and news into this undeserving cesspit.
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Apr 18, 2024 02:04
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Lummus is still back at Blount island in JAX. Bet the Lummus isn’t going. Found out what happened. Bobo was the original vessel. The Bobo went out and came back. I was tracking the Bobo at the beginning. Looks like they had an engine room fire. https://www.military.com/daily-news...her-delays.html Lummus must be loading in JAX to replace the Bobo. Edit: I did Cadet sea days on the Lummus, Saipan to shipyard in Norfolk. Long loving crossing in the pacific on that ship, like 35 days. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 02:31
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Neat Bee posted:Voting for genocide because you believe its the lesser-evil just means you are a Nazi who believes in pragmatism. Voting for liberals to stop fascists is fascism. Voting for fascists on the other hand, totally not fascist at all. Cool and good actually. Got it.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:08
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Majorian posted:Fair enough, that's an example of someone making that argument, and I appreciate Failboattootoot for pointing out an example. I don't agree with the argument that, given Trump's unpredictability as President, he would likely be better than Biden as far as treatment of Palestine is concerned. My overall point, however, is that I really object to the suggestion that people who call Biden "Genocide Joe" are just in it to hurt Biden and not to legitimately oppose his policies towards Israel and Palestine. Is it that you're incapable of basic reading comprehension, or of asking any question in good faith? You do this over and over again, in thread after thread, saying "Well I haven't seen anyone saying that", when it is there plain as day, and then when it's pointed out to you you either move the goalposts or say "Ah well, nevertheless". It's like clockwork. What do you get out of this? What do you think you are adding to the conversation other than convincing everyone you're either dishonest or illiterate? It would have taken you less than five minutes to read back through the thread and find those examples yourself, but no, every time, others have to find them for you.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:11
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Majestic posted:Is it that you're incapable of basic reading comprehension, or of asking any question in good faith? You do this over and over again, in thread after thread, saying "Well I haven't seen anyone saying that", when it is there plain as day, and then when it's pointed out to you you either move the goalposts or say "Ah well, nevertheless". It's like clockwork. What do you get out of this? What do you think you are adding to the conversation other than convincing everyone you're either dishonest or illiterate? It would have taken you less than five minutes to read back through the thread and find those examples yourself, but no, every time, others have to find them for you. Someone actually made that argument 2 posts above his on that same page. koolkal posted:Because we've seen 6 months of Biden and it's clear where he stands? Trump is often unpredictable when he does things depending on public opinion, Republican pressure, random people offering him things, whoever spoke to him last, etc. He is chaos.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:15
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Majorian posted:This post makes it seem like you're trying to cast people who have legitimate complaints about Biden's unwavering material support for Israel as bad faith wreckers who don't actually care about the genocide, and only want to hurt Biden's chances of winning. Is that an accurate summation of your position? No what the hell. We've been supporting this poo poo from Israel for more than half-a-century now. Suddenly calling it all Biden's fault and making it a big moral issue at this point in time is suspect, imho. Practically, it's trying to "Hilary" Biden. Bernie bros were forefront of this type of nonsense before, eagerly eating-up any old bullshit slop set out for them to the point where they walked-away from the election. Granted, gently caress Hilary but the reaction to Hilary gave us Trump and this sudden interest in the Isreali/Palestinian conflict after decades of not giving a gently caress....it's a little odd and will probably give us Trump again. Jesus Tittyfucking Christ, how do you do anything that supports a Trump re-election at this point? Just boggles the mind.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:23
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any current events today fellas?
