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That too, but my initial setup wasn't really doing enough damage to make it anything other than a slog and shuffling some quartz around made it go by way faster.
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Aug 26, 2017 17:02
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Taear posted:Is Cold Steel as infinitely annoying and Anime as trails in the sky? short answer: no 
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Aug 26, 2017 17:07
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Cold Steel is more anime.. Also a slightly different one.
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Aug 26, 2017 19:08
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Nomadic Scholar posted:Well I'd ask why Enix did that to 7th saga, but goddamnit I know why. Yeah I'll just play mystic ark instead. Sisyphusian slogs are not what I want to deal with rn. it's possible for 7th saga to become impossible depending on what the other heroes do
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Aug 26, 2017 19:56
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What the Christ. The game has straight up lose states?
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Aug 26, 2017 20:36
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Nomadic Scholar posted:What the Christ. The game has straight up lose states? Sort of. There's a specific character who effectively is unbeatable once they hit a certain level and if they steal your magic plot device you're basically hosed.
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Aug 26, 2017 20:38
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iirc it's esuna and she's a danger if you chose leges (which you did  ) because she'll never join him specifically, and the best way to prevent her from becoming the late-game rival is to make her a party member
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Aug 26, 2017 20:42
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It's a bug that I think is only in the US version?
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Aug 26, 2017 20:47
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Mr. Maltose posted:It's a bug that I think is only in the US version? Not technically a bug. They slashed the player character's stat gains on level in the US version, but all the NPCs get their full stats. So if you level up they become more and more difficult relative to you since they get more powerful. There are more than a few that are effectively impossible, but that one is literally mathematically impossible past a certain level IIRC. Also the rival is randomly chosen in every game and sometimes your buddy character will just rob you which is fun.
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Aug 26, 2017 20:50
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I could have sworn that involved the bugged spell that restores all hp and mp including what you spend to cast it but lord knows it's a bad enough game to have several loss states
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Aug 26, 2017 22:17
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Nomadic Scholar posted:What the Christ. The game has straight up lose states? From what I hear if you get the healer as your rival and level up too much they get a full heal spell. And since your stat gains suck, it makes the game mathematically impossible to beat because there's no way for you to kill the infinite-MP boss before it full-heals itself, which it does regularly.
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Aug 26, 2017 22:22
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Good god that Secret of Mana reboot looks terrible. They don't add any new content like the missing story in the second half of the game, but they are adding terrible voice acting and a loving minimap. The original defined my early childhood console gaming but I feel like I'm just not the target audience here.
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Aug 26, 2017 23:22
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on the other hand, it will be good if they make the combat actually good
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Aug 27, 2017 00:56
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What's wrong with a minimap? A lot of the SoM maps suck dicks and are hard to find your way around. Minimap doesn't exactly harm anything. I don't really care about voice acting either way.
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Aug 27, 2017 00:59
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Morpheus posted:What's wrong with a minimap? A lot of the SoM maps suck dicks and are hard to find your way around. Minimap doesn't exactly harm anything. I hate change 
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Aug 27, 2017 01:05
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There are some patches on romhacking.net that attempt to make 7th Saga less bad. One just patches the jp game with the English script so you don't get loving owned by a bat enemy on world map. I think there are others that attempt to fully rebalance it but they are probably bad
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Aug 27, 2017 03:52
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The Colonel posted:on the other hand, it will be good if they make the combat actually good Pretty much. I wanted to like SoM but the shabby combat with questionable hit boxes really killed the experience for me. Also iirc grinding magic was like FFII in that you had to use spells like 100 times each before they actually become worth using.
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Aug 27, 2017 03:57
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I like the som dance of trying to keep all enemies on the screen stunned at once I do NOT like Sprite freezing the screen every five seconds with spell..
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Aug 27, 2017 03:58
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U-DO Burger posted:Pretty much. I wanted to like SoM but the shabby combat with questionable hit boxes really killed the experience for me. Also iirc grinding magic was like FFII in that you had to use spells like 100 times each before they actually become worth using. Turns out a big part of that is that you earn magic levels half as fast when you cast them in 'safe' zones (like at an Inn). It's not a great system regardless, but that's something you can say about most of the game's mechanics.
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Aug 27, 2017 04:02
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Aug 27, 2017 04:06
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U-DO Burger posted:Pretty much. I wanted to like SoM but the shabby combat with questionable hit boxes really killed the experience for me. Also iirc grinding magic was like FFII in that you had to use spells like 100 times each before they actually become worth using. nah grinding magic in og secret of mana was actually pretty straightforward, and because the low exp threshold for the first five levels, it was easy to level your elements quickly. the problem was that it had a hard cap based on your progression so you waste 99% of the magic experience you get in the game. pair that with how if you hit monsters with an element they weren't weak against, it generally did <100 damage (usually 1), consequentially discouraging the use of all your elements so various ones would get left behind, and you have a system that our brains remember as having been really grindy to play catch-up against. also, hitboxes were surprisingly consistent. the real problem is that secret of mana had evasion and miss chance like any normal rpg, but it didn't effectively communicate when attacks were evaded or you just whiffed. if you knew what you were looking at, you'd notice that hitboxes connected but the enemy made <scratchy sound effect> and did a weird block animation for a couple frames. it didn't print a number or maybe or it showed a 0, but that was "in an action game, that's a clean hit, but this is an rpg so that's a miss/evade because the rng is fuckin with you" the messy workaround was that the first hit of a charge attack of at least lv2 has a 100% hit rate. screw the damage bonus, it was all about the hit% boost. Fur20 fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Aug 27, 2017 |
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Aug 27, 2017 04:32
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LoM is Square at the top of their game and it's a shame I didn't appreciate it as much as I should have when it came out.
