|
Typically a labor union doesn't let the boss be a member. I think that's called a gang.
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 19:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 15:49 |
|
|
The Puppy Bowl posted:I really appreciate this post. You illustrate your position very well. I fully agree that that if anything surpasses the decline of unions as a driver of inequality it's racism used to pit working class people against one another. Of course we're not going to make cops stop being fascists enforcing racist and punitive laws by getting rid of their union, and I'm not suggest destroy union -> policing fixed. However, those organizations are, frankly, acting as a cartel to loot the city's budget while simultaneously acquiring more and more weapons and latitude to use those weapons. What I'm suggesting is that the police unions (and opaque 501(3)(c) police foundations but that's a tangent) are primarily acting as spoilers and blockers to any meaningful improvement in public safety and equitable justice by demanding and ever-increasing money for themselves and externalizing the costs of their existence like lawsuit settlements back onto the city. That money goes to pay for (and legally shield the providers of) a community beatings service rather than school, food, medical care, housing, public utilities, substance abuse treatment, or anything else that might actually improve the well-being of communities here. That money then leaves Seattle entirely because over 80% of cops who police here don't live here. But that's all just a side show to the real evil of police unions, which is their political and legal advocacy outside the context of obtaining a better deal for cops as workers. This isn't a rail against police unions because they're unions that drive bad results for the general public via collective bargaining (although they do), it's a rail against police unions because they are fascist advocacy groups that happen to operate under the legal aegis of the NLRA and PSFNA.
That advocacy is being paid for from union funds and provided by union officials. Would cops find different organizing methods in the absence of the union legal structures that currently provide them with extremely convenient fundraising and negotiating levers? Yes, I mentioned another one above that they're already using. Does that justify providing these convenient fundraising and negotiating levers to fascists? Absolutely not, they should be abolished.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 20:41
|
|
|
seiferguy posted:Police unions are more guilds than anything, and shouldn't be considered part of the labor movement. Unions generally won't defend a member if they kill someone on the job. I think this distinction is a pretty insightful one. The Fraternal Order of Police has 330,000 members and it doesn't even pretend to be a union. The largest nominal police union is the New York's Police Benevolent Association with 24,000 members, and it has made it clear that it wants nothing to do with labor unions generally. The International Brotherhood of Police Officers is the next largest, with 20,000 members, and while it is affiliated with the AFL-CIO they've repeatedly had to stave off being kicked out because they refuse to actually participate in union activities for member unions. These groups are led by the same sergeants, detectives, and captains that lead police formally. They advocate solely for their own immediate self-interest, and violently reject any form of oversight. These organizations aren't labor unions, they're modern guilds. And frankly that's being very generous, because often there appears to be very little difference between these groups and the unruly Republican gangs that count so many cops as their members. Kaal fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Aug 19, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 20:53
|
|
|
One of my biggest personal fears is that we legislatively defund the police, and the police unions react by reorganizing their membership as a modern freikorps.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 21:12
|
|
|
poo poo POST MALONE posted:Typically a labor union doesn't let the boss be a member. Low-level managers used to be included before Taft-Hartley and was a great way to break union organization. People keep forgetting that unions are literally nothing but the sum of their members. If you have a bunch of fascists form a union, the union will be fascist. Breaking the Union doesn’t stop them from beating the poo poo out of people and maiming journalists.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 21:19
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:Big rear end Supporting Argument Dump Pfft, you may be right. I do think we basically need to tear down our current police departments and build institutions actually dedicated to public safety in their place. I have no ideological objection to law enforcement being allowed to unionize, but that doesn't change the fact that the actual cop union's we have are fascist, destructively self-interested, and even anti-labor. I'd like to see policing institutions changed into something socially valuable. That's certainly harder while police unions exist. Maybe impossible. It just worries me deeply that effective attacks on police unions will be another nail in the American labor movement's coffin. A lot of these arguments (at least those not centering on fascism) will be and have been deployed by conservatives to attack teachers. Hopefully opinion and demographic shifts will address that concern. Sadly hasn't been the case thus far.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 21:38
|
|
|
Maybe it isn't required to eliminate the legal possibility of police unions and settle for finding a pretext to launch the current ones into the phantom zone like Reagan did with PATCO in 1981 but to be honest, I don't know. It feels like the entire local political order in every major city has been turned into a total copocracy over the last 20 years. I don't know what that would pretext would even be since apparently everything is legal for cops now.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 21:57
|
|
|
I think the key element is just gaining and maintaining local political power, so that the folks overseeing the legislation and crafting the contracts are acting morally from the outset. If the teachers unions were demanding a right to corporal punishment, or if the firefighter unions were ransoming burning buildings, then the public officials would feel free to just cut ties with those unions in the name of reform. City governments and police organizations need to see municipalities willing to take on rogue police departments and come out on top, even if it means restarting the program from the ground up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 22:17
|
|
|
Preach. I'm really pulling for Sarah Iannarone to upset Wheeler in the Portland Mayoral race. Her campaign has been lazer focused on Wheeler's horrific tenure as police commissioner so if she wins the political pressure will be heavy on her to make real changes to the PPB. Read real change as gut their budget with a chainsaw, hand over oversight to JoAnne Hardesty, and hold cops accountable for criminal acts. Though just not giving them the go ahead to beat the poo poo out of my neighbors every night would be a nice change.
|
|
#
?
