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BrianWilly posted:No it's not, it's a valid criticism. The fact that killing off minority characters is problematic has fuckall to do with what kind of threats they're facing and more to do with how disproportionately more often and readily it happens. There's a reason "The black guy dies first" became an actual meme before anyone even knew what memes were. Except their literary functions were totally different. Goliath being killed was Mark Millar being Mark Millar as hell and going "oh poo poo here's how crazy high the stakes are", because that's his whole shtick of revealing how monstrous the characters in a given story are by having them kill/rape/whatever somebody else. The goal of Rhodey dying in CWII 1 was Bendis clearly giving Tony a reason to go off the deep end and react emotionally and illogically. Like people are going "The things he's doing don't make sense and aren't logical" when yeah, that's the point, his best friend died. Is it a bad look? Maybe, but then again it's been a loving decade since CWI and the landscape for minority representation in comics has changed, including the fact that the Captain America and Spider-Man on the loving Avengers are black. That's not to say that there isn't room to grow but to pretend that ten years of comics and increased minority representation haven't happened in between 2006 and 2016 is loving foolish. This was a death - as opposed to Goliath, which was an overt killing - meant to accomplish a function - get Tony Stark to a place where he's crossed his own personal Rubicon. To that end, who in the Marvel pantheon as it currently stands would you say fits that role? Because, it's pretty much only War Machine. Tony Stark doesn't have a relationship with Peter Parker any more, everyone on the Avengers is pretty new and most of them he considers work buddies at best, Pepper isn't around, MJ is too recent. So who's left? It's War Machine. It's not 2006, the landscape has totally changed, and the literary function of both supeheroes deaths in CWI and CWII are totally different. Goliath was killed because Millar had to show how real the stakes were. War Machine died - not was killed, died - because Bendis needed a reason for Iron Man to be firmly in opposition to Captain Marvel. And guess what, his death was totally earned in-fiction, unless you're gonna seriously argue that "being killed by Thanos" is somehow unbelievable.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:39
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X-O posted:I think people are vastly overestimating how many people give a poo poo about Rhodey. Also the fact they've already introduced his successor. Plus the comic that killed him came out what a month or so ago and leaked weeks before that? Nobody cared then. I'm sure this it's going to grab more "real news" headlines then comic news headlines. His roles in the movies makes Rhodes more popular out of comics then in.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:41
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SirDan3k posted:Oh Rhodey probably the most currently well know black hero got fridged, and fridged hard, to set up the motivations of the two whitest leads in marvel that aren't off recreating the multiverse. When the poo poo splashes back onto Marvel they are going to be utterly surprised. You're kidding, right? Because I'm pretty sure Captain America and Spider-Man are more well known heroes than "Iron Man's best friend".
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Jun 2, 2016 05:43
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SirDan3k posted:I'm sure this it's going to grab more "real news" headlines then comic news headlines. His roles in the movies makes Rhodes more popular out of comics then in. If it was going to grab real news headlines Marvel would have pushed buzz on it a few days before it came out like they always do. They didn't.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:44
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Toxxupation posted:You're kidding, right? Because I'm pretty sure Captain America and Spider-Man are more well known heroes than "Iron Man's best friend". Rhodes has been in what, 5 MCU films now? And to the vast majority of the population Spider-man is white and Sam Wilson is the Falcon.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:44
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SirDan3k posted:I'm sure this it's going to grab more "real news" headlines then comic news headlines. His roles in the movies makes Rhodes more popular out of comics then in. Captain America Hydra grabbed "real news" headlines. I guaran-loving-tee you absolutely nobody outside of comic news, and not even then will give the slightest gently caress about Rhodey being dead. You are vastly, vastly overstating how important War Machine is.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:46
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SynthOrange posted:now we'll never see creepy rape baby again Creepy rape baby lives on in all our hearts.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:46
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Rhyno posted:Rhodes has been in what, 5 MCU films now? And to the vast majority of the population Spider-man is white and Sam Wilson is the Falcon. Again, he's been dead for almost a month already. The Captain America Hydra thing got traction because it had a neat panel to point to where Steve Rogers intones "Hail Hydra". Nobody will care about Rhodey being dead in the mainstream media. And again, I dunno how this is even relevant. The MCU is not the 616. The most well-known black hero in the 616 is certainly Spider-Man (Miles Morales) with Captain America (Sam Wilson) right behind. The MCU existing isn't relevant at all.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:48
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Toxxupation posted:Captain America Hydra grabbed "real news" headlines. I guaran-loving-tee you absolutely nobody outside of comic news, and not even then will give the slightest gently caress about Rhodey being dead. You are vastly, vastly overstating how important War Machine is. Important? No, but people on the street can name him and that's all that really matters.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:48
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It was kinda weird that he didn't die in the movie. That really felt like a death scene and then he was like "Ow that hurt, I'm totally alive but still treat this moment as if I wasn't."
