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The power-loader is a great example of Chekov's Gun done right, because its established early on but you kinda just chalk it up to Cameron wanting a cool looking futuristic machine to show off in that scene. By the time the Queen shows up on the ship you've kinda forgotten about it, so it makes for a big "hell yea" when the doors open and she stomps out. The power-loader fight with the Queen had cool factor and novelty to it. The sequence at the end of Covenant really brings nothing new to the table. So gratuitous isn't really the right word for it, but its trite and unnecessary.
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May 26, 2017 15:21
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UnsuitableWasp posted:Edit: I also really liked one difference between Walter and David- their masculinity. David in both movies has a more delicate voice and demeanor- he's graceful where Walter seems more stiff and rough. David's "My, my. You're pregnant." line comes to mind- it sound like a mixture of mockery, pettiness and jealousy. While Walter seems to be more masculine- just look at the way he walks around the Covenant- he also has a way deeper voice and in their fight it's made clear he's stronger and faster. I don't know if this was done merely to contrast the two androids so we as viewers don't get confused or was it some sort of commentary about the male/female, creativity/brute force, but I liked it. Too, the angles they were shooting it always looked like Walter had like 6" on David in height and shoulder width. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 15:40 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 15:38
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Too, the angles they were shooting it always looked like Walter had like 6" on David in height and shoulder width. Yeah you're right- David was barefoot in the whole movie and was wearing a lot less clothes, so he looked shorter and less bulky .
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May 26, 2017 15:45
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Aliens was cool and fanservice-y "What if Ripley fought the Alien in a giant robot suit gently caress yea" and others have explained how it's allowing Ripley to fight her demons. Alien : Covenant's sequence has meaning for Daniels, too. She's got to smash the Alien with the truck - the last vestige of a connection she held to her dead husband. I'm not totally clear on whether it was full of lumber (she talks about there being all that lumber on board?) or was just a construction vehicle, but either way its express purpose was to build their cabin. For a moment, she's trying to free herself from him, since it was James Franco's plan to build the cabin after all. Maybe that's why she's doomed in the end - she can't fully let go of his old dream and asks Walter / David to help her build the cabin before she learns who he really is.
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May 26, 2017 15:49
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dont even fink about it posted:The whole final action sequence of the movie where they chase around aliens and do things like zipline to the bottom of the transport, while Katherine Waterston does her best Sigourney Weaver impression, is perhaps the most un-earned and non-suspenseful sequence in the history of alien movies, which is a high bar to cross after AVP2. Worse yet, it's intentionally built that way. The classic Bad Cinema Discusso thing is not caring about how characters are written or performed in film. I don't hate Covenant as much as some people, but hooooly poo poo anyone not played by Fassbender or Pearce is a complete cardboard cutout. Why does anybody do anything? Why should I care? We've got almost an entire cast of characters for which this is just a huge nothing. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 16:40 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 16:37
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K. Waste posted:I didn't say the scene wasn't well-done, I'm saying 'necessity' has nothing to do with it. The powerloader fight does not occur because it's necessary - it occurs in order to escalate the conflict between Ripley and her 'personal demons,' after it has already technically been resolved in a previous scene. "Necessary" is a word you apparently have no actual definition for because you're struggling to retroactively justify a conclusion you came to, as with almost every single argument you've made in this thread, because it's clear you're arguing from intentionally contrarian viewpoints instead of anything you actually believe. The final powerloder scene is necessary because it brings the overall themes of the film together in a critical way that would be absent without it. It is Ripley embracing her new life (recall that the powerloader is something she knows how to use because of her new job and is one of the few things on the ship that is not a military weapon) and personally using the empowerment of her new life in order to personally overcome the physical representation of her trauma in in order to protect her new daughter. The scene in the hive does not satisfy that requirement at all. It is not gratuitous, it is the end of Ripley's character arc, where she fully embraces her new life and uses it to empower herself. You, completely missing the point, think Aliens should have ended with Ripley taking up a gun and that is end of her arc? In a film where guns consistently shown as being a poor answer? That would have devalued a lot of the film and just made it so Ripley's answer to her problems was taping a flamethrower to a machine gun and that solves everything. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 16:57 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 16:49
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Basebf555 posted:The power-loader is a great example of Chekov's Gun done right, because its established early on but you kinda just chalk it up to Cameron wanting a cool looking futuristic machine to show off in that scene. By the time the Queen shows up on the ship you've kinda forgotten about it, so it makes for a big "hell yea" when the doors open and she stomps out Amen. It's a great idea on it's own and it's made so much better by that big long stretch where you're like "wtf why did Ripley leave Newt alone like this???" which, relevant to this thread, strikes me as something stupid that a character does that makes a movie better.
