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Wandering Idiot posted:Someone may be able to correct me on this, but I believe breakers are only guaranteed to trip once, beyond that, it can be a toss-up as to whether or not it will trip at all. Not that it doesn't stop people from flipping breakers to listen to wires rattle in the pipes. Do you mean for the lifetime of the breaker, or for one incident? tworavens posted:I've heard that they get more sensitive to trips with time, Most standard (non GFCI, non arc fault) breakers are thermal. If you've just tripped it, it's still warm and won't take much to trip it again until it cools down. Over the useful life span of the breaker this shouldn't be significantly changed, as the portions of the breaker that make it trip are just one or more tension springs and a bimetal spring that deforms with heat. None of these things should significantly wear/break unless there was a major over current event like a lightning strike. I'd wager that most people who think their problem breaker has "worn out" and replace it to find the problem solved actually had poor conductivity on the bus or hot lead (causing heat) and a simple cleaning and reinstallation would have produced the same results. Delivery McGee posted:*The breaker may actually be 20A; it hasn't tripped yet, but when I tried to use a 15A surge-protector power strip as an extension cord it cut out as soon as I sparked the welder on high setting. Most surge supressor strips are (overpriced) garbage with very poor tolerances. Having one trip below its rated threshold or not trip above its threshold should not come as any sort of surprise. Motronic fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Feb 25, 2011 |
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Feb 25, 2011 21:03
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Blistex posted:Hey, thought the thread title was pretty appropriate, so here goes. I see this on a regular basis (I'm a part time Fire Marshal for a small town). Extension cords of any type are for temporary use only, and this is one of the reasons why. There is nearly NO reason to ever use an extension cord indoors (unless you are powering a saw or some other temporary device while you are working on the place) with the availability of inexpensive power strips and other fused type extension/plug multipliers. I also see cords fail that otherwise wouldn't have because people twist them around the legs of tables or back around themselves trying to make them look nice. Don't do this. It down-rates the cord an unknown amount (depending on how the wrapping was done). Wire is rated partially based on heat dissipation when it is not doubled back/tied to itself. When you wrap it up like this, it can't dissipate heat to the same degree so it fails with less current. Another popular one is running a cord through a wall. Seriously people, get another outlet installed. I've see WAY too many of these setups fail because of abrasion on the cords where they go through the wall. It usually starts a nice in-wall fire so my evidence eradication team (the firefighters) have to rip the whole thing apart to put it out. Add that to my living in a very old town where most buildings are balloon construction (no fire breaks between floors) and it can make for a very bad day - we show up and the attic is on fire, and it turns out to be from something in a wall on the first floor, so we have to rip the walls out all the way up through the second floor.
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May 2, 2011 17:04
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quadpus posted:You'd love this then Yeah, that made it around the office a while ago. While that's pretty bad an all, I've seen worse - things involving 300A service entrances, old fuse boxes that were used as cross connects to the new breaker box, and wood strips to keep the bugs from touching the metal in said converted fuse box.
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May 2, 2011 21:28
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grover posted:Install an SPD on the panel that feeds them, and you can protect everything. Most commercial/industrial applications will put SPD on every level of power distribution, as it provides much better protection than just power strips. They're pretty cheap; I even went and put a low-end one on my house for about $30 IIRC; I posted about it earlier in this thread. This is relevant to my interests and I know nothing about them. Your old post includes a dead amazon link. Here's one that works for anyone interested. From what I've read so far, I understand how to install it. I understand how to know if it's still working. I don't understand what happens and how if it detects a surge. Can you explain/point me a good resource to learn about it?
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May 11, 2011 03:44
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You are both awesome. Thank you.
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May 11, 2011 14:09
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Hillridge posted:I just moved into a space with 208 3-phase. If I have any equipment that's designed to work off of 240, do I need a separate transformer for each circuit, or can I run 208 to a sub-panel that converts to 240 and feeds multiple circuits? Any recommendations on this? Are you positive your equipment won't run on 208? I've only run across very very few things that need to be either 208 or 240 (high end and quite old UPSes....think nasty early 90's filing cabinet sided Lieberts).
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May 11, 2011 19:53
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tworavens posted:Complain to your power company. It could be a generation problem, but it could be some weird harmonics from an industrial user near by. A good ups system will filter the power well. That would have to be a REALLY good UPS system. Like something you'd find in a datacenter. Anything up to a single rack UPS is going to flip out and go on battery with voltages and frequencies like that. The only kind of UPS that is going to fix a frequency issue are the ones that run the load on inverter all the time and only charge off of the mains. That's getting into the APC Symmetra class stuff which is hardly a solution for a home.
