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Mooseontheloose posted:The Federation does not boast of its power, it wouldn't be Federation-y. Also: "But suppose you precipitate a full scale war?" "Then, quite frankly, Mister President, we can clean their chronometers." The charts they present for Operation Retrieve named 18 ships. That's one hell of a rescue team or an adequately armed tip of the spear.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:18
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I never thought I'd say this, but I agree that Star Trek should die. What I really want is the idea of a hopeful future. It doesn't have to be a perfect future, but a little hope would be nice.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:24
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cheetah7071 posted:And that's why The Orville exists I do not agree, but then I do not watch that show.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:24
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skasion posted:Let it die. There must be five or six hundred hours of Star Trek at this point, we don’t need to keep going to unlock its true potential. it’s not going to vanish away into nothingness if we don’t constantly spam the world with more of it, except in terms of profit, about which cry me a river. I would much rather watch a new space show that does its own thing and lives or dies by its own merit, than a space show trying vainly to recapture the appeal of shows from the last few decades which were themselves trying to recapture the appeal of yet older shows. 50 years is a great run for any piece of pop culture and something to be proud of, not something that needs to be dragged out until everyone who ever gave a gently caress about it is dead. I generally agree, and I say this as someone who enjoys all three reboot movies. I think "Star Trek" as a label, after how many umpteen zillion hours of content, is more an albatross at this point than anything else. The only thing on television that could really interest me at this point, after the wet fart that is Discovery, is a hard pivot into some other procedural genre. Law & Order: Star Trek or something like that.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:31
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Brawnfire posted:Distrust and paranoid thinking. As for my own desire in a Trek I agree with this The Bloop posted:A new crew doing exploration and facing moral conundrums while incidentally showing us a positive, progressive version of our possible future.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:33
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Counterpoint: Phlox. He's, in many ways, much better than humans. He's chill and doesn't mind you getting busy with his wife. He'll still fix you up. He's funny. He's not Neelix. Why not explore one of humanity's better sides through an alien for a change?
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Jan 31, 2018 21:35
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I'd love something that combined the hard scifi feel of the expanse but combined with trek's hopeful utopianism.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:36
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Sash! posted:The charts they present for Operation Retrieve named 18 ships. That's one hell of a rescue team or an adequately armed tip of the spear. Makes sense. They were basically preparing to have to invade the Klingon Empire hard and fast in order to exfiltrate a pair of POWs. They'd want to be ready to fight their way back out. e: Did they ever release a blu-ray with the extended version of that scene?
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Jan 31, 2018 21:36
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Peachfart posted:I never thought I'd say this, but I agree that Star Trek should die. What I really want is the idea of a hopeful future. It doesn't have to be a perfect future, but a little hope would be nice. I think it died years ago and the spirit of what made it worthwhile lives on in other projects like (most obviously) The Orville but also in shows like The Expanse We've passed the Simpsons Threshold where the thing continues on cultural inertia and people seem to like the idea of the thing more than the actual result
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Jan 31, 2018 21:36
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One data point that contradicts the Federation's status as the biggest and most powerful is that in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline, the Klingons are on the verge of winning the war. On the other hand, that episode posited something insane like twenty years of warfare, so who knows what all might have happened during that time; maybe that's after other powers tried taking advantage and jumping the Federation.Arglebargle III posted:Forget continuity or continuing the story of Star Trek qua itself, what would you want a modern star trek to be about? A series of morality plays and adventure stories where Our Heroes confront problems representing some of the issues we face today, while demonstrating values and norms of a more just society than the one we live in today. Cool arc stories that lead to exciting season cliffhangers optional, but should be something that quietly builds in the background or occasionally rather than dominating the show.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:37
