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counterfeitsaint
Feb 26, 2010

I'm a girl, and you're
gnomes, and it's like
what? Yikes.

nine-gear crow posted:

That was the reason her dad married her off to some poo poo tier son of a poo poo tier minor lord sworn to a guy he knew would come out the other end of the assassination unscathed, specifically to protect her from having to also face the punishment for his crime like the rest of his family had to. So that's why Mariko's in this weird half state between being an extremely well respected and beloved vassal to a well respected lord AND a pariah that everyone whispers about and walks on eggshells around.

Inconsistent stuff like this always muddies the waters when a show tries to present a "very different culture with very different values".

I still can't understand why her father would arrange things this way. He didn't protect her, he gave her 20 years of abject misery where she annually begs for permission to die. He must have known she would feel that way, since every person in Japan (except himself I guess) has the same high opinion of suicide, but he subjected his daughter to this life anyways, and then everyone claims it was out of love and a desire to protect her. Either present suicide as a controversial, complex topic that people of Japan have different opinions on, or if you want to present it as a universally revered act, then, you know, have everyone actually revere it.

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HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


counterfeitsaint posted:

Inconsistent stuff like this always muddies the waters when a show tries to present a "very different culture with very different values".

I still can't understand why her father would arrange things this way. He didn't protect her, he gave her 20 years of abject misery where she annually begs for permission to die. He must have known she would feel that way, since every person in Japan (except himself I guess) has the same high opinion of suicide, but he subjected his daughter to this life anyways, and then everyone claims it was out of love and a desire to protect her. Either present suicide as a controversial, complex topic that people of Japan have different opinions on, or if you want to present it as a universally revered act, then, you know, have everyone actually revere it.

i mean even with that i think he'd rather have her kill herself as a political statement instead of being made to kill her himself pointlessly

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~

Jamwad Hilder posted:

This is a good post, thank you, my point was meant to be more from a historical perspective. I originally brought up the incident as an example of an earlier discussion point, that one common criticism from the domestic Japanese audience is that the violence is overdone for the time period. The way I see it is that, from a narrative perspective and within the story the show/book is telling, the events as they unfold make sense. From a historical perspective, seppuku was not nearly as common as the book/show makes it out to be (as you referred to, it's a bit romanticized to some extent), and this instance is not something that someone would be required to commit seppuku over.

I actually happened across a reddit post recently. It's reddit, but the the AskHistorians subreddit is pretty good overall, and the guy responding to the question about whether it was realistic has a masters in Sengoku era Japan from a Japanese university, that covers the points I was trying to convey much better than I did in regards to Fumi's husband committing seppuku and killing his son:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1bh92gw/suicide_in_shogunera_japan/

Right, and I totally respect looking at the show from a realist perspective, that's 100% part of its appeal. My thinking was more to say that I don't view its realism as "realism," per se, but more that fantastic form of real that helped Game of Thrones appeal to so many people, or got people into the Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes movies (just as two off-the-cuff examples). It's Imitation Realism and it exists to make events feel especially grounded and therefore intensify our empathetic connection to the political, sociological and ideological conflicts our characters experience in tandem with their personal conflicts. The breaks from REAL Reality don't bother me in those types of stories so long as they have utility within the story and they don't compromise the world's internal logic.

As an example of the later, since the thread brought up Blue Eye Samurai, the biggest point where that show lost me (aside from some of the stuff during the ending) was the big mid-season climax because the amount of damage the protagonist took attacking the keep was so cartoonish it pushed me past the brink on my suspension of disbelief. That happening had utility within the story's themes, but it went so far past the limits the story had set for itself in previous content that it had me rolling my eyes and sucked me out of the narrative

Anyway those breaks from reality almost always create an opening for fine content creators like that Reddit Guy to teach me more things about actual history, so that's nice. :)

Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 06:19 on May 1, 2024

Perestroika
Apr 8, 2010

counterfeitsaint posted:

Inconsistent stuff like this always muddies the waters when a show tries to present a "very different culture with very different values".

