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DynamicSloth posted:Yes many of the people voting to ban tiktok are doing so because of the vicious thought crimes perpetuating on it's feed. Others lie and say their doing it for techno mumbo jumbo concerns about privacy they would never apply to any American social media company. Weren't they trying to ban it in 2017 when it was just viral dances and Onlyfans advertisements? And according to the NYT article above, the most recent push started in March 2023 after it came to light that the CEO had lied about China having access to the Texas data center.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:18
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DynamicSloth posted:Yes many of the people voting to ban tiktok are doing so because of the vicious thought crimes perpetuating on it's feed. Others lie and say their doing it for techno mumbo jumbo concerns about privacy they would never apply to any American social media company. I'm still not sure what thought crime means in this context or how what you are accusing these people voting to ban tiktok isn't also a thought crime or what you are basing this all on.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:18
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socialsecurity posted:I'm still not sure what thought crime means in this context Being opposed to Israel slaughtering everybody in Gaza, which our representatives can only understand as being mind-controlled by the communists.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:22
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IT BURNS posted:At the very least, he looks like a hypocrite having only recently created an account expressly to appeal to younger voters. It's a dumb move. The Intercept ran a piece yesterday on how Biden has courted TikTok influencers "help him shore up youth support for his reelection": quote:Though the Biden administration has directly consulted on the creation of the legislation that could ban TikTok, the Biden campaign has embraced the app, creating an official account in February. The decision has drawn criticism from even some of Biden’s most stalwart allies. As beerinator noted, the legislation gives a deadline beyond the election, but I don't think the effect of the ban-pending-sale should be shrugged off. Over 100 million Americans use TikTok--almost one out of every three Americans. And, as we've discussed, users skew more Democratic as well as younger. Further, the ban-pending-sale was, as haveblue pointed out, included in legislation funding a military action that is increasingly unpopular among all Americans, but especially younger voters. I've seen people in left-ish spaces argue that TikTok is a way for marginalized people to earn money & find affinity with others but I don't know the extent to which that's true. World Famous W posted:most ain't saying that, more that the i/p stuff lit a fire under its rear end to get done Yeah, and news stories have covered how the pro-Israeli political groups amped significant pressure on politicians to ban it after Oct. 7, particularly the ADL. (I'm happy to provide links if people are still skeptical.)
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Apr 24, 2024 16:24
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theCalamity posted:Yeah their concerns over privacy and data protection rings hollow when the other social media platforms aren’t getting regulated as well. China doesn’t even need TikTok to get data on Americans, they can just buy it from data brokers. Other platforms are regulated in ways that TikTok isn't. That is the entire reason for the Chinese security law that allows them to pull information from Chinese company servers without even asking and why Bytedance has a separate American branch that was a compromise to make it sort of fall under American and European data security laws. It's less concerns about specific individual American data privacy and more that China has technical access to data on 170 million American phones that could easily be the best spying tool in the world. I don't particularly care about how much trouble it would be for American intelligence agencies to prevent espionage or cyber crime, but it makes sense from their perspective that they wouldn't want to have one of the biggest information capture networks in the world under control of the Chinese government that they could just dip into anytime they wanted. China has been caught using tech to spy before and entire sectors of the Chinese economy are built on corporate espionage and IP theft, so if you already didn't trust the Chinese government then it makes a lot of sense why you wouldn't want them to have that much potential access or leverage over your country. The average American probably doesn't care that much about it, but that is obviously a big concern to American businesses and people involved in American diplomacy/espionage/global relations. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 16:25
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socialsecurity posted:I'm still not sure what thought crime means in this context or how what you are accusing these people voting to ban tiktok isn't also a thought crime or what you are basing this all on. Forbidden speech is thought crime. What do you call it when politicians want to ban certain ideas? Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Weren't they trying to ban it in 2017 when it was just viral dances and Onlyfans advertisements? I'm talking about the liberals voting for this ban explicitly to silence pro-Palestine content. I expect the Trump administration and its cronies to be pro-censorship, they aren't purporting to be liberals.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:30
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DynamicSloth posted:Forbidden speech is thought crime. What do you call it when politicians want to ban certain ideas? But they aren't doing that here, what ideas would be banned once Tiktok is forced to adhere to privacy laws or be under different ownership? Which liberals are voting for this ban explicitly to silence pro-Palestine content, I see a lot of vague accusations thrown about but no like quotes or anything.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:32
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A functional Tiktok ban in the US is actually the most likely outcome because China has already created export control rules explicitly to allow it to prevent the transfer of the Bytedance IP outside China. Someone may be able to buy "Tiktok US", but they won't actually be buying Tiktok because without the Bytedance IP and with the US users siloed off from the rest of the world it is just going to be another Instagram reels type cheap imitation. Nobody outside China has managed to replicate the Tiktok algorithm yet and they've been desperately trying for four years so I doubt its going to happen by the time of the sale.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:32
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socialsecurity posted:But they aren't doing that here, what ideas would be banned once Tiktok is forced to adhere to privacy laws or be under different ownership? They've made that pretty obvious, pro-palestinian content will look like it does on Facebook after they force a sale to an American plutocrat.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:35
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DynamicSloth posted:They've made that pretty obvious, pro-palestinian content will look like it does on Facebook after they force a sale to an American plutocrat. So Tiktok is the only place where pro-palestinian content exists and that's why there's been studies and investigations into banning Tiktok for years? Do you have any sources or anything for this claim?