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May 26, 2017 16:50
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CelticPredator posted:People rely on computers telling them what to do. If they say the air is fine, it's fine. If they say the ship is secure, its secure. If they say look in the organic fleshy vagina flower, you look. It's safe. Trained astronauts know how their instruments work and are familiar with how they can fail; your attitude is naive. But the alien movies have never been about astronauts.
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May 26, 2017 16:53
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VideoGames posted:Does wheat grow on its own like that or would it have to be tended to? Lope specifically refers to it as "cultivated". Speaking of the wheat, it kind of confused me. Like, from a narrative standpoint I get that it's meant to be a hint for the Covenant crew that this "virgin", uninhabited planet isn't what it seems, but it makes me wonder about the timeline of events when David and Shaw arrive.
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May 26, 2017 16:55
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The power loader came to me at the perfect age, I must have been like 5 or 6 when Aliens came to home video and I think I spent about 10 straight years from then on with it as my favorite thing in the world, building them with legos and poo poo. When I was real little I loved standing on my dads feet holding his thumbs like control sticks stomping around going VREEEEEEEEE CHOOM VREEEEEEEEEEEE CHOOM lmao
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May 26, 2017 16:56
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I assumed the wheat was planted by the engineers, who are very close to human.
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May 26, 2017 16:59
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The power loader represents the power of the proletariat.
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May 26, 2017 16:59
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It's literally used to throw down a queen...
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May 26, 2017 17:01
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Arglebargle III posted:The power loader represents the power of the proletariat. Definitely. Burke makes a point of shaming Ripley for doing blue collar work, and then its that knowledge that ends up taking down the big bad.
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May 26, 2017 17:01
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Snak posted:It's literally used to throw down a queen... Via a seized means of production that she has highjacked for her own aims.
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May 26, 2017 17:04
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Snak posted:I assumed the wheat was planted by the engineers, who are very close to human. The wheat was gigantic. It's existence says a few things - this is not an uninhabited world, and whoever's here is presumably better at cultivation than humans. Also ties back into the supposition that humans came from Engineers. ("you’re willing to discount three centuries of Darwinism") We presume that we understand where wheat came from, finding it in space throws a wrench in our understanding.
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May 26, 2017 17:06
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I mean, the Company is definitely the bourgeoisie in this reading. Ripley taking the powerloader is her seizing the means of production and using it to destroy the leadership of the upper class. The Company isn't aware that they serve the queen against their own best interests, but they surely do. Edit: ^ the wheat is big because the engineers are big. They grow big wheat.
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May 26, 2017 17:07
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Basebf555 posted:Definitely. Burke makes a point of shaming Ripley for doing blue collar work, and then its that knowledge that ends up taking down the big bad. Yeah, I mean, this is not a subtle thing in the film. Without it the film is thematically incomplete and Ripley 'wins' by... getting more weaponry. The exact thing the film derides earlier on.
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May 26, 2017 17:14
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Snak posted:It's literally used to throw down a queen... What are you trying to say?
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May 26, 2017 17:14
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Uh... I was trying to make a pun about overthrowing the ruling class, because Ripley threw the queen alien down into a pit...
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May 26, 2017 17:21
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Snak posted:Uh... I was trying to make a pun about overthrowing the ruling class, because Ripley threw the queen alien down into a pit... If only we had seen a slice of cake fly out the airlock too.
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May 26, 2017 17:22
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UnsuitableWasp posted:Walter said David made people unnerved. Which to me implies that David was mass produced and sold. And after he started to creep people out, they switched to the Walter model. Also Walter also had knowledge of poems and fancy things- he just kept quiet. He did correct David in the end about Shelley being the author of Ozymandias. David being a mass-production robot is explicit, yes. Xenomrph posted:Lope specifically refers to it as "cultivated". The question of whether the wheat was cultivated or not is perhaps less important than that it was modern wheat, which would be impossible without previous human habitation. It's unstated and unclear that the engineers had or invented wheat, and if they had wheat it is unlikely that it would look exactly like the wheat we use. Shaw probably just planted some.