Aug 19, 2020 22:26
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:One of my biggest personal fears is that we legislatively defund the police, and the police unions react by reorganizing their membership as a modern freikorps. Yeah imagine if the cops were just running around committing violence against whoever they felt like. That would be a terrible thing to suddenly start happening.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2020 06:34
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:Yeah imagine if the cops were just running around committing violence against whoever they felt like. That would be a terrible thing to suddenly start happening. I think you're misreading that as an argument against defunding; it's actually an argument in favor of denazification.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2020 07:37
|
|
|
Man, what does that even look like?
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2020 08:09
|
|
|
The Puppy Bowl posted:Man, what does that even look like? To start, a truth & reconciliation commission empowered with sweeping subpoena and prosecutorial authority, distinct from and independent from any current authority with existing links to SPD and other local law enforcement, using an unlimited charter to investigate every current and former member of the SPD including non-sworn staff and union officials for any city, state, or federal crimes committed during their tenure with the department, with all proceedings in public and findings compiled and published (not just court proceedings, but all investigatory findings so that any findings that cannot be prosecuted are also available for public consumption). Also a politically reliable military force to forcibly disarm them and to remain on call to keep them disarmed. Also funding to make civil restitution to victims of the police. We're talking about excising a paramilitary cartel from civil society. You cut it out root and branch or it cuts you out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2020 08:33
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:To start, a truth & reconciliation commission... Also a politically reliable military force to forcibly disarm them and to remain on call to keep them disarmed. So good guys with guns to stop the bad guys with guns then? I'm being purposely (but only very slightly) reductive here but you've gotta refine that if this is supposed to get any meaningful platform.
|
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2020 16:18
|
|
|
Sighence posted:So good guys with guns to stop the bad guys with guns then? Literally, yes. Good guys with guns to stop bad guys with guns. They need to be not already in bed with the cops on a day to day basis, willing to follow orders that will put the cops in a bad spot, and armed and trained and in sufficient numbers to suppress the cops if they decide armed resistance is better than going on trial for their many, many crimes. This doesn't have to be some mythical force of morally perfect power rangers (or the Red Guard or whatever you're assuming I meant), it could be the national guard we already have. Ed: the reason I specified politically reliable is that we have a surfeit of paramilitaries that I'm confident could not be relied upon in this situation. I would assume that a law enforcement arm with a standing mutual aid compact with the SPD is not going to come down on the right side if directed to disarm and/or arrest them en masse. That rules out basically every other local PD, KCSO, and Washington State Patrol. National Guard is a bit of a gamble but they're not a standing law enforcement agency and do not have the kind of personnel interchange with cops that every other regular civilian law enforcement agency does. The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Aug 21, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2020 16:43
|
|
|
I’m a bit late to this sadly, but as a city employee and union member I am more worried about police unions existing than going away. Right now if we went on strike the cops would not join us in solidarity as city employees. They would come and beat the poo poo out of us. And some labor leaders would shrug and sit by because it’s all unions. But that’s bullshit. Cops are actual loving union busters. I would love for my contact to matter even a hundredth as much as theirs seems to, but if they went away it could only strengthen my position at the bargaining table.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2020 12:38
|
|
|
Once again my escalation of hyperbolic rhetoric about cops being total loving shitbags is only one step ahead of the cops' escalation of being total loving shitbags :| https://twitter.com/TawasiSoce/status/1296866029587447808?s=20
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2020 18:26
|
|
|
George posted:I’m a bit late to this sadly, but as a city employee and union member I am more worried about police unions existing than going away. Right now if we went on strike the cops would not join us in solidarity as city employees. They would come and beat the poo poo out of us. And some labor leaders would shrug and sit by because it’s all unions. Hey brother/sister, I'm also a city employee union member. The cops are for sure union busting pieces of poo poo regardless of if they have their own representation or not. My worry is the politics of other city employees getting benefits through their unions when the politicians have the excuse of "Even our cops don't have that!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2020 21:26
|
|
|
Portland cops just witnessed a Proud Boy with an open arrest warrant commit assault, then let him move through their riot line so that that he could get to a vehicle and escape. And they failed to declare an unlawful assembly while PBs and assorted other fascists were throwing pipebombs, beating people on the ground, breaking Robert Evans's hand, macing counterprotesters (and themselves by accident), throwing smoke grenades, shooting people with pellet and paintball guns, brandishing the regular kind of guns, and stabbing people with shields modified with 3 inch long steel screws coming out the front, but have now declared one that the PBs are all safely in their vehicles and on their way home. Ed: and now they're having their own turn beating the poo poo out of protesters. The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Aug 22, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2020 22:50
|
|
|
The Oldest Man posted:Portland cops just witnessed a Proud Boy with an open arrest warrant commit assault, then let him move through their riot line so that that he could get to a vehicle and escape. This keeps happening.
|
|
#
?