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May 26, 2011 14:42
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grover posted:but you still need to run an actual ground wire from the main panel. How does this work if the main panel has a bonded neutral/ground? What exactly are you attaching to what? If you ran ground to ground, you'd just be bonding the neutral bar and the ground on the sub panel as well, but through the main panel, no?
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Jun 6, 2011 15:49
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chedemefedeme posted:Think about how if you had ground and neutral bonded at your subpanel and at the main panel current would be equally liable to flow from the neutral connections in the subpanel through the ground cable to the main panel as it would be to use the proper neutral cable. grover posted:People don't often think of wires as resistors, YES. This is what I was missing in my thought process. Thank you both.
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Jun 7, 2011 03:12
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chedemefedeme posted:Laser printers are common culprits in situations similar to what you describe. They pull very very high current for super short periods of time. If you have one in your home unplug it and see if it happens for a while. Only very old laser printers. Anything made past 2000 or so is going to go to sleep and not keep the fuser hot (which is nothing more than a 200+ watt lightbulb running through a metal tube) unless you are using it. While I'm far from any sort of authority on electrical, I did used to repair laser printers for a living.
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Jun 27, 2011 13:59
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diremonk posted:I'm going to have to plug the gap with material since it will be between a halon area and one that has conventional fire suppression, at least that is what the guy that services our halon system said. Any ideas or different ways to go about this. This is one area I may be of help in. First, read this: http://www.ecmag.com/section/codes-standards/fire-stopping-what-every-contractor-needs-know It's a good primer on the rating of the material you will need for your calking/fire stopping through the penetration. What you need depends on what materials you use for your conduit (which is probably going to have to be metal). If it's going from an area with any kind of gas discharge/displacement system (I doubt you have Halon unless it's been in there forever, but it doesn't really matter) to an area without one or with a separate zone of that system it has to be ABSOLUTELY air tight. In fact, you may even be required to pass a "door fan test" at the conclusion of the work if you have to pull permits.
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Jul 9, 2013 02:26
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Holy crap those are awesome.
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Jul 9, 2013 19:21
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Nebulis01 posted:If you end up running anything in your attic pretty sure to code you should be running plenum cable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plenum_cable) Only if your attic is being used as a plenum. I've yet to see a residential setup where this is the case. You need to understand that plenum is run above commercial drop ceilings because that space is typically used as the return duct (plenum) for forced air heat and AC. It's got better smoke spread characteristics (lower) which is required so that in case of a fire it won't spread smoke through the HVAC system as much before a duct detector trips and shuts the system down.
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Jul 18, 2013 02:38
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kid sinister posted:PO? Previous Owner. And I agree that it's a total no-go with Romex/NM as the NEC says absolutely not in a "wet or damp location" with "damp" being defined elsewhere in the code using an example of under a deck. Some people would let it through with UF...it's a gray area. I wouldn't have it at my own house. NMLT conduit is too cheap and easy to install to be worrying about cable abrasion.
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Jul 21, 2013 03:50
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Mikemo Tyson posted:I'm not exactly sure of where to post this but: Ask for a bill with line items. Ask how long it took specifically. I bet your detailed bill comes back a lot smaller, as the big line item is going to have to say that 6 guys were on site for those 2 hours at $74/hr.
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Jul 21, 2013 04:12
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grover posted:UF is a lot like romex, only it's solid rubber jacket instead of a thin rubber sheath with paper filler like NM-B. Data on NM-B cable is printed on the jacked, but UF is stamped- if it's UF, you should be able to see it through the paint. If you can't tell, open the GFCI receptacle and look at the termination. The gray area isn't about the moisture resistance, it's about lack of abrasion resistance in a cable who's abrasion resistance is supposed to be supplemented by 12" of soil or by being behind drywall or in a conduit. That's why it's a gray area. It depends on exactly where it is and how likely it would be to come in contact with something that will rub up against it. I can't make that call without seeing it. FYI I'm not just making assumptions here. I was code enforcement - fire marshal to be precise - for the better part of the last decade so this is 100% in my wheelhouse but of course codes aren't the same everywhere nor are interpretations of what may be the exact same code. I'm just calling it the way _I_ would have responded to someone in my jurisdiction asking the same question.
