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Perestroika posted:For another solid contender (though not Hollywood-made) there is My Honor was Loyalty. In which the director takes it upon himself to try and rehabilitate the loving Waffen-SS, of all things. You know you're in for a treat when the first thing you see in the trailer is "This trailer is not propaganda": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM God what a poo poo movie. I got drunk one night and watched it with on old grad school buddy of mine. We were going to turn it off after 20 minutes when it became apparent that it was just poo poo (seriously, effects are garbage and the acting is sub SyFy original caliber) but ended up seeing the whole thing out of morbid curiosity. Tekopo posted:Hahaha holy poo poo. Stalingrad's good. It got some drama in the German press (which if you know the German press and WW2 poo poo isn't surprising) but Generation War is also really solid. I could sit around hand have a historian chin-stroking argument about this or that and how this thing is problematic and that thing should have been emphasized more, but at the end of the day it' 1) entertaining and 2) does a good job of showing just how hosed people born in the 20s in Germany were. The title is really unfortunate - the original German title translates to "Our Mothers, Our Fathers" which is a MUCH better title than loving Generation War.
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Jul 9, 2017 16:02
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I'd reserve judgement on MHWL. Saying "They weren't all the same" gives me the impression this will have a soldier who gets disillusioned by Nazism, or a German who signed up for altruistic reasons. Saying each and every single soldier, even in the SS, was evil seems a tad unreasonable to me. Also, has anyone seen the interview with some German veterans? They were completely unapologetic for fighting the Russians, saying they were holding back the tide of Bolshevism and that they didn't want to fight the Allies. They strike me as more ideologically engaged in WW2 than Allied Soldiers.
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Jul 9, 2017 16:41
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Hazzard posted:Also, has anyone seen the interview with some German veterans? They were completely unapologetic for fighting the Russians, saying they were holding back the tide of Bolshevism and that they didn't want to fight the Allies. They strike me as more ideologically engaged in WW2 than Allied Soldiers. You mean unlike those cowardly allies who didn't want to end either under German boot heels figuratively or literally?
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Jul 9, 2017 17:06
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Hazzard posted:I'd reserve judgement on MHWL. Saying "They weren't all the same" gives me the impression this will have a soldier who gets disillusioned by Nazism, or a German who signed up for altruistic reasons. Saying each and every single soldier, even in the SS, was evil seems a tad unreasonable to me. I've seen the movie. It's on Netflix. It's poo poo. From a movie making perspective the script is garbage, the acting is worse than 90s era Sci Fi originals, and the special effects are laughably poo poo. The fact that every single person in the Waffen SS was apparently a noble patriot fighting for his country and they make zero reference to the politics behind it is just the icing on the cake. edit: Again, if you want to see a well done movie on WW2 from the German perspective watch "Generation War." It's also on Netflix. The acting is good, the script is good, and it does a good job of giving a feel for what it would have been like to have been born into that generation in Germany. I could nitpick parts of it all day, but in the end it's pretty solid. And yes German soldiers were very politically engaged. They were fed a lot of propaganda about fighting the communist menace and the Nazis were stridently anti-communist going back to the beer hall putsch days. Once you get to about 1941 you have people entering the military who were around 10 in 1933 and had their formative years filled with Hitler Youth, Nazified schools, etc. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 17:06
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Cyrano4747 posted:I've seen the movie. It's on Netflix. It's poo poo. Double posting but I can't emphasize this enough, politics and history aside the movie is loving terrible as a film. Not insulting, not offensive, just poorly made garbage.
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Jul 9, 2017 18:05
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Tekopo posted:the worst war movie ever was Rules of Engagement, that wonderful movie where the twist ending is that shooting into a mixed crowd of armed/unarmed civilians was moral and good holy poo poo that movie was written by Jim Webb?