I still can't understand why her father would arrange things this way. He didn't protect her, he gave her 20 years of abject misery where she annually begs for permission to die. He must have known she would feel that way, since every person in Japan (except himself I guess) has the same high opinion of suicide, but he subjected his daughter to this life anyways, and then everyone claims it was out of love and a desire to protect her. Either present suicide as a controversial, complex topic that people of Japan have different opinions on, or if you want to present it as a universally revered act, then, you know, have everyone actually revere it.

I mean, he still acted with limited information. Not everyone is Toranaga with the ability to perfectly gauge how everyone will act years down the line. Perhaps he hoped that Buntaro wouldn't be as much of a shitter and could offer Mariko something to live for. Maybe he thought her friendship with Ochiba could help her through. Maybe he had the idea that in the end his act of regicide wouldn't be thought of quite as poorly as it turned out to be. Or maybe he was just a desperate man in an impossible situation who deluded himself into thinking there's a way to safe his daughters life despite what he's about to do.

As it happens, the change to Fuji's eventual fate supports this. She works as an example that even in a circumstance considered very shameful, there is an alternative to suicide that is considered acceptable to both society as well as those affected.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011

I don't understand why I can't harass people online. Seriously, somebody please explain why I shouldn't be allowed to stalk others on social media!
The post on the previous page about ordered suicide was insightful, thanks. I wasn't sure if this show was based on history or if it was mythology, and I wasn't sure how culturally correct/accurate it was. My thought process on top ranking generals and advisors being ordered to commit suicide for the smallest things made no sense, was incredibly shortsighted, and in western media it's what the Bad Guys do.

It also didn't make any sense to me why buntaro didn't commit suicide on the pier when given everything the show showed me everyone else would have committed suicide when they realized they had lost. See: the people boiler ready to kill himself rather than drown. My conclusion was that buntaro was a double agent and "survived" (read: let live).

E: So is the show "over?" I read the plot summary of the book on Wikipedia and the show seems to have covered everything discussed in the summary.

Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 12:41 on May 1, 2024

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

Boris Galerkin posted:

The post on the previous page about ordered suicide was insightful, thanks. I wasn't sure if this show was based on history or if it was mythology, and I wasn't sure how culturally correct/accurate it was. My thought process on top ranking generals and advisors being ordered to commit suicide for the smallest things made no sense, was incredibly shortsighted, and in western media it's what the Bad Guys do.

It also didn't make any sense to me why buntaro didn't commit suicide on the pier when given everything the show showed me everyone else would have committed suicide when they realized they had lost. See: the people boiler ready to kill himself rather than drown. My conclusion was that buntaro was a double agent and "survived" (read: let live).

E: So is the show "over?" I read the plot summary of the book on Wikipedia and the show seems to have covered everything discussed in the summary.

Yeah, the adaptation of the book is complete. The book ends with a Toranaga internal monologue that basically matches what he was saying to Yabushige just before killing him.

SolarFire2
Oct 16, 2001

"You're awefully cute, but unfortunately for you, you're made of meat." - Meat And Sarcasm Guy!
Was there a single shot with actual sunlight in this series? One of the tells that it's very obviously shot in British Columbia is that it's always raining, drizzling or just cloudy.

Pattonesque
Jul 15, 2004
johnny jesus and the infield fly rule

SolarFire2 posted:

Was there a single shot with actual sunlight in this series? One of the tells that it's very obviously shot in British Columbia is that it's always raining, drizzling or just cloudy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eERRO_IyNsg

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!

Boris Galerkin posted:

It also didn't make any sense to me why buntaro didn't commit suicide on the pier when given everything the show showed me everyone else would have committed suicide when they realized they had lost. See: the people boiler ready to kill himself rather than drown. My conclusion was that buntaro was a double agent and "survived" (read: let live).

He was ready to, but was ordered not to. Buntaro is frequently presented as the outward ideal of a samurai. Approaching war the same way as the tea ceremony, as an art to be perfected. His relationship and abuse of Mariko is meant to juxtapose that ideal with the reality. That someone that spends their life as a child spring of aggression doesn't have an off switch.