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Jun 2, 2016 05:50
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Toxxupation posted:And again, I dunno how this is even relevant. The MCU is not the 616. The most well-known black hero in the 616 is certainly Spider-Man (Miles Morales) with Captain America (Sam Wilson) right behind. The MCU existing isn't relevant at all. You did not specify that were were discussing perception in the Marvel Universe!
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Jun 2, 2016 05:52
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SirDan3k posted:Important? No, but people on the street can name him and that's all that really matters. The MCU is not the MU. And arguing that Marvel Comics should be taking its cues from its film division is a silly assertion at best and actively hypocritical at worst considering how often people complain up and down about the "Inhumans being pushed" in the 616. Even though they're not really.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:52
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I'd bet most people on the street could not name him. In fact I'd guess that whenever Riri becomes the next War Machine or Iron Patriot, or whatever, that'll make more headlines than Rhodey's death.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:53
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Starsnostars posted:Civil War II is going to end with the reveal that the whole event was one of Ulysses' predictions and he'll do something so that it never actually happens. I completely see this happening with the ending being Ulysses blowing his own brains out with a suicide note talking about "too much power for one person" or somesuch. Do it, Bendis. Dooo iiiiit.
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Jun 2, 2016 05:56
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Toxxupation posted:Except their literary functions were totally different. Goliath being killed was Mark Millar being Mark Millar as hell and going "oh poo poo here's how crazy high the stakes are", because that's his whole shtick of revealing how monstrous the characters in a given story are by having them kill/rape/whatever somebody else. The goal of Rhodey dying in CWII 1 was Bendis clearly giving Tony a reason to go off the deep end and react emotionally and illogically. Like people are going "The things he's doing don't make sense and aren't logical" when yeah, that's the point, his best friend died. And I truly don't know what you're saying with this "not was killed, died" thing. Rhodey was killed. You literally say it yourself, one sentence later. What are you even talking about?
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Jun 2, 2016 06:05
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Rhyno posted:You did not specify that were were discussing perception in the Marvel Universe! Wouldn't that one be Luke Cage?
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Jun 2, 2016 06:14
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X-O posted:I'd bet most people on the street could not name him. In fact I'd guess that whenever Riri becomes the next War Machine or Iron Patriot, or whatever, that'll make more headlines than Rhodey's death. Yea I love Warmachine but he's absolutely not an 'icon' even if you're a huge MCU fan. He's cool, I'm bummed they killed him for a cheap 'now tony's angry' moment, but this super isn't a great iconic hero being crushed.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:17
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SilverSupernova posted:Wouldn't that one be Luke Cage? In the MU? Possibly since his time as an Avenger but he did spend a large chunk of that as a fugitive.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:21
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The most well known black hero in or out of universe is Black Panther. How did none of you say that? Or Storm if you're counting X-Men.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:24
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BrianWilly posted:I'm sorry, who cares about literary function? Rhodey's death could be the most well-written profound masterpiece of literature (it wasn't) and it would still be problematic as it furthers a harmful trend that's been going on for decades and certainly hasn't stopped yet. You can kill off minority characters in the most narratively ingenious ways that "best serves your story" but if minority characters just so happen to have to keep dying to "best serve your story" then maybe we should seriously reconsider what actually serves your story and why the story of Civil War II just so happens to need Rhodey to die to make everyone sad. The story of Civil War II, which necessitated Rhodey's death, didn't spring forth from nothingness; Bendis crafted it, and thereby crafted the narrative context that would be "best served" by these events. So your argument is that black superheroes can't die under any circumstance in comics, no matter if it's justified in-narrative (because, according to you, literary function and context doesn't matter)? Okay, cool.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:31
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X-O posted:The most well known black hero in or out of universe is Black Panther. How did none of you say that? Or Storm if you're counting X-Men. I'd wager that in 1994-98 that Bishop was more well known out of universe.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:32
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Know one knows or cares about Black Panther tho.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:34
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Rhyno posted:You did not specify that were were discussing perception in the Marvel Universe! I meant to comics fans, the people reading CWII and the only people who'll give a poo poo that 616-Rhodey is dead. The relevance of the MCU shouldn't determine the direction of stories or whether certain characters should be considered safe or not, and I fail to see how Rhodey being important in the MCU right now is at all relevant to a different canon in a different medium.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:35
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Rhyno posted:I'd wager that in 1994-98 that Bishop was more well known out of universe. How did anyone ever let that poo poo happen?
