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Apr 30, 2024 09:34
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Oh no. Is Fuji-sama going to replace Tommy Shelby as the new subject of terrible sigma male edits on Twitter?
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Apr 30, 2024 09:38
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Dingleberry2 posted:Ah, so now the distilling begins where we are informed of just what a terrible show it was that we got to enjoy for the last 10 weeks. oh no i adored the show, i think that was just about the only major fumble of something that was on screen and made worse. its okay to criticise things you love.
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Apr 30, 2024 10:00
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It’s okay to criticize things at all.
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Apr 30, 2024 13:46
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Jamwad Hilder posted:In real life the situation after Hideyoshi's death but before Sekigahara was just as tense as in the show, with assassination plots and armed confrontations in the streets, but no one was ordered to commit seppuku. There was even an assassination attempt on Tokugawa Ieyasu ordered by Ishida Mitsunari, and then a counter-attempt on Ishida by Tokugawa's generals, and in both cases no one was ordered to kill themselves when the plots failed. They were basically put on house arrest or exiled instead. But, again, that's maybe not as exciting for a work of fiction. I think it's also worth mentioning that Ieyasu himself specifically had to shelter Mitsunari from his own allies and retainers after Mitsunari's assassination attempt on him failed. Dude knew that as long as Hideyoshi's favorite bean counter was a prominent member of the opposition to the Tokugawa, he'd be able to divide and conquer, so he kept him safe, even though they had him dead to rights.
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Apr 30, 2024 13:57
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:also to show that he can get away with poo poo behaviour by just saying “sorry. it was the alcohol.” Dude is a piece of poo poo interpersonally, but come on the guy can fight. Dude is a monster with a sword and armor
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Apr 30, 2024 14:10
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:buntaro also didn’t fight off an army, he fought a bunch of peasants. it’s not impressive when a knight fights off peasants. it IS impressive that he made it back, but blackthorne doesn’t know if he had to fight off anyone actually threatening. I dunno, I think the escape is impressive no matter who was chasing him. You read actual great feats of combat throughout history, and it's most often like "fought off 3 dudes at once," not, like, a John Wick level of violence.
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Apr 30, 2024 15:45
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Ballz posted:I believe Fuji is Buntaro’s niece, not sister. Don't they both refer to the retainer who died father?
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Apr 30, 2024 15:55
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twistedmentat posted:Don't they both refer to the retainer who died father? No, Fuji calls him Grandfather. Buntaro is her uncle.
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Apr 30, 2024 16:04
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Can someone explain marika's background story? I really didn't understand what the gently caress the show was trying to say with her father being a traitor or whatever. At the risk of sounding racist I honestly couldn't tell the non-main actors apart sometimes especially during flashbacks like I have no idea who is suppose to be who unless they wore distinct clothing or whatever and they all wore the same loving things. Also what was the -domo suffix suppose to mean? From context it seems like it's how a superior addressed his underling but I can't find anything about -domo as a suffix. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 16:34
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can someone explain marika's background story? I really didn't understand what the gently caress the show was trying to say with her father being a traitor or whatever. At the risk of sounding racist I honestly couldn't tell the non-main actors apart sometimes especially during flashbacks like I have no idea who is suppose to be who unless they wore distinct clothing or whatever and they all wore the same loving things. It's not that complicated. Mariko's father betrayed and assassinated his lord, I think they call him Kuroda in the show but he's based on Oda Nobunaga, who was the first man on the verge of unifying Japan. This is about 20 years before the show takes place. Mariko believes he did it for the good of the realm, but most people just think he was a huge traitor. Basically everyone important in the show was an ally, vassal, or vassal of a vassal, to Kuroda. So her father and family name still have a lovely reputation. it's "-dono" and you have it backwards. It's basically the equivalent in a medieval European setting of someone saying "my lord" or "master"
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Apr 30, 2024 17:16
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can someone explain marika's background story? I really didn't understand what the gently caress the show was trying to say with her father being a traitor or whatever. At the risk of sounding racist I honestly couldn't tell the non-main actors apart sometimes especially during flashbacks like I have no idea who is suppose to be who unless they wore distinct clothing or whatever and they all wore the same loving things. The dono/tono honorific is archaic these days, nowadays it's only used in formal writing like legal writing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_honorifics#:~:text=%22His%20Majesty%22.-,Dono%20%2F%20tono,sama%20in%20level%20of%20respect.