Mordja
Apr 26, 2014

Hell Gem

Perestroika posted:

I mean, he still acted with limited information. Not everyone is Toranaga with the ability to perfectly gauge how everyone will act years down the line. Perhaps he hoped that Buntaro wouldn't be as much of a shitter and could offer Mariko something to live for. Maybe he thought her friendship with Ochiba could help her through. Maybe he had the idea that in the end his act of regicide wouldn't be thought of quite as poorly as it turned out to be. Or maybe he was just a desperate man in an impossible situation who deluded himself into thinking there's a way to safe his daughters life despite what he's about to do.

As it happens, the change to Fuji's eventual fate supports this. She works as an example that even in a circumstance considered very shameful, there is an alternative to suicide that is considered acceptable to both society as well as those affected.
Mariko's dad also thought/hoped that he'd come out on top after assassinating not-Nobunaga, anyway.

twistedmentat
Nov 21, 2003

Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to
I thought Mariko's father killed the Taiko, who was the one who killed the Nobunaga analog and took his place? That he was the one the regents were taking about when they said "Lets not pretend the Taiko was not a horrible person".

Or is the Taiko meant to be Nobunaga?

Also I can totally understand a father loving one of his children so much that he doesn't want them to die, and doing everything to prevent that, even going against cultural norms. Maybe Mariko's father would hope she would understand what he did and not desire to die constantly. Like he could save one person he loved so he did it. I don't think they say what other members of her family there were, but I assume that she had siblings, the boys would be expected to go to their deaths with honour, and probably any sisters would be too young to marry? I dunno, they don't get in it enough to really speculate beyond the most basic thoughts.

Mordja
Apr 26, 2014

Hell Gem

twistedmentat posted:

I thought Mariko's father killed the Taiko, who was the one who killed the Nobunaga analog and took his place? That he was the one the regents were taking about when they said "Lets not pretend the Taiko was not a horrible person".

Or is the Taiko meant to be Nobunaga?

Also I can totally understand a father loving one of his children so much that he doesn't want them to die, and doing everything to prevent that, even going against cultural norms. Maybe Mariko's father would hope she would understand what he did and not desire to die constantly. Like he could save one person he loved so he did it. I don't think they say what other members of her family there were, but I assume that she had siblings, the boys would be expected to go to their deaths with honour, and probably any sisters would be too young to marry? I dunno, they don't get in it enough to really speculate beyond the most basic thoughts.

No, the Taiko was a different guy who seized power after the assassination, and eventually died of old age, remember? There that flashback of him talking to Toranaga early on in the show.

nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

twistedmentat posted:

I thought Mariko's father killed the Taiko, who was the one who killed the Nobunaga analog and took his place? That he was the one the regents were taking about when they said "Lets not pretend the Taiko was not a horrible person".

Or is the Taiko meant to be Nobunaga?

Also I can totally understand a father loving one of his children so much that he doesn't want them to die, and doing everything to prevent that, even going against cultural norms. Maybe Mariko's father would hope she would understand what he did and not desire to die constantly. Like he could save one person he loved so he did it. I don't think they say what other members of her family there were, but I assume that she had siblings, the boys would be expected to go to their deaths with honour, and probably any sisters would be too young to marry? I dunno, they don't get in it enough to really speculate beyond the most basic thoughts.

The Taiko was the interim leader between Nobunaga and Tokugawa/Toranaga. Mariko's dad killed Nobunaga at, it's implied, either the behest or the consent of the Taiko because basically everyone in the aristocracy was fed up with Nobunaga's bullshit and took it upon himself to become the fall guy. So there was much preformative wailing and gnashing of teeth over it but everyone was all secretly like "Oh, thank god! :rolleyes:"

Pron on VHS
Nov 14, 2005

Blood Clots
Sweat Dries
Bones Heal
Suck it Up and Keep Wrestling
I don't think there is much to suggest the Taiko had anything to do with killing Gorunda/Nobunaga. In real life, I am pretty sure he did not and was pissed.