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Jul 9, 2017 18:26
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You could make a cool miniseries about Weimar. Have communists, nazis, conservative/monarchist characters, workers, fat cats, intellectuals, students, veterans, show how they all live and think, bang em together and watch the sparks fly. Throw in all the wacky stuff like Nudism, Georgekreis, Artamanen etc. Set it in Munich maybe? They had Monarchists, Nazis, the short-lived Räterepublik. End the whole thing on January 30, 1933 with one cool young character being beaten to death in a basement and another one moving into his huge new government office eager for the big things to come. Hanfstaengl should be in it, that tremendous oval office.
aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 18:39
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Hazzard posted:Also, has anyone seen the interview with some German veterans? They were completely unapologetic for fighting the Russians, saying they were holding back the tide of Bolshevism and that they didn't want to fight the Allies. They strike me as more ideologically engaged in WW2 than Allied Soldiers. Friendly reminder that 'Allied soldiers' includes the Soviets.
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Jul 9, 2017 19:35
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feedmegin posted:Friendly reminder that 'Allied soldiers' includes the Soviets.
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Jul 9, 2017 19:42
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PzI Ausf. C Queue: PzI Ausf. F, Panzerjager I and other PzI SPGs, Renault FT, Maus in the USSR, SG-122, 76 mm gun mod of the Matilda, Chaffee trials in the USSR, M4A2(76)W, PzII Ausf. a though b, PzII Ausf. c through C, PzII Ausf. D through E, PzII Ausf. F, PzII trials in the USSR, Marder II, Field modifications to American tanks, Israeli improvised armoured cars, Trials of the TKS and C2P in the USSR, Polish 37 mm anti-tank gun, T-37 with ShKAS, Wartime modifications of the T-37 and T-38, Tank destroyers on the T-30 and T-40 chassis, 45 mm M-42 gun, SU-76 prototype, ZIK-7 and other light SPG designs, SU-26/T-26-6, SU-122 precursors, SU-122 competitors, Light Tank M5, Tankbuchse 41, s.FH. 18, PzVII Lowe, Tiger #114, Chrysler K, A1E1 Independent, Swedish tanks 1928–1934, Strv 81 and Strv 101, Pak 97/38, 7.5 cm Pak 41, Czechoslovakian post-war prototypes, Praga AH-IV, KV-1S, KV-13, Available for request:  SU-122 T-60 tanks produced at factory #37 NEW  Bazooka NEW  Matilda  L-10 and L-30 Strv m/40 Strv m/42 Landsverk prototypes 1943-1951 Strv m/21 Strv m/41  SOMUA S 35  D.W. and VK 30.01(H) Wespe and other PzII SPGs NEW
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Jul 9, 2017 20:29
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feedmegin posted:Friendly reminder that 'Allied soldiers' includes the Soviets. Tell that to Patton. Or to this guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_teZVnSZGc (It's a song about how important it is to remember that part of Czechoslovakia was liberated by Patton's army, and that we should celebrate him and his GIs instead of Red Army soldiers as an act of defiance against the Soviets) steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jul 9, 2017 |
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Jul 9, 2017 20:49
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The nazis had a funny way of not wanting to fight the allies by invading them.
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Jul 9, 2017 21:09
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spectralent posted:The nazis had a funny way of not wanting to fight the allies by invading them. After they declared war on Germany. One big 'what-if' is if the Western Allies had stood by Czechoslovakia in 1938. Another is what if there had been no guarantee to Poland and Hitler were given free reign in the East. What does Hitler do next?
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Jul 9, 2017 23:16
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Prob slam his dick into a door, as Stalin wouldn't have signed any non-aggression agreement and would have maintained readiness at all times.
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Jul 9, 2017 23:32
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Alchenar posted:After they declared war on Germany. Because Germany invaded Poland, yes. That's a funny thing to do assuming you don't actually want to fight the allies.
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Jul 10, 2017 00:29
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Yeah that's really common in axis apologia, alongside "FDR let Pearl Harbor happen because he wanted war!" Technically true, but what is the alternative? Let the fascists rough roughshod over one nation at a time until they turn their gunsights onto you? Meekly submit to a fascist coup? Happily finance the japanese war machine? Something had to give.