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Jul 21, 2013 15:37
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:But it shouldn't be treated as poor-man's AC/MC, or really be used anywhere at all where you could whack into it. Under decks: probably OK. Running up the inside of your arbor to the sweet bug light? Probably not OK. Get some conduit. I absolute agree with everything in this post. My caution on the under the deck usage is simply because I don't know what it looks like. I've seen many decks that are high enough to be used as storage but low enough to end up having mowers and crap get jammed far enough in to touch the top. If there's any chance of it being used as a storage area of for any usage where something could end up under there and touch the cable it puts it in the territory of "this needs to be AC/MC AND it needs to be moisture resistant". It's cheap and it's common sense. And, yes, I've seen it burn down a deck and melt the siding off the back of a house. Also, if your experience doesn't include seeing things after the fact (like you only work new construction or reno jobs) you would be horrified at what people do and how they use spaces after the fact (especially in rental properties). Sure, it's not everyone. It's not even most people. But the code and it's interpretation is meant as a hedge against social darwinism for these type of people. Motronic fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jul 22, 2013 |
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Jul 22, 2013 00:18
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:This stuff. I got a big can of it when I was in the Navy. It doesn't say "dielectric" on it anywhere. I've also seen electrical contact grease at auto parts stores. Searching Google, some people call both of those dielectric grease, but dielectric grease is not designed to be put on the contacts, where electric grease is. Dielectric grease is for waterproofing/lubrication in and around connectors; electric grease is for electrical contacts specifically. That stuff has the same electrical properties but it's a better lubricant than silicone based dielectric grease, which is why it's typically used on switches and the like. Just like silicone dielectric grease, it is not marketed or supposed to be a conductor. In fact, if it were it would be terrible for the way it's typically used.
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Jul 26, 2013 01:25
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diremonk posted:Thanks for the replies about my ladder tray question. I got about half done, but haven't started working on the part that will go through the firewall. Yeah...labeling isn't your problem. Cable routing and management is. While labeling could make it better......I dunno. I typically use a standard set of fabric cable labels and have a chart on the rack to explain what is what if necessary (it usually isn't unless something else has been done incorrectly).  Sure, you could go fancier and get a machine to print what you want on the labels, but unless you're a professional cabler or are dealing with a whole datacenter the expense seems unjustified. But if you've got $600 burning a hole in your budget go for a Panduit PanTher.
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Jul 27, 2013 01:24
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kid sinister posted:Speaking of weirdo breakers, I swear I remember seeing a quad breaker. I'm not talking 2 tandems tied together, but 4 breakers in a single package. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? A 2-pole tandem. 
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Jul 30, 2013 19:28
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kid sinister posted:Nah, I'm talking 4 switches in a single breaker. Maybe I imagined it? That is a single breaker and there are 4 switches........ I'm really not clear on what you're describing past that.
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Jul 30, 2013 20:28
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Dalrain posted:Others may correct me, but it's my understanding that low voltage stuff can do whatever you want since it's not a safety hazard. That's correct. LV doesn't count by code (until we start talking commercial and even then it's only smoke spread).
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Aug 2, 2013 04:17
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Guy Axlerod posted:I have a leak under my kitchen sink, so I was emptying everything out. I noticed that the power for the garbage disposal is just some romex that comes out of a hole in the wall, shared with the PVC drain line. That isn't up to code, is it? It could have been for the time/area....but probably not. It should be at least MC if you're hard wiring to the disposal, but more typically it's an outlet as most disposals come with a plug.
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Aug 4, 2013 15:39
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Walked posted:I'm in the process of buying a home built in 1925. From the looks of it the electrical has been revamped. Most home inspectors are idiots and/or failed builders (or worse, failed building inspectors who are themselves largely failed builders). So whether you need someone else or not really depends on what you are trying to do. Do you need the home to appraise well because you don't have much of a down payment? Then just use an inspector the mortgage company tells you to. If not, find a proper inspector and maybe even hire other professionals for more scrutiny.
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Aug 6, 2013 01:18
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Raised by Hamsters posted:Sorry, to be clear, I know I need a transformer. This is part of a new outdoor lighting project and I was hoping to keep my options open for more lighting options in other areas, which seem to mostly run on 12v AC. On some of these outdoor rope light kits, I've seen people saying they're running them on 12v AC power instead of DC - giving a possibly perceptible flicker and reduced light output, but otherwise fine functionality. Or I suppose I could stop being cheap and just buy a DC transformer for this rope light part. What "lighting options" are you finding in 12v AC? Landscape lights are largely going to 12 VDC which makes it very easy to swap in LEDs and have them at full brightness (incans dont' care either way). The extra cost of a bridge rectifier in the transformer is well worth it.