Jamwad Hilder
Apr 18, 2007

surfin usa
Ehhh I don't know about that. The Taiko (Hideyoshi) was married to Ochiba, who is Kuroda/Nobunaga's daughter in the show (niece IRL), although they married later so that could have been for legitimacy. It's not out of the realm of possibility I guess, but Hideyoshi/the Taiko owed his station in life to Kuroda, since he's the one who raised him up to become a powerful warlord by recognizing his talents despite being from a lower class background. In real life he was incredibly pissed about it and famously concluded a major war he was fighting against the Mori clan and force-marched his army back to central Japan in order to defeat Akechi.

Boris Galerkin
Dec 17, 2011

I don't understand why I can't harass people online. Seriously, somebody please explain why I shouldn't be allowed to stalk others on social media!
Are these characters having two different names the result of different transliteration at the time or did the author just make up fictional names for historical people for some reason?

If it's the latter why? If someone were to write a book set in Rome around 80 BCE they wouldn't call the main character Justin instead of Julius.

MrMojok
Jan 28, 2011

I think someone mentioned upthread that Clavell didn’t run his manuscript by anyone familiar with stuff.

So for example the name “Yabu” wouldn’t have been a name at that time, the poster said. Hence why, for this new version, they changed it to “Yabushige”

Macdeo Lurjtux
Jul 5, 2011

BRRREADSTOOORRM!

Boris Galerkin posted:

Are these characters having two different names the result of different transliteration at the time or did the author just make up fictional names for historical people for some reason?

If it's the latter why? If someone were to write a book set in Rome around 80 BCE they wouldn't call the main character Justin instead of Julius.

Julius Ceaser doesn't have direct descendants still in positions of power. The Tokugawa family are still pretty influential in modern Japanese politics and were still royalty until after WWII when all non-Emperor positions were abolished.

You can even see their hands in certain 'adjustments' made to Torunaga in the show. Since the early 2000s, they've run a full court PR push about how the Edo era was "an age of enlightenment, where all benefitted." And subsidized government programs to add such to school curriculums.

Hiroyuki Sanada has even given several interviews talking about Ieyasu being a man of peace but needed to be a hard man making hard decisions.

Jamwad Hilder
Apr 18, 2007

surfin usa

Boris Galerkin posted:

Are these characters having two different names the result of different transliteration at the time or did the author just make up fictional names for historical people for some reason?

If it's the latter why? If someone were to write a book set in Rome around 80 BCE they wouldn't call the main character Justin instead of Julius.

His characters are all based on actual people, but he changed the names so he could tell the story he wanted to about those real historical events without having to be completely faithful to history. Some people are aged up/down, people are related in different ways than they were in real life, people are in places they wouldn't have been, people die who did not historically, etc. The story still follows the broad strokes of what actually happened, but it's mostly fiction. I guess he thought it was easier to just give them different names than have to deal with any criticisms that might come up related to historical accuracy by using the real person as a character

Nice Tuckpointing!
Nov 3, 2005

I would equate Tokugawa to Augustus more than to Julius. A man who solidified rule and ushered in a system of order and (mostly) domestic peace for generations, but it came at the cost of some pretty nasty proscriptions, land grabs and assassinations. I guess that makes Oda Nobunaga the Julius Caesar and Hideyoshi the Mark Antony?

Changing the names is a bit weird, though. It makes some sense, as a halfway measure to stay close to history, but not creating out of whole cloth a fictional Gladiator protagonist like Maximus.

Kaedric
Sep 5, 2000

Something similar happened for the chinese movie "Hero", where the King's desire to unify China under one ruler is shown to be noble/heroic vs. power hungry or despotic.

As an ignorant white man I don't know which one is true but my asian wife told me it felt kinda gross.

grobbo
May 29, 2014
Hero is a fascinating one because unlike most uncomfortably sympathetic depictions of Great Men Who Do What Must Be Done, it doesn't really make the effort to humanise its king or develop his psychology.

Instead it has the courageous assassin stop dead in his tracks and declare that the tyrant who may or may not have massacred a bunch of innocent scribes earlier in the movie is in fact the great unifier the nation needs. The king nods approvingly from his throne and says he's glad someone understands what he's trying to achieve, and then has him killed anyway.