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Aug 27, 2017 13:32
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did you know that the singer of song of mana sang cotton eye joe? did you know that she sang the song because the composer heard her from loving BAYWATCH
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Aug 27, 2017 13:37
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SoM is a really earnest and charming game with gorgeous spritework and music, and anyone who doesn't like it is a monster IMO
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Aug 27, 2017 17:28
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thorsilver posted:SoM is a really earnest and charming game with gorgeous spritework and music, and anyone who doesn't like it is a monster IMO It can be all of those things and still be bad as an actual video game. Like part of the reason SoM is "I'm excited about this" instead of "Who cares" is because it has a delightful presentation wrapped up in some truly meh gameplay. If they can fix the gameplay that will do a lot for it.
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Aug 27, 2017 17:37
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ImpAtom posted:It can be all of those things and still be bad as an actual video game. What is wrong with SoM's combat? I like it.
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Aug 27, 2017 17:49
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Best PS1 game
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Aug 27, 2017 18:16
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ImpAtom posted:It can be all of those things and still be bad as an actual video game. Actually it's good. Games are more than just a mechanical process of hitboxes interacting, delightful presentation adds a lot Libluini posted:What is wrong with SoM's combat? I like it. Also this
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Aug 27, 2017 19:35
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LoM is one of the most frustrating things I've ever tried to play, it's completely miserable mechanically But I guess it looks pretty so that invalidates all of the negatives that the game has I dunno
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Aug 27, 2017 19:46
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thorsilver posted:Actually it's good. Games are more than just a mechanical process of hitboxes interacting, delightful presentation adds a lot It adds a lot but doesn't actually do much if the gameplay is badly designed. There are a lot of genuinely visually impressive games that none the less are complete rear end to play and no amount of presentation can save that. And SoM has a lot of genuinely badly designed gameplay. It has a pretty poor UI, extremely poor hitboxes and feedback, the spell system is awkward and involves constant stopping of the game, the actual core damage numbers and mechanics are all over the place, and in general it's a real mess of design elements held together by a pretty package. This isn't a particualrly controversial statement. Even people who love SoM admit they love it in spite of its many flaws and there's a reason the response to this has been "boy, this'll be awesome if they fix the game!"
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Aug 27, 2017 19:51
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The charge system in SoM is hilariously bad and even worse when you actually know how it works, not that the game tells you because Mana games are utterly opaque
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Aug 27, 2017 19:53
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Is there something to read or Youtube that goes in depth into the SoM mechanics? It's been a long time since I played it (although I do remember the lovely hitboxes), but I'd be curious to learn about the numerical mechanics being actually lovely.
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Aug 27, 2017 19:57
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CubeTheory posted:Best PS1 game actually saga frontier 2 is the best ps1 g ame
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Aug 27, 2017 20:00
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The best PS1 games are Breath of Fire 3 and 4 
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Aug 27, 2017 20:04
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The phone port of Secret of Mana added hitsparks when you attack, it's not that it has poor hitboxes it's that your attacks can miss and also be taken by other characters if you're not the first one to hit an enemy before the next tick of the turn system. Like you're hitting the enemy but it's getting eaten by who attacked first. Like I guess that is lovely but it never bothered me because the game is super easy to begin with.
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Aug 27, 2017 20:06
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corn in the bible posted:actually saga frontier is the best ps1 game (also legend of legaia)
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Aug 27, 2017 20:07
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Hivac posted:LoM is one of the most frustrating things I've ever tried to play, it's completely miserable mechanically i mean, it's not bad. it's just that all the other options the game offers you, like magic instruments and monster pets and golem crafting, are so loving opaque and impenetrable that while they're technically viable options if you have the patience to figure them out like nobody on all the net ever has before in all of twenty years, you will never, ever use them in lieu of "punch thing until it dies."
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Aug 27, 2017 20:34
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The White Dragon posted:i mean, it's not bad. it's just that all the other options the game offers you, like magic instruments and monster pets and golem crafting, are so loving opaque and impenetrable that while they're technically viable options if you have the patience to figure them out like nobody on all the net ever has before in all of twenty years, you will never, ever use them in lieu of "punch thing until it dies." Even the mechanics for just doing the content the game has to offer are complete nonsense which drives me up the wall
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Aug 27, 2017 20:41
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ImpAtom posted:It adds a lot but doesn't actually do much if the gameplay is badly designed. There are a lot of genuinely visually impressive games that none the less are complete rear end to play and no amount of presentation can save that. Yeah the game from 1993 doesn't live up to 2017 design standards, but it doesn't decrease my enjoyment at all personally. I don't agree that it's 'genuinely badly designed'. Go read reviews from the time, the ring menu interface was widely praised, as was the gameplay. Edge Magazine, known here in the UK for being relative hardasses, had this to say at the time: "But within this well-worn framework Mana includes some of the best game design and features ever seen: simultaneous three-player action, the best combat system ever designed, the best player interface ever designed, a superb control system, and yes, some of the most engrossing and rewarding gameplay yet. It really is in a class of its own as far as action RPGs or adventures go." The game's a classic and a product of its time, of course it's going to whither under the light of modern design standards. But judged against its contemporaries it's fantastic, and the design decisions taken may not be to your taste but they were mostly well-received and proved influential on the genre. I can agree they're outdated but you make it sound like the game is some crime against ARPGs and UI design, which is a bit extreme. I'm perfectly happy playing it today without any of that poo poo bothering me, as are many others.
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Aug 27, 2017 20:42
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When I played SoM I didn't go "wow this isn't as good as games today", I went "well that was a game that I played I guess". I don't absolutely loathe SoM like I do with LoM but SoM didn't really blow me away either
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Aug 27, 2017 20:47
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