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Baronjutter posted:I'd love something that combined the hard scifi feel of the expanse but combined with trek's hopeful utopianism. And if you haven't seen Sunshine, watch it.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:38
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I still think it's funny that Riker is mad at Jellico for trying to implement a crew rotation with more downtime.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:39
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I really really hated Sunshine.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:39
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Nessus posted:I think they did this with the Cardassians better, but you could have an interesting arc with the guy who is paranoid and always thinks the worst of people being in a (hopefully milder) version of the Worf role. Unfortunately it would probably get written as "paranoia guy was sort of right every time and absolutely right once or twice," which would become "paranoia guy was always right every time, because every son of a bitching piece of nerd-rear end genre media has to be unremittingly bleak and depressing for us to feel like real mature matures." A Romulan character would be interesting if it were almost like watching a person from an abusive home life find himself in a setting with trustworthy, charitable individuals. Having to temper their self-serving defensive instinctive actions and reactions; eventually learning that there is a reason for striving that is in service to others, and in service to a greater good. Oh is that what Michael is supposed to be about in Disco? I can't tell exactly what her arc entails.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:41
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The idea that a monospecies empire could stand up to the combined efforts of what, 150 species always seemed a bit implausible to me
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Jan 31, 2018 21:42
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Also lump me in with "if you're going to make a new space opera show, how about a non-Trek space opera?"Kazinsal posted:e: Did they ever release a blu-ray with the extended version of that scene? Unfortunately no, Paramount doesn't give a poo poo about the older movies. I'm happy we at least got a Bluray of the Wrath of Khan DC.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:43
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Brawnfire posted:A Romulan character would be interesting if it were almost like watching a person from an abusive home life find himself in a setting with trustworthy, charitable individuals. Having to temper their self-serving defensive instinctive actions and reactions; eventually learning that there is a reason for striving that is in service to others, and in service to a greater good. Oh is that what Michael is supposed to be about in Disco? I can't tell exactly what her arc entails. We already had this episode in TNG with Geordi and the romcom
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Jan 31, 2018 21:43
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Cingulate posted:Counterpoint: Phlox. You are going to have to make the case here that letting people get it on with your wife is better than standard human behavior. Alien psychology not including sexual jealousy doesn't make it better or even possible, and certainly doesn't make it human. He is an interesting vehicle to explore those issues, I agree, just not with the contention that he is better because he is some Heinlein-level sex hippy.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:43
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Arglebargle III posted:I still think it's funny that Riker is mad at Jellico for trying to implement a crew rotation with more downtime. huge, huge lols if you think the TNG writers knew how different shift rotations work (hell, I don't really understand it either) That said I still think it's goofy as gently caress to reassign a bunch of engineering staff to security, especially while simultaneously assigning them a major project that demands round-the-clock work. If you need more bodies holding phasers, reassign some blueshirts!
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Jan 31, 2018 21:45
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Arglebargle III posted:I still think it's funny that Riker is mad at Jellico for trying to implement a crew rotation with more downtime. It was more that changing everyone's sleep and work schedule right before a major and dangerous mission was probably not ideal.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:47
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Baronjutter posted:I really really hated Sunshine. Sunshine feels like they got stuck halfway through the script, rolled dice for a plot twist and it landed on “religion bad”
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Jan 31, 2018 21:48
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The Bloop posted:You are going to have to make the case here that letting people get it on with your wife is better than standard human behavior. I didn't intend it to be thus specific though - I was more about the lack of aggression in general, not the complex poly thing. Why not explore people less aggressive, less vengeful, more pleasant, more relaxed than humans? And not in the "uptight buddhist" way Picard is. Why not Heinlein level sex hippy?