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Apr 30, 2024 17:18
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Boris Galerkin posted:Can someone explain marika's background story? Her dad was like the GoT Kingslayer guy so she's gotta pay the price for it
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Apr 30, 2024 17:23
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Zero VGS posted:Her dad was like the GoT Kingslayer guy so she's gotta pay the price for it That was the reason her dad married her off to some poo poo tier son of a poo poo tier minor lord sworn to a guy he knew would come out the other end of the assassination unscathed, specifically to protect her from having to also face the punishment for his crime like the rest of his family had to. So that's why Mariko's in this weird half state between being an extremely well respected and beloved vassal to a well respected lord AND a pariah that everyone whispers about and walks on eggshells around.
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Apr 30, 2024 17:50
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nine-gear crow posted:That was the reason her dad married her off to some poo poo tier son of a poo poo tier minor lord sworn to a guy he knew would come out the other end of the assassination unscathed, specifically to protect her from having to also face the punishment for his crime like the rest of his family had to. So that's why Mariko's in this weird half state between being an extremely well respected and beloved vassal to a well respected lord AND a pariah that everyone whispers about and walks on eggshells around. Sort of, he does say in the show that he's marrying her to Buntaro to protect her, but she's not being married off to some nobody. Hiromatsu is Toranaga's primary advisor, and Buntaro is his son and successor. They are not poo poo-tier lords, but highly important vassals for one of the most powerful clans in Japan. They are not on the same level as the main players, but they are on the same level as Yabushige. I'm not as well versed on how European nobility/royal ranks work but think of Toranaga as like, a duke - since I don't think it'd be right to say he's a prince or a king. Guys like Yabu and Hiromatsu are lesser lords, but still powerful with their own lands. An earl or baron or something like that? Jamwad Hilder fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 18:10
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I don't think it's really fair to call Toda Hiromatsu a poo poo tier minor lord. e;fb
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Apr 30, 2024 18:11
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PostNouveau posted:I dunno, I think the escape is impressive no matter who was chasing him. the escape is impressive, fighting off a small unarmoured and poorly trained infantry group isnt, keep in mind that in historical accounts of battles between knights vs levy infantry, knights have overwhelmingly favourable ratios so long as they’re not overwhelmed and knocked down. but their cardio and martial education is on point. so long as he doesn’t get surrounded or knocked down he has very good odds in conflict. highly recommend one day experiencing something of this sort, either at a reenactment event or LARP or whatever - you don’t GET it until you see an intimidating fucker with cool poo poo while you just have like a tunic and a stick, then throw in a tightly engrained class understanding of who a knight is and how terrifying they are supposed to be and you understand a lot more about just how easily they broke the ranks of peasant levies, and how the demystifying of the warrior class alongside the formation of professional armies began to change that relationship the way his armour allows him to close in, the poor level of drill from the hostile spears leading to them not creating an effective overlapping defence against him (the principle behind the phalanx or pike wall), likely their poorer nutrition as compared to buntaro and other samurai, his clear focus and objective of escape instead of a wasteful blaze of glory, all of these things add up to make his short term victory there impressive. what makes his escape impressive is that he doesn’t get caught napping, doesn’t suffer an inopportune hit to the legs, doesn’t suffer an infection from any of his wounds and doesn’t get intercepted by hostile patrols. they almost certainly had trackers following him, as well as a quick reaction force of mounted samurai acting to “save” toranaga’s party from the “bandit” ambush. that he managed to evade all of that and link up with the toranaga army on its march to the village is extremely extremely impressive.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:25
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Just found out this is what the old Yabu looked like. Surprised he isn't a reaction image or something.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:31
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Buntaro was not fighting peasants, he was fighting Ishido's men. They just weren't dressed up in armor because they weren't expecting a battle, they thought they were escorting some lady through the city.