Aug 23, 2020 17:07
|
|
|
https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/...ujgHpEO66nzaUf4 Oh no not Airbnb. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2020 21:23
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:https://pamplinmedia.com/pt/9-news/...ujgHpEO66nzaUf4 Jesus Christ, that's so misleading. Microsoft is closing all of their retail stores, and Google is closing a bunch of offices and converting employees to WFH permanently (even after the pandemic). I'm sure a bunch of those other closures are pandemic-related, too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2020 21:27
|
|
|
Portland Tribune posted:The numbers tell a story, but not the whole story: 87 straight nights of protest on the streets of Portland, 23 more arrested Sunday night and nearly 20 riots declared over the past three months. Yup, the number of arrests and the number of businesses closed, that's the whole story, nothing more to see. No more numbers that might be relevant to anything.
|
|
#
?
Aug 27, 2020 21:38
|
|
|
Corporate-owned news goes and interviews a corporate developer with an obvious personal incentive to misattribute the slowdown in the market, he does so, corporate-owned news clutches pearls. Corporate-owned news proceeds to ask police if protests against police are bad. Police respond in the affirmative. Corporate-owned news concludes that number needs protests to end. By the way, if it's not obvious, the Greg Goodmans in republican areas are the ones pressuring city government to end lockdowns. If he wasn't blaming the protests for this he'd be demanding an end to health department restrictions on business, because otherwise the people who pay his salary would be shouting at him about why do we pay you. The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Aug 28, 2020 |
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 00:47
|
|
|
Infallible logic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 00:50
|
|
|
The Puppy Bowl posted:Hey brother/sister, I'm also a city employee union member. The cops are for sure union busting pieces of poo poo regardless of if they have their own representation or not. My worry is the politics of other city employees getting benefits through their unions when the politicians have the excuse of "Even our cops don't have that!" When Scott Walker gutted public unions in Wisconsin the police and fire departments were specifically excluded. If your benefits are at risk the cops sharing in those benefits will not protect you.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 02:04
|
|
|
I'm kind of thinking the reverse. If cops have those protections stripped from them I worry we'll shortly follow. Of course the politics around these issues are evolving daily so it's hard to forecast where public opinion will be.
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 05:46
|
|
|
Teabag Dome Scandal posted:When Scott Walker gutted public unions in Wisconsin the police and fire departments were specifically excluded. If your benefits are at risk the cops sharing in those benefits will not protect you. firefighters joined the protests in wisconsin, cops didn’t solidarity!
|
|
#
?
Aug 28, 2020 16:52
|
|
|
So some Patriot Prayer scumbag got hisself shot to death last night I guess? I'm gonna laugh so hard when they find the shooter and it turns out to be another white supremacist.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2020 17:32
|
|
|
PNW is on fire again. This sucks 
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 03:57
|
|
|
strange feelings re Daisy posted:PNW is on fire again. This sucks Last time this happened in Seattle my eye got infected from the smoke
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
We made it all the way to September before the sun got blotted out by atmospheric particulate. Hell yeah I love reflecting on the brutal objective reality of 2020.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 04:23
|
|
|
It came in fast too. Beautiful to smoked out in like an hour and a half.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 04:30
|
|
|
Lol and now the power is out like everywhere’s.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 06:20
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:Lol and now the power is out like everywhere’s. Mine's come back on already. Was out for about 2 hours.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 07:24
|
|
|
Looks like Malden was more or less obliterated in a couple of hours earlier today https://twitter.com/ZachAndersTV/status/1303122145682141186
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2020 08:53
|
|
|
Southern Oregon is burning hard yesterday and some today. Didn't have to evacuate, but on high alert. Stay safe out there goons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2020 02:07
|
|
|
i’m reminded of the story about the “antifa family” chased out of forks earlier this year https://twitter.com/ryanlcooper/status/1304426897313538048?s=21
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 20:29
|
|
|
Yeah somebody is priming the crazies for violence intentionally. I’m quite worried about it after election night regardless of how it goes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 20:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 24, 2024 15:49 |
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:Yeah the president is priming the crazies for violence intentionally. I’m quite worried about it after election night regardless of how it goes. FTFY
|
|
#
?
Sep 12, 2020 08:22
|
|