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Jan 31, 2018 21:49
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:One data point that contradicts the Federation's status as the biggest and most powerful is that in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline, the Klingons are on the verge of winning the war. On the other hand, that episode posited something insane like twenty years of warfare, so who knows what all might have happened during that time; maybe that's after other powers tried taking advantage and jumping the Federation. If I'm remembering the episode correctly, the E-C jumped 22 years into the future and Picard does say twenty years of war (could have been rounding), so it's not hard to imagine the Klingons going insane about Narendra III, ending the peace talks they were in at the time and then sucker-punching the Federation.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:49
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cheetah7071 posted:The idea that a monospecies empire could stand up to the combined efforts of what, 150 species always seemed a bit implausible to me I think that the idea with the Feds is that there are probably (say) more Klingons than there are humans in absolute terms. There are more and bigger Klingon colony planets. They have a longer space-borne tradition than most of the core Federation species. The Vulcans did not seem greatly expansionistic and I don't think we know a lot more about the Andorians or Tellarites. However, by forming a coalition they can combine ideas and strengths from everyone while covering up everyone else's weaknesses. As for space opera I'd also be up for some new space opera that was also not grimdark corpostate hellscape. People keep mentioning The Expanse but it's always sounded to me like a combination of the less attractive parts of UC Gundam and modern prestige television. e: Another factor with the Federation would be that they can blob up with other minor powers. The Betazoids might have been a C-list space power, as were the Benzars and those guys with transparent heads; but you coordinate enough C-listers and you start topping the A-list. In the Yesterday's Enterprise universe this process might have stopped or even reversed itself, with recent Federation members seeking separate peaces or so forth. Nessus fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 21:50
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Yeah, I adore Sunshine until it takes a hard left into a weird slasher film. The last twenty minutes or so feel like they come from a different script.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:51
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Zurui posted:Yeah, I adore Sunshine until it takes a hard left into a weird slasher film. The last twenty minutes or so feel like they come from a different script.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:53
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Nessus posted:e: Another factor with the Federation would be that they can blob up with other minor powers. The Betazoids might have been a C-list space power, as were the Benzars and those guys with transparent heads; but you coordinate enough C-listers and you start topping the A-list. In the Yesterday's Enterprise universe this process might have stopped or even reversed itself, with recent Federation members seeking separate peaces or so forth. Yeah I imagine in another show you could have had an entire arc of the Dominion trying to split off individual federation members, since the federation seems more like the EU+NATO than a true federated state.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:00
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Nessus posted:As for space opera I'd also be up for some new space opera that was also not grimdark corpostate hellscape. People keep mentioning The Expanse but it's always sounded to me like a combination of the less attractive parts of UC Gundam and modern prestige television. Expanse is indeed slightly UC Gundam in terms of its setting but I think the plotting is a cut above random “prestige” show. It’s an adaptation so has the inestimable advantage of knowing more or less where it is going. It somewhat suffers from dickish characters but then again, it isn’t a procedural about justice and exemplary conduct but a thriller about intrigue, war, and dirty deeds. A bit noir/cyberpunk but not grimdark.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:00
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skasion posted:Expanse is indeed slightly UC Gundam in terms of its setting but I think the plotting is a cut above random “prestige” show. It’s an adaptation so has the inestimable advantage of knowing more or less where it is going. It somewhat suffers from dickish characters but then again, it isn’t a procedural about justice and exemplary conduct but a thriller about intrigue, war, and dirty deeds. A bit noir/cyberpunk but not grimdark.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:02
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Baronjutter posted:I really really hated Sunshine. Sunshine is like 2/3rds of a good movie and then it just goes completely off the rails and into the trash heap
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Jan 31, 2018 22:04
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Sash! posted:Also: Going through the list on Memory Alpha per various canon and non-canon sources it is a "rescue mission" consisting of Excelsior, 8-9 Constitutions, Constellation, 1-2 Mirandas, a Ranger-class cruiser, several Oberths and the Whorfin which may well have been a transport like the class of the same name. That'd be one of the biggest battle groups seen in the entire franchise to fight anything other than an out-of-quadrant threat.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:04
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cheetah7071 posted:Yeah I imagine in another show you could have had an entire arc of the Dominion trying to split off individual federation members, since the federation seems more like the EU+NATO than a true federated state. This was apparently the plan for season 4 of DS9 before the studio mandated Worf and the Klingons. The original plan was for Vulcan to secede from the Federation in what would have turned out to be a changeling plot - Home Front/Paradise Lost was adapted from that planned story.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:06
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shovelbum posted:Going through the list on Memory Alpha per various canon and non-canon sources it is a "rescue mission" consisting of Excelsior, 8-9 Constitutions, Constellation, 1-2 Mirandas, a Ranger-class cruiser, several Oberths and the Whorfin which may well have been a transport like the class of the same name. That'd be one of the biggest battle groups seen in the entire franchise to fight anything other than an out-of-quadrant threat.