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Apr 30, 2024 18:32
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After letting this sit with me for a week, I'm ready to watch the original miniseries and see how it is. When checking my file I see that none of the Japanese dialogue is subtitled in English, as it is mostly in the 2024 version. After googling, I see that this is very intentional to make the viewer feel as out of place as our dear Anjin. However, even scenes without him are the same. Want to double check, that is indeed the case? We are left to rely on body language and vocal intonation to read into what was occurring in those scenes? If so, I'm not going to criticize the decision until I watch it, but feels like there's going to be a substantial part of the plot that is hidden away. If this is not indeed the case, I will continue my digging for the proper version. Thanks!
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Apr 30, 2024 19:02
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Buntaro was not fighting peasants, he was fighting Ishido's men. They just weren't dressed up in armor because they weren't expecting a battle, they thought they were escorting some lady through the city. i assumed it was some peasants with a couple highly loyal samurai acting as honour guard, the peasants promised riches (or in the christian case, death to the heretic might be enough) and then summarily executed by ishido’s/kiyama+ohno’s actual men for deniability purposes, my bad if that wasn’t the case.
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Apr 30, 2024 19:17
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Mordja posted:Just found out this is what the old Yabu looked like. Oh yeah, 80s Yabu was loving great, but Modern Yabu is just transcendent. The 80s miniseries is still very much worth watching despite it being a product of its time and being forced to take much more liberties with everything thanks to budget and literally what and where they were permitted to film because they actually shot it all in Japan, in an around the real Osaka Castle, which is a hugely popular tourist attraction in the middle of a major modern city now. TraderStav posted:After letting this sit with me for a week, I'm ready to watch the original miniseries and see how it is. When checking my file I see that none of the Japanese dialogue is subtitled in English, as it is mostly in the 2024 version. After googling, I see that this is very intentional to make the viewer feel as out of place as our dear Anjin. Yes, that's exactly it. I have the official blu-ray version of it, and there's no subtitles on that either. Basically, if there's anything you absolutely NEED to know in order to understand the plot or what's going on, Orson Wells will chime in with the translation as the narrator. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 19:53
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nine-gear crow posted:Oh yeah, 80s Yabu was loving great, but Modern Yabu is just transcendent. The 80s miniseries is still very much worth watching despite it being a product of its time and being forced to take much more liberties with everything thanks to budget and literally what and where they were permitted to film because they actually shot it all in Japan, in an around the real Osaka Castle, which is a hugely popular tourist attraction in the middle of a major modern city now. Yeah, it's a deliberate choice to kinda make you experience things as Blackthorne does.
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Apr 30, 2024 20:28
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nine-gear crow posted:Oh yeah, 80s Yabu was loving great, but Modern Yabu is just transcendent. The 80s miniseries is still very much worth watching despite it being a product of its time and being forced to take much more liberties with everything thanks to budget and literally what and where they were permitted to film because they actually shot it all in Japan, in an around the real Osaka Castle, which is a hugely popular tourist attraction in the middle of a major modern city now. Ahh, there’s a narrator, that’ll fill in the gaps. Thanks! Going to get started on this once I’m through BES.
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Apr 30, 2024 20:30
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Jamwad Hilder posted:it's "-dono" and you have it backwards. It's basically the equivalent in a medieval European setting of someone saying "my lord" or "master" Oh it was -dono. I misread the subtitles. I don't think I got it backwards though? Mariko and Anjin address each other as Name-sama, while the guy who boils people alive addressed Anjin as Anjin-dono while Anjin still addressed him as Boilpeoplealive-sama. I assumed this was because the boils people alive person was a higher status than the "barbarian".