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Apr 18, 2024 03:29
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SpeakSlow posted:No what the hell. People aren't saying it's all Biden's fault. He didn't personally draw up the plans for Israel. People are mad at him because he fully supports Israel while they are committing genocide and he's also the president at this moment. Also, genocide is a pretty big moral issue on its own. People being concerned about genocide is not suspect. Lots of people have been concerned about I/P for decades. Some have learned more about it and found that it doesn't align with their views and values. They may have taken a bit, but it isn't odd. What's odd is thinking that being against genocide supports a Trump re-election lobster shirt posted:any current events today fellas? Just in case I need to make this post on topic: https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1780683348211376278 quote:While clarifying that President Joe Biden has worked vigorously to support “Palestinian aspirations for statehood” within the context “of a comprehensive peace that would resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,” a diplomatic cable dated April 12 details U.S. talking points against a U.N. vote for Palestinian statehood. The cable says that Security Council members must be persuaded to reject any proposal for Palestinian statehood — and thereby its recognition as a sovereign nation — before the council’s open debate on the Middle East, scheduled for April 18. The Biden admin is urging other countries to reject Palestine as a UN member state. I don't see how voting against Palestine becoming a UN member state advances Palestinian goals in a meaningful and enduring way. theCalamity fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 03:31
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lobster shirt posted:any current events today fellas? Supreme Court all but eliminated the right to protest in 3 states, so that's cool.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:32
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lobster shirt posted:any current events today fellas? This is usually the standard for no news days though I thought it just usually happens on weekend when most people have lives and friends and, you know, stuff to do. Wild to see this happening on a weekday.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:35
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https://www.axios.com/2024/04/17/un-palestine-membership-bidenquote:Over the last two weeks, the Biden administration has been pressing Abbas and his advisers to back off from their request, U.S., Israeli and Palestinian officials say. Inviting Abbas to the White House in return of rescinding the Palestinian request to become a member state is a really lovely deal. It's hosed up that our law apparently compels the Biden admin to veto or defund the UN. Our country is so horrible. I'm looking to see which law that is theCalamity fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 03:46
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So as previously discussed RORO cargo is moving from the closed port of Baltimore to Brunswick GA. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/business/ports-truckers-baltimore-bridge.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare What they aren’t going to say outright is that shippers are probably going to find Brunswick a significantly easier experience than Baltimore. They’re going to lose some of the RORO supply chains permanently I think. I’d expect containers and coal come back a lot quicker when they get the bridge cleared, and atleast one of the coal terminals used to be on the outside of the bridge, though it’s been 16 ish years so I dunno if that one’s still open.
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Apr 18, 2024 04:11
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SpeakSlow posted:No what the hell. I mean, it's "Biden's fault" because he's the President now at this stage in the genocide, he's made a well-established name for himself as a committed Zionist over the decades (see the Menachem Begin incident in the 80s), and he's still providing material aid to Israel's genocidal war machine. I don't think anyone's saying that the entirety of this crisis is his fault, since he wasn't anywhere near government in 1948. But the fact that this genocide partially predates Biden's term in office doesn't mean that he's not partially responsible for the part that's taken place under his presidency. I'm not sure how Bernie Bros fits into any part of this conversation; Bernie supporters' criticisms of Clinton were for the most part pretty valid. Madkal posted:This is usually the standard for no news days though I thought it just usually happens on weekend when most people have lives and friends and, you know, stuff to do. Wild to see this happening on a weekday. I would expect it to go the other way around: people are spending their time with friends and family and their hobbies over the weekends, not when they're blowing off steam after work on a weekday. Majorian fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Apr 18, 2024 |
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Apr 18, 2024 04:18
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thread is making GBS threads the bed, but lol at thinking Donnie the Dove is in the wildcard deck. or even in the same galaxy or universe or multiverse.
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Apr 18, 2024 04:40
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theCalamity posted:Just in case I need to make this post on topic: The typical line from the US (which has consistently held this position pretty much forever) is that Palestinian statehood needs to be negotiated with the key players in the region, and that unilaterally pushing it through in the UN without getting buy-in from Palestine's neighbors will just raise tensions in the Middle East without actually changing the facts on the ground in any meaningful way. It's not new to Biden. That's why the Palestinians never moved forward with their application for full member status before; the US has always made it quite clear that it'd veto a unilateral move like that if it didn't come on the heels of a negotiated peace agreement for the Middle East. If anything, it's interesting that the US is exercising behind-the-scenes pressure like this instead of just openly threatening a veto. Biden does seem to prefer the backroom dealings approach to foreign policy in general. Honestly, I doubt Abbas has any real hopes of getting this through. Rather, this is likely a bid to improve his own political position. As someone who's currently in year nineteen of his four-year term as president (Palestinian presidential elections have been "postponed indefinitely" since the day he tried to coup Hamas out of power), he's deeply unpopular both domestically and abroad. His desired course for the Israel/Palestinian conflict (collaborate with the Israeli occupation in hopes that it'll improve their negotiating position) has been a dismal failure, and he's done basically jack poo poo in response to the Israeli invasion of Gaza. On top of that, the PA's biggest backer, the US, has been increasingly critical of how corrupt and ineffectual the PA government has been under him, and the Biden administration has been pushing him to do some actual reform and clean out some of the cronies (because the US wants to hand control of the Palestinian Territories to the PA, and they'd prefer if the PA wasn't a complete loving joke when that happens). And most importantly, he's old as hell and pretty sick, and his anointed heir is a diehard Abbas loyalist with no political base and a lot less popularity than his rivals. Abbas has desperately needed to do something, anything to regain some relevance for his faction. This gets him some favorable headlines, and has the side benefit of putting the Biden administration in an embarrassing position, which he can use as leverage to get the US to back off its pressure on his administration. In that regard, an invitation to the White House is probably exactly the kind of thing Abbas is angling for here, and the Biden administration probably realizes that much.