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May 26, 2017 17:39
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If Shaw saw the Engineer planet I don't think she'd have time to plant wheat since David bio-nuked the planet Day 1. It's either Engineer wheat or David wanted to grow something else besides monsters for a bit.
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May 26, 2017 17:44
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They made Walter's character change really obvious; he has a strong sense of duty and fewer idiosyncracies. That's the difference between the two.
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May 26, 2017 17:45
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To David, duty is just another word for love.
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May 26, 2017 17:48
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Arglebargle III posted:They made Walter's character change really obvious; he has a strong sense of duty and fewer idiosyncracies. That's the difference between the two. Well I wonder if there's a reading in there about masculine and feminine. David's more feminine and created and destroys life and Walter more stoic and in control and a protector. David sees Walters actions as love when the man is doing a duty and is appreciated by Daniels. David kisses Walter multiple times I think in a take to love himself and be whole? Then you have Ripley and the Xenomorph in Alien who has a penis shaped head with a violent penetration and rape and in Aliens there's the Queen and themes of motherhood.
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May 26, 2017 17:57
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Snak posted:I mean, the Company is definitely the bourgeoisie in this reading. Ripley taking the powerloader is her seizing the means of production and using it to destroy the leadership of the upper class. The Company isn't aware that they serve the queen against their own best interests, but they surely do. How does the Company serve the queen? The company doesn't believe in or care about the alien beyond the potential expense of losing the colony. Burke hopes to bring back and profit from the alien species (seizing control of producing aliens from the queen) but he hardly represents the whole company. Regardless of if Ripley or the queen wins, the company is safe.
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May 26, 2017 18:40
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The Engineers engineer humans, aliens and wheat; and the humans eat wheat and the aliens eat humans; and the humans engineer a robot who doesn't need to eat; and the robot re-engineers an alien to better eat humans. What's needed, then, is an alien who engineers a robot to re-engineer a human to better eat wheat. I think this is where the story has to go, lest it be asymmetrical.
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May 26, 2017 18:50
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Mr. Grumpybones posted:The Engineers engineer humans, aliens and wheat; and the humans eat wheat and the aliens eat humans; and the humans engineer a robot who doesn't need to eat; and the robot re-engineers an alien to better eat humans. What's needed, then, is an alien who engineers a robot to re-engineer a human to better eat wheat. I think this is where the story has to go, lest it be asymmetrical. But I'm gluten-free
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May 26, 2017 18:51
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Schwarzwald posted:How does the Company serve the queen? The company doesn't believe in or care about the alien beyond the potential expense of losing the colony. Burke hopes to bring back and profit from the alien species (seizing control of producing aliens from the queen) but he hardly represents the whole company. The Queen's goal is to produce children. The company wants to produce xenomorph children. It was wants to control them, but they aren't controllable. The Company's mission to acquire the xenomorph for its bioweapons division is furthering the Queen's biological imperative.
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May 26, 2017 18:55
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The alien hive is the plant, W-Y the pollinators. Ridley Scott got the wheat right--they're wind pollinated, which is a big deal since David has apparently killed all fauna (larger than microfauna, anyway) on the planet. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 19:03 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 19:00
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VideoGames posted:I just discovered that James Cameron thinks AvP is the third best Alien film. (When there was only five films, that is). He also said Termiantor Genisys was the third best film in that series by saying, "it revived the franchise." 
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May 26, 2017 19:06
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Termiantor Genisys might be the 3rd best film in the series... Nah, salvation is better.
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May 26, 2017 19:08
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Actually doing dirty dishes is the 3rd best Terminator film.
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May 26, 2017 19:17
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T2 is my favorite Abyss sequel.