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Apr 30, 2024 21:30
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, it's a deliberate choice to kinda make you experience things as Blackthorne does. I figured it's about 30% this and 70% a 1980s American audience's antipathy towards reading subtitles
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Apr 30, 2024 21:33
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Boris Galerkin posted:Oh it was -dono. I misread the subtitles. It's was also used among the upper class as an honorific for someone of roughly equal status. Like once Anjin gets made hatomoto he's roughly equal status as Yabu, so Yabu starts using dono. Anjin keeps referring to him as Sama because he still doesn't understand the intricacies of the various titles.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:37
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So beginning of the show, Anjin is a literal nobody and Mariko tells him to address her as Mariko-tama to show respect that Mariko is a higher class/status than him. After Anjin was made hatamoko or whatever that is I'm 99% sure I still read subtitles from Mariko calling him Anjin-sama when it comes up. This is because Anjin commands more respect or…? And you're saying when Mr. Peopleboiler addresses Anjin as Anjin-dono it's because they are peers? E: I just randomly remembered the failson falling on his head and dying lmao I don't know if that scene was suppose to be comedy though Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 21:47
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Again, it's like how in a show/movie based in medieval European, nobles of certain a certain rank might refer to each other as "my lord" - think of it as a high end/polite version of saying "sir" or "mister". You wouldn't say it to a peasant (although they will probably say it to you) but for someone else who is about your equal, it's just a polite thing to do in terms of court etiquette or whatever.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:49
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Jamwad Hilder posted:Again, it's like how in a show/movie based in medieval European, nobles of certain a certain rank might refer to each other as "my lord" - think of it as a high end/very polite version of saying "sir" or "mister" or whatever That doesn't help because the subtitles have the higher status lords calling each other "Lord". It literally says "Lord" in the subtitles. The only time I ever saw -dono was in reference to Anjin-dono. I know nothing about Japanese.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:51
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Boris Galerkin posted:That doesn't help because the subtitles have the higher status lords calling each other "Lord". It literally says "Lord" in the subtitles. The only time I ever saw -dono was in reference to Anjin-dono. I know nothing about Japanese. -dono doesn't literally mean "my lord" it's just a similar turn of phrase similar to saying "my lord" in a western context. Maybe it will be helpful if I just copy-paste from wikipedia for you instead of trying to explain it. quote:Tono (殿 との), pronounced -dono (どの) when attached to a name, roughly means "lord" or "master". It does not equate noble status. Rather it is a term akin to "milord" or French "monseigneur" or Portuguese/Spanish/Italian "don", and lies below -sama in level of respect. This title is not commonly used in daily conversation, but it is still used in some types of written business correspondence, as well as on certificates and awards, and in written correspondence in tea ceremonies. It is also used to indicate that the person referred to has the same (high) rank as the referrer, yet commands respect from the speaker.