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Jul 10, 2017 01:23
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Yeah that's really common in axis apologia, alongside "FDR let Pearl Harbor happen because he wanted war!" Technically true, but what is the alternative? Let the fascists rough roughshod over one nation at a time until they turn their gunsights onto you? Meekly submit to a fascist coup? Happily finance the japanese war machine? Something had to give. In what way did FDR let Pearl Harbor happen?
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Jul 10, 2017 02:02
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Nebakenezzer posted:In what way did FDR let Pearl Harbor happen? Ok that one is not technically true, but the idea from some is that the government knew an attack was coming but the perfidious yankee let brave sailors die for his japanese war.
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Jul 10, 2017 02:11
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I've finished most of Shattered Sword after seeing it recommended in this thread, just got some appendices to go through, but boy what a fantastic book. Gotta up my reading game after this on other subjects because it blew alot of holes in things I thought I knew and understood about the battle and shed a bunch of light on things I didn't know at all.
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Jul 10, 2017 02:17
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Ok that one is not technically true, but the idea from some is that the government knew an attack was coming but the perfidious yankee let brave sailors die for his japanese war. Never blame maliciousness when incompetence will do! In truth, the Americans did know the Japanese were planning a strike, but the Admiral in command of the Pacific fleet at the time never believed that strike was going to be against Pearl Harbor, so it wasn't prepared.
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Jul 10, 2017 03:06
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Alchenar posted:One big 'what-if' is if the Western Allies had stood by Czechoslovakia in 1938. By all accounts the German General Staff planned to shoot Hitler in the head and sort out the rest from there.
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Jul 10, 2017 03:22
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Tekopo posted:the worst war movie ever was Rules of Engagement, that wonderful movie where the twist ending is that shooting into a mixed crowd of armed/unarmed civilians was moral and good Uh this movie actually rules because you get to see Sam Jackson and Tommy Lee Jones have an old-man fist fight.
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Jul 10, 2017 03:24
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Radical 90s Wizard posted:Uh this movie actually rules because you get to see Sam Jackson and Tommy Lee Jones have an old-man fist fight. Psh I've played MGS4
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Jul 10, 2017 04:06
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Nebakenezzer posted:Never blame maliciousness when incompetence will do! Extremely dangerous principle to go by. I've seen waaaay too much malice doing its best to be perceived as mere incompetence, especially in politics. That having been said, yeah, the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theories are kinda hilarious.
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Jul 10, 2017 04:28
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my dad posted:Extremely dangerous principle to go by. I've seen waaaay too much malice doing its best to be perceived as mere incompetence, especially in politics. The most ridiculous thing is that, even if you take the alleged motive for the theories as gospel, allowing the attack would still be pointless for two very obvious reasons - First, even if the attack was repelled and the Kido Butai was wiped out without the loss of a single American life, getting a war declaration from it would be trivial (meaning that FDR would not benefit from allowing the attack to succeed), and second that Germany was under no obligation whatsoever to join the Empire of Japan in an offensive war (meaning that even allowing the attack to go forward would be pointless, as it wouldn't guarantee the war FDR wanted). Depressingly, there are at least some people being taught this crap in school.
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Jul 10, 2017 04:38
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Nebakenezzer posted:Never blame maliciousness when incompetence will do! It wasn't even just Kimmel, loving nobody thought a strike on Pearl was even possible at the time. The harbor was too shallow for torpedoes, and Oahu was too far away from Japanese terroritory for their carriers to even come close enough to launch a strike. Everyone knew that when the attack happened, it was going to be against the Philippines. Except then the Japanese developed torps that were able to work in the shallow waters of Pearl, as well as new techniques for at-sea refueling while underway, and welp suddenly Pearl wasn't so invulnerable anymore.
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Jul 10, 2017 05:00
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That and the Japanese were still negotiating in Washington DC up to the day of the attack.
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Jul 10, 2017 05:04
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And Japanese aircraft had great longevity, which is why there was a fear of Zeros and G4M. Just because you weren't particularly close to an airfield didn't mean they couldn't reach you.