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Apr 24, 2024 16:36
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Is pro-Palestinian content currently banned on American and European social media? The only social media I sort of use is Twitter and most of it is overwhelmingly pro-Palestinian (I assume that part of this is the algorithm and who I follow too). The only thing I can think of that is explicitly banned is transferring money to Hamas because they are a designated terrorist group. I don't use TikTok, but I still have a pretty easy time finding videos, information (both fake and real), major journalists, minor journalists, and crowdsourced/on the ground information about Palestine on Twitter and the general internet.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:38
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Main Paineframe posted:
You are misrepresenting the article, so I can charitably assume you didn't read it and are doing so unintentionally. Let me help you out -- here is the relevant passage, which indicates multiple times that it is a speculation and there is no evidence that Yass convinced him: quote:On March 1, Yass visited Mar-a-Lago, where Trump praised him as “brilliant” and credited him with saving the previously ruptured relationship with the Club for Growth, the powerful conservative advocacy group that had opposed many of the former president’s protectionist economic policies. Many—including former Trump chief strategist Steve Bannon—see Yass’s influence in Trump’s decision to oppose an outright ban on TikTok.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:39
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socialsecurity posted:So Tiktok is the only place where pro-palestinian content exists and that's why there's been studies and investigations into banning Tiktok for years? Do you have any sources or anything for this claim? It's one of the more popular channels for pro-palestinian content, this is the claim of the people trying to ban it, I did not claim it was the only source. Is your belief that government should be allowed to ban speech as long as some other means of accessing the same information exists somewhere else?
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Apr 24, 2024 16:40
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I gotta say, I do like the name ByteDance, it's much classier and catchy than all the Chinese knockoff companies on Amazon called like, weeop or glorp
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Apr 24, 2024 16:41
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Does Tiktok being a platform impact the free speech component at all? It's not like forcing the sale of a platform is the same as restricting what can be said to me, but I would be curious to know if any precedent exists.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:42
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You keep calling for action, but you're side-stepping every request to offer proof or a source for your claims. Edit: Directed to Dynamic Sloth
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Apr 24, 2024 16:42
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DynamicSloth posted:It's one of the more popular channels for pro-palestinian content, this is the claim of the people trying to ban it, I did not claim it was the only source. Claim of what people trying to ban it, who exactly? The government isn't banning speech though, you said it was banning ideas but that doesn't make sense it the idea isn't being banned elsewhere, do you think platforms should not have to adhere to data privacy laws if the platform says things you agree with?
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Apr 24, 2024 16:42
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n/m
zoux fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 16:43
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If Trump says he'll stop the TikTok ban then he's going to win. No, it doesn't matter if I can't actually stop it or that he banned it himself, if he markets himself as the "save tiktok guy" he's winning.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:44
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socialsecurity posted:So Tiktok is the only place where pro-palestinian content exists and that's why there's been studies and investigations into banning Tiktok for years? Do you have any sources or anything for this claim? Why and how are you extrapolating "Tiktok is the only place where pro-palestinian content exists" as well as ignoring that pro-Israeli political groups have increased their pressure since October 7? That's like saying 4-chan is the only rightwing social media. It's an app popular among younger, more liberal voters, who are also the least inclined to support Israel in its current genocide of Palestinians. Again, if you need me to provide news sources on how pro-Israeli groups have greatly increased pressure since Oct. 7 I'm happy to provide them, but they're also available by a date-limited google search. eta: Space Cadet Omoly posted:If Trump says he'll stop the TikTok ban then he's going to win. He's already doing it. 
Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 16:44
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DynamicSloth posted:It's one of the more popular channels for pro-palestinian content, this is the claim of the people trying to ban it, I did not claim it was the only source. I think he is asking why they aren't trying to ban the other places with pro-Palestinian content if that is the primary motivation for the ban. If banning speech is the reason, then it doesn't really make sense that they wouldn't target other places or explain why they started efforts to ban it in 2017.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:46
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Gaza pier update from what I see on AIS and the news: Lopez looks to still be drifting. ROY P.BENAVIDEZ looks to have turned off its AIS on Monday. Destination was changed to “NIRVANA”. This one has a bunch of the pontoons. To know what is going on with it one would need satellite images, or to see it/ show it on radar on another vessel in the area. States know and the AIS companies know because they have satellites. Folks nearby listening to radio communications probably know. There’s too many vessels in the Med to keep it a real secret. Army boats are still moored. Stars and Stripes is reporting in line with what I see here: https://www.stripes.com/theaters/us/2024-04-23/gaza-temporary-pier-israel-war-famine-pentagon-13637141.html ““All the necessary vessels are within the Mediterranean region and standing by … to begin construction when we’re given the order to do that,” he said. “There is a process and procedure that will have to be followed … and our planners have worked through the details of all the things one would expect [but] we’re on track at this point to implement that operational capability” in the coming weeks.” So what does that mean… The Benavidez is probably headed out to start on the off shore floating pier. I think they need the army vessels to do the causeway pier and jetty. This probably has the clearest drawing of how it all is supposed to work I’ve seen in the news. https://www.barrons.com/news/jlots-the-us-army-s-temporary-port-system-59ef2619
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Apr 24, 2024 16:47
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:I think he is asking why they aren't trying to ban the other places with pro-Palestinian content if that is the primary motivation for the ban. If banning speech is the reason, then it doesn't really make sense that they wouldn't target other places or explain why they started efforts to ban it in 2017. It would, however, explain how it became necessary to resurrect what was once a dead-in-the-water Republican policy into a very broad-based policy supported by both parties.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:48
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WarpedLichen posted:Does Tiktok being a platform impact the free speech component at all? It's not like forcing the sale of a platform is the same as restricting what can be said to me, but I would be curious to know if any precedent exists. Yes, there have been cases where the concept of "disparate impact" has been used to prevent action on free speech grounds. The argument is that the action may not be directly limiting free speech by itself, but the practical impact is that it has a disproportionate impact on the free speech rights of some people.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:49
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Willa Rogers posted:It would, however, explain how it became necessary to resurrect what was once a dead-in-the-water Republican policy into a very broad-based policy supported by both parties. According to the NYT article, the Gaza TikTok controversy was part of what prompted them to reveal the bill earlier because they thought it would give them momentum to pass it, but the most recent resurrection already had a majority of people from both parties in support and started in March 2023.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:52
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I guess I don't find any of the pearl clutching over TikTok's shady data practices convincing given the absolute fascist, criminal hellholes that Facebook and Twitter have become. We don't police our own companies, why should I be worried about this one? There's obvious proof that FB and Twitter are pro-fascism, so if TikTok isn't that, then it's far less of a threat to me personally than those two. I know SO many people who have been criminally targeted for fraud via FB. My wife's grandfather almost gave away tens of thousands of dollars to someone impersonating a relative of theirs on FB. FB is so much more dangerous and it's not ever lifted a finger to fight this poo poo, and it's pervasive, especially in rural areas among the elderly. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 16:54
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socialsecurity posted:Claim of what people trying to ban it, who exactly? socialsecurity posted:The government isn't banning speech though, you said it was banning ideas but that doesn't make sense it the idea isn't being banned elsewhere, do you think platforms should not have to adhere to data privacy laws if the platform says things you agree with? If Bytedance is breaking privacy laws why isn't it being prosecuted for that? If the privacy laws aren't sufficient why aren't they being changed? What 'law' did bytedance break and does that 'law' apply to other social media companies?