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Apr 30, 2024 21:59
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:yeah that's one change im not fond of, it should've been toranaga's order, not something volunteered. alternatively, if toranaga was shown to be about to order it himself and he rushed to offer it as a last ditch attempt to receive clemency, it'd go down better. that's the big one that was super out there for me. Jamwad Hilder posted:Well what I mean is that he wouldn't have been ordered to kill himself either. He might've been chastised at most, and that would've been the end of it. Seppuku is something that typically happened for extremely serious offenses as capital punishment, or in the aftermath of a war or battle as a way to save face when you're going to die/be executed anyway. It was not something you would have offered or been ordered to do just for acting above your station and standing up for your lord in an Important Meeting. He's an important son of an important retainer, if it was based in reality Toranaga would have been making excuses for him not to die. Ending his entire line by killing his own son also doesn't have much basis in reality but it's added for drama. Overall the prevalence of seppuku and everyone being obsessed with dying feels like shock value and orientalism that's in the original book, and the show, because it's dramatic and because it makes the reader/viewer think "wow this is such an alien situation for Blackthorne" I don't totally agree. I do think that a degree of orientalism stemming from the source material and how it overemphasizes and overuses this particular already-over-romanticized aspect of Samurai culture is a factor at play here, but I also don't think having the retainer offer and Toranaga wordlessly accept (creating a situation that wouldn't happen in real life) is a strict downgrade from Toranaga simply ordering the death himself or protecting his man. The implication to me was that Toranaga's excessive passivity in the exchange was a conscious effort to project next-level weakness to his enemies. He didn't want the retainer dead, that much is clear from the following scene where Toranaga opines to his bodyguard about the pointless bloodshed that he wants to bring to an end. However, he knew his enemies would expect it despite it not being called for because they are the verge of destroying him and will see the unreasonable expectation as one more way to press their advantage by robbing him of an asset. The whole reason the retainer speaks out of turn is because of how brazen the other four are being in abusing their power and rewriting the rules of the game. The way the scene is framed, its very clear everyone on Toranaga's side knows what's going on, but also that Toranaga's strategy is to buy time by looking as weak as he can so their arrogance over assured victory will give him room to come up with something. My view was the retainer offering his seppuku rather than Toranaga demanding was a deliberate act so his leader would not even have to show strength in commanding his subordinates. Instead he just silently ascents to something he makes clear he doesn't want the next time he's alone. re: the Blackthorn element , I also think it's important to keep in mind that those first two episodes are very much about showing that Blackthorn is a petty, close-minded simpleton on the subject of death. The juxtaposition of his contempt for the Dutch captain vs his instant (if confused) admiration for Yabu's attempt to kill himself so the sea won't be the thing that killed him and Mariko's conversation with the widow are just as much context for that offer of seppuku as Toranaga describing it as useless bloodshed. Blackthorn's dogmatic impulse to LIVE so his mission will be accomplished is also mirrored by the various Samurai's willingness to die for their mission, which makes that initial scorn Blackthorn has for the captain all the more ironic. I think there's a lot of nuance and complexity in how death is looked at by all the characters in those initial episodes, so I don't feel it's fair to boil it all down to the idea that these unrealistic seppukku are happening just so our POV character can be shocked by The Alien Customs Of The Foreigner even if that was the main thrust of the scenes in the source. The show isn't meant to reflect the historical reality that closely.
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Apr 30, 2024 22:12
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Yeah I think there's a misunderstanding between what I'm asking and what I'm writing down itt. I'm a nerd for language and I love how things can be conveyed depending on the choice of word. Things like hidden meanings and nuances and so forth. So I understand the definition of what -dono means because I read the same Wikipedia article for it. I guess what I'm really asking is what it means. If -sama is reserved for people that deserve respect, while -dono is the same but with the additional caveat that that person you're calling -dono is your peer, then does that mean Mariko calling Anjin Anjin-sama instead of Anjin-dono mean that Mariko recognizes that she isn't Anjin's peer but is his lessor? Similarly, am I to understand that the other regents don't call the main regent -dono because they recognize that he's above them? E: During the scene where Mariko negotiated with the tea house owner iirc the camera focused on the red writing on the tea cups a couple times during their negotiation. Did that have a cultural meaning? Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Apr 30, 2024 |
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Apr 30, 2024 22:13
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Pretty much, Mariko has an important role in Toranaga's court, but not much in the way of official ranking. The regent's not using -dono amongst themselves is kind of a catty power play. Toranaga won't do it because then he would be recognizing them as his peers which he won't because he's an old blood samurai. Ishido won't because he sees himself as head of the council and won't elevate anyone else to his equal. That sort of thing. The focus on the tea cup during the negotiations was about the owner of the tea house being out of her league when it comes to proper etiquette. There are certain ways to drink and hold the cup that are considered proper, certain half turns of the cup after taking a sip. You see Mariko and Fujiko doing it constantly whenever they're drinking. It doesn't mean anything to the story and it won't matter to a western audience but it's included to sell the authenticity to the Japanese audience.