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Jul 10, 2017 05:58
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tbf I still don't understand why the US invaded Iraq
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Jul 10, 2017 06:21
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Mantis42 posted:That and the Japanese were still negotiating in Washington DC up to the day of the attack. And the Japanese Empire literally declared war on the United States of America. And printed statements of their declaration of war in all its major newspapers. And Nazi Germany declared war as well. What was the US supposed to do anyway? Not do anything? Immediately sue for peace?
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Jul 10, 2017 06:58
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Phobophilia posted:And the Japanese Empire literally declared war on the United States of America. And printed statements of their declaration of war in all its major newspapers. And Nazi Germany declared war as well. What was the US supposed to do anyway? Not do anything? Immediately sue for peace? Instead they went to war with the people who declared war on them, like a bunch of kill-crazy warmongers what a bunch of jerks
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Jul 10, 2017 07:40
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It wasn't even just Kimmel, loving nobody thought a strike on Pearl was even possible at the time. It's kinda hazy so sorry for not having the name, but I remember at least one dude writing an entire book about the impending threat of carrier attacks close to the mainland, and getting roundly ignored because it didn't really seem realistic to others at the time? Slim Jim Pickens posted:tbf I still don't understand why the US invaded Iraq NOE, but as I understand it republican old timers had had a plan to invade the place for at least ten years before the invasion. Claims of WMD and oil interests were just icing on the murdercake, at that point.
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Jul 10, 2017 08:32
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Tias posted:It's kinda hazy so sorry for not having the name, but I remember at least one dude writing an entire book about the impending threat of carrier attacks close to the mainland, and getting roundly ignored because it didn't really seem realistic to others at the time? Close, Billy Mitchell wrote a big-rear end report in the mid 1920-s about war with Japan being inevitable in the long run, and warned against the danger of an air attack on Pearl Harbor, but he didn't think it would be carrier based.
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Jul 10, 2017 08:38
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That's it, thanks!
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Jul 10, 2017 08:38
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:tbf I still don't understand why the US invaded Iraq Read Fiasco by Thomas Ricks, great book.
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Jul 10, 2017 10:21
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:tbf I still don't understand why the US invaded Iraq Hubris/finishing off daddy's unfinished business/intelligence organisations as echo chamber
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Jul 10, 2017 10:31
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Yeah that's really common in axis apologia, alongside "FDR let Pearl Harbor happen because he wanted war!" Technically true, but what is the alternative? Let the fascists rough roughshod over one nation at a time until they turn their gunsights onto you? Meekly submit to a fascist coup? Happily finance the japanese war machine? Something had to give. Well, more specifically Poland was one of the allies (or immediately became so upon the declaration of war). It's like going "We didn't want to fight you! Just your friend!". Slim Jim Pickens posted:tbf I still don't understand why the US invaded Iraq Neocons.
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Jul 10, 2017 10:34
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:By all accounts the German General Staff planned to shoot Hitler in the head and sort out the rest from there. Well, by the General Staff's own accounts. They would have overthrown that mean old Hitler in a second if only [insert ridiculous self-justification for swearing personal loyalty to Hitler and forcing the Allies to literally blast their way into the Reichschancellery before surrendering here].
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Jul 10, 2017 10:43
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Following up on silly Brits, I can't believe a silly Scot(tish Canadian) managed to get away with only playing the pipes and also not wearing underwear.quote:Millin is best remembered for playing the pipes whilst under fire during the D-Day landing in Normandy. Pipers had traditionally been used in battle by Scottish and Irish soldiers. However, the use of bagpipes was restricted to rear areas by the time of the Second World War by the British Army. Lovat, nevertheless, ignored these orders and ordered Millin, then aged 21, to play. When Private Millin demurred, citing the regulations, he recalled later, Lord Lovat replied: "Ah, but that’s the English War Office. You and I are both Scottish, and that doesn’t apply." He played "Highland Laddie" and "The Road to the Isles" as his comrades fell around him on Sword Beach. Millin states that he later talked to captured German snipers who claimed they did not shoot at him because they thought he had gone mad.
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Jul 10, 2017 11:10
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Fangz posted:Hubris/finishing off daddy's unfinished business/intelligence organisations as echo chamber Don't forget all the
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Jul 10, 2017 11:16
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