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Apr 24, 2024 16:56
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beerinator posted:The forced sale/ban is not slated to happen until after the election so I don't see it changing much. this is naive as gently caress the tens of millions of young, left-leaning users on tiktok are going to hear 'biden signed a bill banning tiktok' as soon as he signs it. whatever does or does not happen after the election is not going to matter even remotely as much as that. like, signing this bill is possibly the most self-sabotaging thing he could do regardless of justification and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:57
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I still kinda think the phone call stunt was the last straw. On top of all the substantive, debatable objections to Tiktok, they showed they weren't playing along with the usual DC games and were willing to be atypically disruptive. Congresspeople are still humans who can be put off by someone being rude on top of their amoral political calculations
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Apr 24, 2024 16:57
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They didn't ban speech because they lack principles they did it because they're pissy little babies is not as comforting as you might imagine.
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Apr 24, 2024 16:59
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Main Paineframe posted:It's also worth remembering that Trump banned Tiktok near the end of his term too, but it was held up in court long enough for him to be replaced by Biden, who canceled the Tiktok ban and opened some investigations into Tiktok's handling of user data instead. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Other platforms are regulated in ways that TikTok isn't. That is the entire reason for the Chinese security law that allows them to pull information from Chinese company servers without even asking and why Bytedance has a separate American branch that was a compromise to make it sort of fall under American and European data security laws. socialsecurity posted:Thank you this makes more sense then people saying this was all put together overnight because of the I/P stuff. In my opinion there are some very good reasons TikTok should be forced to divest from Chinese ownership and I myself am a frequent TikTok user. The point that American social media companies do a lot of the same things and we let them get away with it is a good one but also kind of whataboutism. In my view, China being in control of that sort of stuff, especially in light of both Trump and Biden's push for an economic war with China, is worse than an American company doing the same thing. We should absolutely address both TikTok and the American companies doing it though. As it stands, if Congress got off their rear end and decided to actually take action they would have much more control and effect on American owned social media companies than a Chinese owned one. I would strongly suggest anybody interested in all of this and some of the deeper reasoning behind it listen to this podcast episode from The Realignment about why America should force TikTok to divest, they make some great points and bring some data about how China is manipulating the algorithm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltI_t7X-6Bo They also did a followup episode taking the other side and arguing against divestment but I haven't listened to it yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa63_IA1erU
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Apr 24, 2024 17:04
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:According to the NYT article, the Gaza TikTok controversy was part of what prompted them to reveal the bill earlier because they thought it would give them momentum to pass it, but the most recent resurrection already had a majority of people from both parties in support and started in March 2023. The bipartisan committee had majority support, but the story says nothing about Congress at large "already" supporting it in March 2023. In fact, the story points out that: quote:Their efforts got a lift after TikTok was accused by lawmakers including Mr. Gallagher and others of intentionally pushing pro-Palestinian and anti-Israel content to its users last year. Mr. Krishnamoorthi and others said the Israel-Gaza conflict stoked lawmakers’ appetites to regulate the app. The NYT piece also fails to mention the newly found pressure by pro-Israeli pressure groups post-Oct. 7 that other news stories have documented. The piece does mention how it was a conservative-backed proposal that most likely had to be included along with military funding in order to get Democrats' approval (oh, the irony...), which again is a far cry from your claim that "a majority of people from both parties in support and started in March 2023." eta: FLIPADELPHIA posted:I guess I don't find any of the pearl clutching over TikTok's shady data practices convincing given the absolute fascist, criminal hellholes that Facebook and Twitter have become. We don't police our own companies, why should I be worried about this one? There's obvious proof that FB and Twitter are pro-fascism, so if TikTok isn't that, then it's far less of a threat to me personally than those two. The government does police U.S.-based social media groups; it's the underlying premise of Missouri v. Biden wending its way through the courts. But they can't police TikTok, nor "nudge" it in favor of promoting governmental policies or outright censor it as they have with U.S. media & social media. (As far as elderly scams, it's the same via other media, including telephone calls. My AARP newsletter keeps running stories on PREVENT YOURSELF FROM FRAUD.) Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 17:05