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Apr 18, 2024 04:41
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If people in this thread actually think Trump is going to be less on board with genocide than Biden then this thread is even crazier than the I/P thread
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Apr 18, 2024 05:13
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Main Paineframe posted:Honestly, I doubt Abbas has any real hopes of getting this through. Rather, this is likely a bid to improve his own political position. As someone who's currently in year nineteen of his four-year term as president (Palestinian presidential elections have been "postponed indefinitely" since the day he tried to coup Hamas out of power), he's deeply unpopular both domestically and abroad. His desired course for the Israel/Palestinian conflict (collaborate with the Israeli occupation in hopes that it'll improve their negotiating position) has been a dismal failure, and he's done basically jack poo poo in response to the Israeli invasion of Gaza. I would agree although humorously one of Blinken's Suggested Talking Points is that this is going to do the opposite. 
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Apr 18, 2024 05:26
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Bodyholes posted:Voting for liberals to stop fascists is fascism. Voting for fascists on the other hand, totally not fascist at all. Cool and good actually. I did not advocate voting for fascists, quite the opposite actually. Voting for liberals does not stop fascists, which should be painfully clear after the last three years, and I have extremely bad news if you think that Democrats are free from the fascism label considering what has transpired with Israel. Or the border. Or how they have enabled Republicans through direct action or inaction.
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Apr 18, 2024 05:31
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PhazonLink posted:thread is making GBS threads the bed, but lol at thinking Donnie the Dove is in the wildcard deck. or even in the same galaxy or universe or multiverse. Charliegrs posted:If people in this thread actually think Trump is going to be less on board with genocide than Biden then this thread is even crazier than the I/P thread There's a trend of people doing poo poo like this where they paint "this thread" as having a certain belief that they can point to and laugh, but when asked to provide specific claims, point to one or two posts at most as if it's some pervasive opinion. Tons of people disparage the thread but continually do poo poo like this, which actually makes the thread what it is. If you aren't going to engage with people's posts, just don't reply. An uncharitable read on this would be that being forced to handwave away genocide as something we just have to accept in our leaders is causing some serious lashing out, and this is one form of it.
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Apr 18, 2024 05:34
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:handwave away genocide as something we just have to accept in our leaders If you want to have a nuanced discussion about electoral politics in the US, then yeah, you kind of have to because ain't poo poo you can do to vote for an anti-genocide candidate. This isn't new to Trump and Biden, this country is literally built on genocide and there is not a single us president that hasn't supported genocide one way or another
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Apr 18, 2024 05:42
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Professor Beetus posted:If you want to have a nuanced discussion about electoral politics in the US, then yeah, you kind of have to because ain't poo poo you can do to vote for an anti-genocide candidate. This isn't new to Trump and Biden, this country is literally built on genocide and there is not a single us president that hasn't supported genocide one way or another Right, but you can hardly blame people for loudly and passionately protesting this fact.
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Apr 18, 2024 05:51
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Professor Beetus posted:If you want to have a nuanced discussion about electoral politics in the US, then yeah, you kind of have to because ain't poo poo you can do to vote for an anti-genocide candidate. This isn't new to Trump and Biden, this country is literally built on genocide and there is not a single us president that hasn't supported genocide one way or another Fair enough, but there are degrees. What Biden is doing isn't something that every previous President has done and even if it is, that doesn't make it defensible. There are candidates for high office (not many most likely) that would not be doing what Biden is doing.
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Apr 18, 2024 05:52
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koolkal posted:I would agree although humorously one of Blinken's Suggested Talking Points is that this is going to do the opposite. Oh, poo poo. Looks like Palestinian leadership never thought to try doing something. What a bunch of rubes, painstakingly trying to get global recognition and support over decades when they could have just picked up the phone and asked Bibi nicely to stop.