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Jun 2, 2016 06:37
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CharlestheHammer posted:Know one knows or cares about Black Panther tho. Nah. Honestly a pretty easy case could be made for BP being the most famous black hero in the MCU and at Marvel comics right now, with Chadwick Boseman's performance (as small as it was) getting praised up and down in the mainstream media and TNC's run on BP being the bestselling comic of the year so far. Dude sold something like 300k print comics on 1, which is pretty loving insane.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:39
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X-O posted:How did anyone ever let that poo poo happen? mid/late 90's were a rough time man
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Jun 2, 2016 06:39
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X-O posted:How did anyone ever let that poo poo happen? Come on man, Bishop was COOL. A better question is how did we as comic fans let such an amazing character fall from grace. This is our failure.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:42
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Can we turn the topic away from whether or not Rhodey's race is an issue when he dies? I'm sure the book has plenty of other glaring flaws we can focus on. Or we can talk about the green skin minority also dying.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:42
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Rhyno posted:Come on man, Bishop was COOL. A better question is how did we as comic fans let such an amazing character fall from grace. This is our failure. Nope.
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Jun 2, 2016 06:43
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SilverSupernova posted:Can we turn the topic away from whether or not Rhodey's race is an issue when he dies? I'm sure the book has plenty of other glaring flaws we can focus on. Or we can talk about the green skin minority also dying. She-Hulk was a total fakeout, if they kill the only good Hulk I'll be mad at Marvel for real 
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Jun 2, 2016 06:50
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Toxxupation posted:So your argument is that black superheroes can't die under any circumstance in comics, no matter if it's justified in-narrative (because, according to you, literary function and context doesn't matter)? Okay, cool. It's old. It's tired. Come up with a new excuse. Somehow find a way, in that ingenious creative brain of yours, to make it so that these kinds of heroes -- who already serve too often as supporting cast for your whiter, maler heroes -- aren't the first to go in order to "serve the story."
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Jun 2, 2016 06:51
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remember that article that announced the event? it was originally going to be spider-man! I guess they realized that killing off a dude iron man barely cares about and a dude carol dated exactly once was not a compelling reason for them to come to blows
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Jun 2, 2016 07:00
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Tatum Girlparts posted:She-Hulk was a total fakeout, if they kill the only good Hulk I'll be mad at Marvel for real Amadeus is a totally awesome Hulk.
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Jun 2, 2016 07:04
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BrianWilly posted:It's old. It's tired. Come up with a new excuse. Somehow find a way, in that ingenious creative brain of yours, to make it so that these kinds of heroes -- who already serve too often as supporting cast for your whiter, maler heroes -- aren't the first to go in order to "serve the story." A white And Carol is not a man. If your going to use that ingenious creative brain of yours to reduce characters to gender and race at least get it right.
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Jun 2, 2016 07:06
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Heathen posted:A white I feel like flatlines have been used way too much in media for death fakeouts for anyone to believe that's actually a death until the next issue is out. They might as well have had them fall of a cliff without showing their body.
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Jun 2, 2016 07:15
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Viridiant posted:I feel like flatlines have been used way too much in media for death fakeouts for anyone to believe that's actually a death until the next issue is out. Maybe the loving leads just fell off and she's fine.
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Jun 2, 2016 07:16
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it's worth pointing out Brevoort's interview at newsarama had him saying "yes he's totally dead for this story" to Rhodey's death and "ehhhhh" to She-Hulk's
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Jun 2, 2016 07:25
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He totally should have died in the movie. The stakes were so low.
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Jun 2, 2016 07:29
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Teenage Fansub posted:He totally should have died in the movie. The stakes were so low. You mean you weren't totally invested in the Bucky/Cap drama?!?!?
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Jun 2, 2016 07:46
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She-Hulk is a supporting character in 2 other ongoings, loving lol at anybody who thinks that flatline is anything but a fakeout.ElNarez posted:It's not even that. Rhodey was just here because he was visiting Carol, then Thanos happened and he thought he'd go and help. He died stopping Thanos, which is a thing you probably know could happen if you put on a costume and call yourself War Machine. There is absolutely no way you can argue Carol is wrong. But Thanos didn't just "happen". They planned a mission to stop Thanos' vague cosmic cube plans because they knew when and where he would be because of their future telling boy! That's what the event is about! Which implies that there was some forethought into who would be going on Operation Stop Thanos. Sure Rhodey was there and volunteered himself, but during the strategy session when Carol was calling in the Ultimates and A-Force she could've dropped a line to the other 50 superheroes she knows.
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Jun 2, 2016 07:58
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