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:I guess I don't find any of the pearl clutching over TikTok's shady data practices convincing given the absolute fascist, criminal hellholes that Facebook and Twitter have become. We don't police our own companies, why should I be worried about this one? There's obvious proof that FB and Twitter are pro-fascism, so if TikTok isn't that, then it's far less of a threat to me personally than those two. If you want to think about it from a pure realist brute force perspective to get an idea why certain groups in the government don't like it, then just imagine this is their perspective: - China already walls off all of their companies from foreign competition and requires foreign companies to give China partial ownership and access to their businesses. - Large parts of American businesses lose a lot of money from cyber crime and IP theft by China. - Why do we have this wide open opportunity for them to steal information, spy, or commit cyber crime that nobody else can do and China already takes steps to make sure won't happen to them? - Let's get rid of that opportunity whether they have used it or not because it doesn't make sense to leave it open if we don't trust China and know they have exploited openings like this before. The current situation is way too one-sided. The individual users have nothing to do with it from that perspective and it is entirely about a tool/loophole in international relations/competition that could be exploited against American businesses and government that they would never be able to detect and don't want that option to be available to China because they view them as a competitor and someone they don't want to have significant leverage over American businesses or government. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 17:11
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DynamicSloth posted:They didn't ban speech because they lack principles they did it because they're pissy little babies is not as comforting as you might imagine. I didn't post that to be comforting, just pointing out that if we're exploring the reasons the ban sat around for a while and then suddenly gathered momentum and passed you can't ignore the pissbaby factor
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Apr 24, 2024 17:15
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D-Pad posted:In my opinion there are some very good reasons TikTok should be forced to divest from Chinese ownership and I myself am a frequent TikTok user. The point that American social media companies do a lot of the same things and we let them get away with it is a good one but also kind of whataboutism. In my view, China being in control of that sort of stuff, especially in light of both Trump and Biden's push for an economic war with China, is worse than an American company doing the same thing. We should absolutely address both TikTok and the American companies doing it though. As it stands, if Congress got off their rear end and decided to actually take action they would have much more control and effect on American owned social media companies than a Chinese owned one. I do not want to listen to a podcast. Can you link an article or summarize their data regarding Chinese algorithm manipulation techniques? Donghua Jinlong industrial glycine is superior
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Apr 24, 2024 17:17
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DynamicSloth posted:The Democrats who decided to support the bill this year, obviously, why do you think they came around? it's literally not possible for a US court to enforce data privacy on TikTok. The company is so closely tied with the government its effectively sharing data with itself. like the entire idea is laughable. what're we supposed to do, fly over to China and arrest TikTok's CCP cadre? Biden issued an EO earlier this year on this topic, but that takes time promulgate and in a lot of ways TikTok is too big and too remote to regulate. some low level bureaucrat isn't going to order apple to ban tiktok. Bar Ran Dun posted:
TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 17:17
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If so called "Bernie Bros" weren't actually responsible for 2016, then I think the effect this will have on the election is being far overstated. I think the ban is dumb as hell but I also think it's not going to move the needle one way or the other. Leftists, simultaneously powerful enough to swing elections but not powerful enough to have any real political power.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:18
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Professor Beetus posted:If so called "Bernie Bros" weren't actually responsible for 2016, then I think the effect this will have on the election is being far overstated. I think the ban is dumb as hell but I also think it's not going to move the needle one way or the other. Leftists, simultaneously powerful enough to swing elections but not powerful enough to have any real political power. I think the issue is less that it may decisively swing "leftists" away from voting for Biden, thus costing him the election, and more that it may depress youth turnout writ large, thus costing him the election.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:21
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Professor Beetus posted:If so called "Bernie Bros" weren't actually responsible for 2016, then I think the effect this will have on the election is being far overstated. I think the ban is dumb as hell but I also think it's not going to move the needle one way or the other. Leftists, simultaneously powerful enough to swing elections but not powerful enough to have any real political power. I don't think it has anything to do with leftism at this point. People want their cat videos.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:22
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Gaza pier update from what I see on AIS and the news: I just wanted to say I do appreciate these updates. It's nice to know they are actually doing something about the issue, even if it was somewhat too little too late when they kicked it off two months ago.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:24
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