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Apr 30, 2024 23:21
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:The focus on the tea cup during the negotiations was about the owner of the tea house being out of her league when it comes to proper etiquette. There are certain ways to drink and hold the cup that are considered proper, certain half turns of the cup after taking a sip. You see Mariko and Fujiko doing it constantly whenever they're drinking. It doesn't mean anything to the story and it won't matter to a western audience but it's included to sell the authenticity to the Japanese audience. Honestly I would love a 5 hour breakdown podcast/youtube that explains all of these subtle cultural things cause I think they're awesome. I mean maybe not exactly 5 hours but it's something I could spend 1+ hour watching.
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Apr 30, 2024 23:31
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Boris Galerkin posted:If -sama is reserved for people that deserve respect, while -dono is the same but with the additional caveat that that person you're calling -dono is your peer, then does that mean Mariko calling Anjin Anjin-sama instead of Anjin-dono mean that Mariko recognizes that she isn't Anjin's peer but is his lessor? I might be remembering wrong, but I don't think -sama automatically denotes your inferiority, just recognition of high rank. -dono then further implies that you are of equal rank.
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Apr 30, 2024 23:56
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Boris Galerkin posted:Honestly I would love a 5 hour breakdown podcast/youtube that explains all of these subtle cultural things cause I think they're awesome. I mean maybe not exactly 5 hours but it's something I could spend 1+ hour watching. Goons mentioned the show had a companion podcast that I assume covers some of what you're wondering about, if that's your sort of thing.
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May 1, 2024 00:28
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Mordja posted:Goons mentioned the show had a companion podcast that I assume covers some of what you're wondering about, if that's your sort of thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxcAHEEnamY There's also the Making Of Shogun videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4zv9U5YzXE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EkbeLiFkEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opn8qbERPBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7k65stCQJE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo2BAiSWAOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2ATfvWRuPE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRCdiq7_Wgg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN6FM27IQec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp2jXF2qxIw nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 00:38 on May 1, 2024 |
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May 1, 2024 00:35
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:what makes his escape impressive is that he doesn’t get caught napping, doesn’t suffer an inopportune hit to the legs, doesn’t suffer an infection from any of his wounds and doesn’t get intercepted by hostile patrols. they almost certainly had trackers following him, as well as a quick reaction force of mounted samurai acting to “save” toranaga’s party from the “bandit” ambush. that he managed to evade all of that and link up with the toranaga army on its march to the village is extremely extremely impressive. They say that he had a group of ronin help his escape, and that only 2 of them survived the ordeal to make it back to Toranaga. So he was being harried and had to evade and fight his way back to their lines. Which is definitely impressive, but he wasn't alone. I also assume the implication is that the ronin would do such a thing because he's a high ranking retainer of a powerful Lord, and would be able to 'join up', whatever that means for someone of their skills and background etc.
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May 1, 2024 02:34
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Sanguinia posted:big post This is a good post, thank you, my point was meant to be more from a historical perspective. I originally brought up the incident as an example of an earlier discussion point, that one common criticism from the domestic Japanese audience is that the violence is overdone for the time period. The way I see it is that, from a narrative perspective and within the story the show/book is telling, the events as they unfold make sense. From a historical perspective, seppuku was not nearly as common as the book/show makes it out to be (as you referred to, it's a bit romanticized to some extent), and this instance is not something that someone would be required to commit seppuku over. I actually happened across a reddit post recently. It's reddit, but the the AskHistorians subreddit is pretty good overall, and the guy responding to the question about whether it was realistic has a masters in Sengoku era Japan from a Japanese university, that covers the points I was trying to convey much better than I did in regards to Fumi's husband committing seppuku and killing his son: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1bh92gw/suicide_in_shogunera_japan/ quote:So the specific scenario in the show would not be realistic? quote:
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May 1, 2024 03:44
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