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Apr 18, 2024 06:08
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koolkal posted:I would agree although humorously one of Blinken's Suggested Talking Points is that this is going to do the opposite. Eh, he's probably right, at least when it comes to domestic Palestinian affairs. Abbas is stuck in a catch-22 where he's unpopular with the Palestinian population because he actively collaborates with the Israeli occupation, but he can't dial back the collaboration too far because Israeli support is crucial in suppressing opposition to his rule. This leaves him very few meaningful options at times like this. He can't praise or support or defend Hamas, because they're his rivals, his political opponents, his enemies, and the greatest threats to his rule. But he can't attack or criticize Hamas either right now, because the populace of the West Bank has quite a bit of sympathy and support for Gaza and Hamas right now. Similarly, he can't meaningfully push back against Israel because he badly needs them to help prop him up. But at the same time, he can't praise or defend Israel because Israel is obviously very unpopular in the West Bank. And so on. He's pushed himself into a position where he doesn't really have the ability to do much without either pissing off his backers or inflaming domestic political opinion against him, which is part of why he's been doing so little the whole time. Since Fatah and the West Bank are on the sidelines, he's free to stay uninvolved and focus all his energy on walking these tightropes he's put himself on. So this is probably not really a good option for him, domestically. But "doing nothing" wasn't exactly working out super great for him either, and he doesn't have any other options that he considers to be acceptable. But there's one situation where he does have to take some kind of action: his relationship with the US. The Biden administration has been putting a lot of pressure on him to clean out the corruption and cronyism in the PA government, but he sees that corruption and cronyism as important in maintaining his rule. And as a side note, the corruption and cronyism are the other major reason that the Abbas administration is super unpopular. And unlike the above, he can't really ignore this forever. Fortunately for him, the Biden administration does have its own vulnerabilities here, and this is aimed directly at one of them. Forcing a UNSC vote on Palestinian statehood will have one big effect: it'll embarrass the hell out of the US, which will then be put in the awkward position of having to veto it. As such, he now has a clear method to pressure the US back, which seems likely to reduce the pressure the US is putting on him personally. I wouldn't be shocked if he cuts a deal with Biden behind the scenes, in which the US backs off on pressuring him for reforms, and in return he backs down on his efforts to pursue international recognition.
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Apr 18, 2024 07:17
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Hell, wasn't Trump the one who gave Israel the big win of putting the Embassy in Jerusalem?
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Apr 18, 2024 08:50
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Is this election only about a single issue? I would think that Trump winning would be a nightmare for everyone, not just Gazans, but for them too.
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Apr 18, 2024 09:10
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Nenonen posted:Is this election only about a single issue? I would think that Trump winning would be a nightmare for everyone, not just Gazans, but for them too. I/P is mostly irrelevant to the election. I believe recent polling says like 7% of people rank 'foreign policy' stuff as important at all.
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Apr 18, 2024 09:44
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Bodyholes posted:Voting for liberals to stop fascists is fascism. Voting for fascists on the other hand, totally not fascist at all. Cool and good actually. whatever efforts get made to compel people on the left end of the political spectrum to argue for their own collective political nonparticipation (whether into nonvoting or into engineered vote splitting), i DO at least get to say they create some of the wildest pretzel logic rationales i got to see since the Walk Away movement
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Apr 18, 2024 09:48
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Neat Bee posted:I did not advocate voting for fascists, quite the opposite actually. Voting for liberals does not stop fascists, which should be painfully clear after the last three years, and I have extremely bad news if you think that Democrats are free from the fascism label considering what has transpired with Israel. Or the border. Or how they have enabled Republicans through direct action or inaction. The answer to this is quite clear: we don't vote our way out of fascism. The vote has nothing at all to do with signaling your allegiances or changing the country. You pick whichever candidate is the most pragmatic. Then you go back to doing the real work. If somebody comes up with a mass movement to protest the vote I'm onboard but until then it's just sort of petty. We don't get to choose the outcome of the genocide. It's not on the ballot.
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Apr 18, 2024 12:08
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Kchama posted:I/P is mostly irrelevant to the election. I believe recent polling says like 7% of people rank 'foreign policy' stuff as important at all. How many of that 7% live in the states that cost Hillary the 2016 election?
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Apr 18, 2024 12:23
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Stringent posted:How many of that 7% live in the states that cost Hillary the 2016 election? There isn't infinite time of resources so focusing on the 7% (some of who want us to be more involved or are just anti-Ukraine) will reduce the votes you get from the 93%. Just make cheese curds the national food and guarantee a win in Wisconsin.
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Apr 18, 2024 12:52
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https://twitter.com/MattKleinOnline/status/1780616545586106487 Whoever wins in WV may be the most LGBT hostile governor in the country.
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Apr 18, 2024 14:13
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