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

Hero sucks because it was the movie that kept Jet Li from being in the Matrix sequel and that would have been rad. I had really hoped a new program was going to teach Neo the true meaning of speed

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"
Also I think it was a miss to have Blackthorne give Fujiko a gun and then not have her be there for Osaka merking ninjas. She's actually there with him in the books!

Item Getter
Dec 14, 2015
What's the ratio of spoken Japanese compared to English (or other languages) in this show overall?

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020
Uh, 80/20? The great majority of it is Japanese with subtitles.

Zero VGS
Aug 16, 2002
ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE
Lipstick Apathy

Item Getter posted:

What's the ratio of spoken Japanese compared to English (or other languages) in this show overall?

It's mostly Japanese, like 3/4. The "Portuguese" which is acted in English is then mostly translated by one of the characters back to Japanese again, which is one of the most amusing components of the show.

FLIPADELPHIA
Apr 27, 2007

Heavy Shit
Grimey Drawer
Uhh I don't have any metrics handy but from what I recall, it's mostly Japanese. The only times "English" is spoken is when Blackthorne is communicating with people in Portuguese or otherwise muttering to himself. I'd say that's a little less than half of the show's dialog, if I had to guess.

Zero VGS
Aug 16, 2002
ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE
Lipstick Apathy
Like I'm a "dubs over subs" cretin, but this show requires reading subs. It's all paced knowing that Americans who went to public school will need to keep up. But it's not something you can have running in a background tab if that's your plan. It wouldn't make any sense if the Japanese was dubbed into English.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~

Zero VGS posted:

Like I'm a "dubs over subs" cretin, but this show requires reading subs. It's all paced knowing that Americans who went to public school will need to keep up. But it's not something you can have running in a background tab if that's your plan. It wouldn't make any sense if the Japanese was dubbed into English.

Isn't there an English Dub version though? I thought I saw that when I was looking at Hulu the other day.

pthighs
Jun 21, 2013

Pillbug

Sanguinia posted:

Isn't there an English Dub version though? I thought I saw that when I was looking at Hulu the other day.

There is, but you shouldn't watch it unless you are blind or something.

kiimo
Jul 24, 2003

Someone at work said they watched the dubbed version so they can be on their phone and I'm honestly having a hard time continuing to respect them as a person.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?


personally i’m waiting for a fan edit using a portuguese and dutch dub to accurately present the dialogue where appropriate

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

kiimo posted:

Someone at work said they watched the dubbed version so they can be on their phone and I'm honestly having a hard time continuing to respect them as a person.

I wouldn't respect them, either.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

It would be kind of hilarious if the dubbing made Mariko's translations of what Blackthorne is saying completely accurate. Just this twangy California voice telling Toranaga,"The pilot says gently caress all y'all!"

Eason the Fifth
Apr 9, 2020
Adding another level to the Anjin is upset about shrimp meme

Mauser
Dec 16, 2003

How did I even get here, son?!
Here I'm known as Translator. That's Japanese for translator.

Dr.Radical
Apr 3, 2011

kiimo posted:

Someone at work said they watched the dubbed version so they can be on their phone and I'm honestly having a hard time continuing to respect them as a person.

Don’t worry. The average Japanese person would watch this dubbed as well. Dubbed movies are still hella a thing here. Hollywood movies always have both dub and sub showings at theaters, when movies are shown on TV they’re always dubbed. You can switch audio to the original but there aren’t subtitles.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?

Now I'm thinking of the Japanese dub ALSO smoothing over Blackthorne's angry tirades ala Mariko.

Blackthorne (angrily gesticulating and flailing his arms): I am upset about shrimp.
Mariko: The Anjin is upset about shrimp.

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nine-gear crow
Aug 10, 2013

Jerusalem posted:

Now I'm thinking of the Japanese dub ALSO smoothing over Blackthorne's angry tirades ala Mariko.

Blackthorne (angrily gesticulating and flailing his arms): I am upset about shrimp.
Mariko: The Anjin is upset about shrimp.

God, that's got me wondering now, if the show is reverse subtitled in Japan with all the English subbed instead, does the joke work in reverse where Blackthorne's angry rants are fully and accurately transcribed and Mariko terse translations are still "The Anjin is upset about shrimp."

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