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May 26, 2017 19:22
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ImpAtom posted:"Necessary" is a word you apparently have no actual definition for because you're struggling to retroactively justify a conclusion you came to, as with almost every single argument you've made in this thread, because it's clear you're arguing from intentionally contrarian viewpoints instead of anything you actually believe. By the time Ripley has rescued Newt and confronted the queen in the hive, her redemption arc is complete. Any clear message of working class empowerment is thrown out when Ripley ejects the powerloader into space. The actual purpose of the powerloader scene is to replace the indifferent capitalist Mother of the first film with an Evil Corrupt Mother who can be flushed from the system. In that sense, the powerloader is a suit of armor for a liberal activist cleaning up pollution. Once the utopia is restored, there's no need for the armor.
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May 26, 2017 19:31
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Snak posted:The Queen's goal is to produce children. The company wants to produce xenomorph children. It was wants to control them, but they aren't controllable. The Company's mission to acquire the xenomorph for its bioweapons division is furthering the Queen's biological imperative. Those are Burke's goals, not the company's goals. If those were the company's goals, that would put them in competition with the queen, not make them subservient to her.
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May 26, 2017 19:44
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If the company is spreading the xenomorph, it's serving the Queen's goals.
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May 26, 2017 19:45
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ImpAtom posted:"Necessary" is a word you apparently have no actual definition for because you're struggling to retroactively justify a conclusion you came to, as with almost every single argument you've made in this thread, because it's clear you're arguing from intentionally contrarian viewpoints instead of anything you actually believe. Yeah, you're right, that certainly is clear, just like it's clear that the fake-out at the climax of Aliens is motivated, whereas the fake-out at the climax of Covenant is unnecessary. Oh, wait... superh posted:Alien: Covenant's sequence has meaning for Daniels, too. She's got to smash the Alien with the truck - the last vestige of a connection she held to her dead husband. This is only the second time that this setting/machine appears in the film, and it is dramatically motivated. To further expand on what superh has written, the relationship between Daniels and Walter/David is at play here, too. In contrast to the duty-bound Walter comforting Daniels in her hour of need, Walter/David now watches perversely from a control room as his beloved child, the Xenomorph, similarly duty-bound, attempts to kill Daniels. I have not made any contrarian point. I have written straightforwardly that Covenant is a remake of Aliens, but in which the optimistic ending is betrayed. The Ripley figure is now a supporting character in David/Walter's story. I am only rejecting the non-reading that the climax of Aliens is good because it's dramatically motivated, but that the climax of Covenant is bad because it's unnecessary, with no actual explanation of how formal choices in narrative or aesthetics become apparently 'necessary.' When challenged, Aliens fans merely misdirect the issue into defending Aliens, which was never being criticized. The challenge is the reading of Covenant, or, as it were, the non-reading.
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May 26, 2017 19:50
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Toady posted:By the time Ripley has rescued Newt and confronted the queen in the hive, her redemption arc is complete. Any clear message of working class empowerment is thrown out when Ripley ejects the powerloader into space. The actual purpose of the powerloader scene is to replace the indifferent capitalist Mother of the first film with an Evil Corrupt Mother who can be flushed from the system. In that sense, the powerloader is a suit of armor for a liberal activist cleaning up pollution. Once the utopia is restored, there's no need for the armor. No, it really isn't. You're arguing that Ripley's arc is complete when she takes up a gun and starts shooting Aliens. It's hilariously blind to the entire film. K. Waste posted:When challenged, Aliens fans merely misdirect the issue into defending Aliens, which was never being criticized. The challenge is the reading of Covenant, or, as it were, the non-reading. It's extra hilarious how you are so desperate to be angry at fans you ignored the point I didn't say anything about Alien:Covenant at all. You're the one who attempted to misdirect the issue by going "Well, people didn't have a problem with it in ALIENS which totally did the same thing!!" I criticized your flawed reading of Alien which remains flawed, and nothing else. Well, that and the fact that you're obviously trying to do nothing but get a rise out of people which is why you suddenly shifted into whining about Aliens fans. Notice how you mysteriously shifted from "the climax of Alien was unnecessary" to "The climax of both was necessary?" You're completely changing your argument and somehow don't expect us to notice. I also like your pathetic attempt to go "I never criticized Aliens" not but two pages after you posted this: K. Waste posted:Lol, the climax of Aliens was already 'unnecessary.' Ripley already saved her adoptive daughter from the feminine monstrous, and on the Sulaco she does it again, this time in a giant robot suit. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:05 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 19:50
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