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Aug 22, 2013 01:25
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Raised by Hamsters posted:I did not know that was a thing... Thanks! I don't have a huge amount of experience with electronics and I've never dealt with transformers before. I dont' know what lights/fixtures you're looking at, but all the common ones (at least in my experience on the east coast) are DC. Here's a solid no-name 300w transformer that costs half of that one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/300-WATT-12V-LOW-VOLTAGE-LANDSCAPE-LIGHTING-TRANSFORMER-/151092725227?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232dd405eb I have one of those on my house and several others at other people's houses. They work great. Then go buy knock off lights in cast aluminum housings for $25-45 a piece, or shell out 3 times that much for Kichler or Malibu. This stuff isn't complicated and doesn't need to be expensive for high quality parts that last. You just won't find those kinds of parts at big box stores, and if you go for the "big name" commercial ones you will be raked over the coals on price because you aren't a contractor/wholesaler. What specifically are you trying to re-use or what have you found that your'e concerned with here? It seems like you have one or more fixtures in mind besides the rope lighting.
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Aug 22, 2013 04:04
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Qwijib0 posted:Kichler or Malibu at the big box stores are all knock-off quality anyway. Unless you want to step up to something like Nightscaping, go hog wild on aliexpress or whatever chinese bulk site suits your fancy. Yeah, I wasn't clear on that. If your big box store has something other than plastic lights, they are subpar quality low end models or knock offs. They are not the same ones you'd get if you hired a proper professional to do the install.
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Aug 22, 2013 04:30
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Raised by Hamsters posted:Anyway I really didn't expect this to be complicated but apparently I'm easily confused - On the transformer you linked, what are you seeing that tells you it is outputting in DC? Or is that assumed unless it says otherwise? Also since you have experience with that one, do you get much buzzing off of it? This will be located fairly close to the main seating area. I don't see anything in that particular auction to say what it is, but I know it is because I've got a few of those exact units. It buzzes some, but it's not very loud. I don't have it set up near a seating area, so I can't say how annoying it might be. My setup is to have that transformer set to turn on dusk to dark (using the photo eye), and then I have it on an outdoor outlet controlled by a timer. That way I can turn it "on" at like 4 PM and off at 11:30. Regardless of the time of year, my lights turn on as dusk and off at 11:30. While the rope lighting is nice, you may also want to look into things like these. They are inexpensive, cast aluminum, the seals/o rings they come with are very good and you don't need too many to cover an area. While they aren't as nice as some of the high end lights I used to install they are really quite nice and excellent for the price. I'm also using several of these as up-lighting on trees. The "trick" with those is to mount them so they are on the side of trees in the area you want to light up, like around your deck. Then you get a nice reflected light off of the canopy and it fills in the shadows. It makes it feel like you're in a nice lit oasis in the dark. But that's all up to what you like. It was always a popular way to go with customers. We used to keep a few of them around to quickly spike in front of trees and just run the cables over the ground and leave it for an evening. We'd typically get a call just after dark or the next morning with a "YES, DO IT."
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Aug 22, 2013 17:41
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Sleepstupid posted:Is there an easy way to get coax from the attic of a 2-story house down to the basement? We got lucky in our current place in that it was already done, but we're moving to a new house and I'd like to replicate the same antenna-in-the-attic setup. Totally depends on the house. If you have closets in the same place on the first and second floor you can drill through them and tack the cable up on the back where you won't see it. Some places even have cable chases going from the attic to the basement, but nobody is ever really that lucky.......
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Aug 23, 2013 20:10
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Edit: way to post a response in the wrong thread!
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Aug 26, 2013 16:25
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grover posted:Not exactly; AFCI breakers include GFI as well as arc detection, That would be a CAFCI, not an AFCI.
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Sep 3, 2013 01:07
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stupid puma posted:It's against code, right? If you were building a new home it would be. Or remodeling. Electrical and building codes are not enforced ex-post-facto. Some things (not those) may be required on a change of ownership/C of O.
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Sep 3, 2013 20:46
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Bobulus posted:Neutral to ground: 50V If that truly is a ground, that right there is a big red flag that there is something terribly wrong, and not just with those outlets.