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Jan 31, 2018 22:10
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shovelbum posted:Going through the list on Memory Alpha per various canon and non-canon sources it is a "rescue mission" consisting of Excelsior, 8-9 Constitutions, Constellation, 1-2 Mirandas, a Ranger-class cruiser, several Oberths and the Whorfin which may well have been a transport like the class of the same name. That'd be one of the biggest battle groups seen in the entire franchise to fight anything other than an out-of-quadrant threat. On the other hand, I feel like there is some historical precedent in bringing overwhelming firepower to an operation not intended to kick off a war, in Operation Paul Bunyan: quote:A U.S. Infantry company in 20 utility helicopters and seven Cobra attack helicopters circled behind them. Behind these helicopters, B-52 Stratofortresses, came from Guam escorted by U.S. F-4 Phantom IIs from Kunsan Air Base and South Korean F-5 and F-86 fighters were visible flying across the sky at high altitude. At Taegu Air Base, F-111 bombers of the 366th Tactical Fighter Wing out of Mountain Home Air Force Base, were stationed, and F-4 Phantoms C and D from the 18th TFW Kadena Air Base and Clark Air Base were also deployed. The aircraft carrier USS Midway task force had also been moved to a station just offshore. All that and more, just to cut down a tree. Now, that said, I'm sure the "official" rationale under Operation Retrieve was "we need those assets on hand in case things turn ugly," while in their heads the admirals who devised it were thinking "...and we'll make sure things turn ugly."
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Jan 31, 2018 22:28
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Brawnfire posted:Ah, that's an interesting context, but I still think black and blue and sleek doesn't evoke Klingonness. It looks like a different race. It's actually red by default. In that picture is a red and white variant under blue lighting. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 23:02
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:On the other hand, I feel like there is some historical precedent in bringing overwhelming firepower to an operation not intended to kick off a war, in Operation Paul Bunyan: quote:In addition, a 64-man South Korean Special Forces company accompanied them, armed with clubs and trained in Tae Kwon Do, supposedly without firearms. However, once they parked their trucks near the Bridge of No Return, they started throwing out the sandbags that lined the truck bottoms, and handing out M16 rifles and M79 grenade launchers that had been concealed below.[3] Several of the special forces men also had M18 Claymore mines strapped to their chests with the firing mechanism in their hands, and were shouting at the North Koreans to cross the bridge.[14][15] Don't forget the Klingons
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Jan 31, 2018 23:20
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:On the other hand, I feel like there is some historical precedent in bringing overwhelming firepower to an operation not intended to kick off a war, in Operation Paul Bunyan: I was actually going to mention that one. Probably the only tree ever cut down with strategic bombers supporting the job. Ah, the good old days of the Korean Conflict, when all you had to worry about were North Koreans rolling up in some buses.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:27
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MikeJF posted:It's actually red by default. In that picture is a red and white variant under blue lighting. Holy poo poo, I had to sprain my eyes to see that, but you're right. I like it a little bit better now, although it does look a lot like a Republic ship from Star Wars that way.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:37
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So I decided to keep watching TOS. Dang, The Menagerie is pretty good. I read that the original pilot didn’t air until 1988, so most of the footage was new for the people watching it at the time. It’s really cool having seen the pilot episode before this watching how they shoehorned the footage in.
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Feb 1, 2018 00:21
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Baronjutter posted:I'd love something that combined the hard scifi feel of the expanse but combined with trek's hopeful utopianism. My dream Trek arc would be a story about a pre-warp civilisation that has sending out hello messages for years but has been left alone due to the Prime Directive, and it's only when a mission is sent to investigate them further that it is realised their whole region of space simply doesn't allow subspace/warp technologies to work. In many ways they could be more technologically advanced than the Federation, but limited to a handful of star systems that they have to spend years travelling between. Have the story end with the discovery that the region of space could be "fixed" to allow warp travel and having made contact with the outside galaxy and the threats it contains the native species has to decide if they want to open themselves up, or stay trapped in their safe bubble.
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