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Sep 14, 2013 20:22
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Bobulus posted:I was assuming that the 3-prong ungrounded stuff was just grandfathered in at some point, it being a very old house Putting in a 3 prong outlet without a ground has never been OK (GFCI exception to that already noted), therefore it can't be "grandfathered". The other place to check for GFCI is the breaker box. They COULD be on GFCI breakers.
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Sep 14, 2013 22:02
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Dirty Beluga posted:I'm having trouble understanding why ground is connected to neutral inside my electric panel. Neutral from the power company IS ground. They are the only people allowed to use the earth as a conductor. Neutral at the pole is literally connected to a ground rod. You bond them in one place and one place only (somewhere near the service entrance, typically in the main panel) because this separates YOUR ground from the neutral current return past the panel (your inside wiring). If they were connected elsewhere you could have "objectionable current" on your ground lindes, which in system design are NOT to be used for normal current carrying, they are a safety. In a sub panel in an outbuilding you do NOT bond the ground an neutral (doing so would create a dangerous situation). You run that panel ground bus to it's own grounding system near the building where it is installed.
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Sep 16, 2013 18:45
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Gothmog1065 posted:My house does not have a grounding wire. I found this out last night when my TWC tech let me know. Because nobody else would. Are you sure you don't have a ground? It's just a likely to be on your water pipe as it is to be a copper rod or rods. What and where you must ground really depends on your service entrance, but you likely can't go wrong with a couple of 8 or 10 foot copper rods driven in 6 feet apart and bonded together, then attached to both the meter and your panel. You'll likely be the one responsible for all of that, including connection to the meter for which you'll likely need to get the power company involved. If your meter box is connected with EMT to the panel and not too far away it would probably be just fine to ground the panel only.
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Sep 17, 2013 20:34
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stevewm posted:Would I be OK to slap a 60A breaker in the outside box to feed the garage instead of feeding from the main house panel? The meter box is only 25ft from the garage so it would be a considerably easier and shorter path. What is your service rated at? If it's more than the combination of the breakers, sure you can do that. But if it's 200A service that's a big no-no.
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Sep 17, 2013 21:54
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stevewm posted:The feed going to the main house panel is on the output/load side of this breaker, as would be the 60A breaker feeding the garage. That's not was I was picturing. In that case, yes, it should be just fine. You'll need to separate the neutral and ground in the sub panel and provide another grounding mechanism for the sub panel, not connected to the main house ground (just throw in a couple ground rods and bond them together). kastein posted:There is a 95% chance the TWC tech is lazy/stupid/incompetent. Cable install techs are almost universally worthless. This is an excellent point.
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Sep 17, 2013 23:06
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Gothmog1065 posted:I was with him the entire time. The only thing going into the ground is a buried 220 line in conduit that goes to my outside AC unit, and there weren't any wires going under the house either. I don't think it's on the water as my water supply comes in from the opposite side of the house. I'm going to pull the panel off Friday to see if I can see anything run. Well, don't discount that you could have buried ground rods (like completely buried). And if this is an old house, it sounds like you might have 60A service. It was common. Just because there's a 100A downstream doesn't mean the load center was installed wrong. The AC could have been installed wrong/oversized and somebody was too cheap to upgrade their service. kastein posted:Dumb question. Basement only circuit, dirt/future cement floor, only enough outlets to run heat tape on pipes and a sump pump. Do I have to use GFCI, or can I get away with a regular breaker given that it's special purpose with all outlets permanently occupied? Hoping for the latter because GFCIs for QO panels cost more than our aid to Africa in a given decade. Use a GFCI outlet. Is it REQUIRED in an unfinished basement? If you code is or references NEC, it has been since the late 80s.
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Sep 18, 2013 15:15
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kastein posted:That's a good idea, forgot I could do that even though I did exactly that in my bathroom. I heard there was a limit on the number of outlets that can be run off the load terminals of a GFCI, though I've never seen justification for it. There is, and I forget what/why, but if you're talking on the scale of what it sounds like (2 outlets or 3 on the load side) you should be fine. My only issue with this is the sump pump. Yeah, it's code to be on GFCI, but I really wouldn't want that on the sump pump if I was counting on it. I'm pretty sure I'd rather be possibly electrocuted than have water damage. I'm positive I'd rather have a whole house burn down than deal with water damage.
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Sep 18, 2013 15:54
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