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Oh Snapple! posted:Which just comes off as a silly statement to make when the epitome of ~grimdark~ is pretty much the most popular series in the genre at the moment. The word you're looking for is Machiavellian. Martin isn't writing about rape and murder and whatnot for the sake of rape and murder and whatnot, they are simply things that happen as a result of war and political intrigue in a medieval world. Excepting the actual fantasy elements, there's really nothing in ASoIaF that doesn't have a parallel in European history. It's one thing to say, "This is dark fantasy," because that is an identifier that lets the reader know that things aren't going to be sunshine and puppies. Using the term "grimdark", though, as Evfedu said, is meant as a pejorative and is not useful to convey anything other than that the person using it doesn't know what they're talking about. Edit: Actually, let me take a step back. Books that would quality as "grimdark" do, in fact, exist, but they are not a subgenre of fantasy. Rather, they are a subgenre of horror. Read anything by Wrath James White (first author to come to mind) and then honestly tell me that anything written by a published fantasy author even comes close. Ornamented Death fucked around with this message at 05:47 on May 12, 2013 |
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May 12, 2013 05:27
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Honest Ray posted:Speaking of books, how is Prince of Thorns? I saw some people mentioning it and I'm looking for something new to read. It's pretty good, and the sequel, King of Thorns is legitimately one of the best fantasy novels written in the last five years. The series has it's fair share of naysayers (just see the previous page...), but you'll often, though not always, find that such people didn't actually read more than the first chapter or two and thus never got to the whys of all the horrible poo poo going on.
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May 14, 2013 01:29
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I finally got around to finishing The Heroes. Holy gently caress is Gorst annoying.
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May 18, 2013 06:34
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Lemon Curdistan posted:Obviously, Abercrombie realised that it wasn't okay and later apologised about it; that's great! The problem is that it still happened in the first place, and that rape as a plot device is still incredibly common. I don't think Joe was apologizing for what he did so much as how he went about it. Even in a perfect world he would have still had Terez used as a bargaining chip and raped and all that, he just would have made her a better character so the reader would better understand why that's so horrible. To wit, Joe Abercrombie posted:If Terez is a much more convincing, multi-faceted, less stereotyped character with an authentic voice and a more believable motivation I’m sure many people would still have their problems with this scene but from my point of view at least it would be much improved.
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May 26, 2013 17:00
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FMguru posted:Tolkien already has a Gandalf-gone-bad character in Lord of the Rings: Saruman. Saruman is not a very good basis for comparison. First of all, Saruman bent his knee to Sauron for power while Bayaz up and killed the people that were stronger than him. Second, Saruman is incompetent to the point where he gets his rear end stomped by a bunch of hobbits. Bayaz is foiled much less frequently, and typically only at great cost and on a temporary basis. Gandalf-gone-bad, or Gandalf-with-no-morals, is a much better comparison.
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May 31, 2013 03:33
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Let's keep in mind that that image is fanart. It's done by a professional artist, but it's still fanart.
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Jun 18, 2013 02:39
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Joe Abercrombie has not written about a single character that you could qualify as "good" within the traditional good versus evil paradigm. There are some characters with good qualities, but every single one of them has done, or is actively doing, something that pretty much negates that.
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Aug 9, 2013 02:11
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:How about Hal from The Heroes? I'm having a brainfart or something because I can't remember who that is  .
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Aug 9, 2013 02:44
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Jeffrey posted:Ardee? Finree? Beck made a terrible mistake but I think he learned from it and isn't a bad person. Craw betrayed Calder but seems mostly alright. Ardee is a raging alcoholic with anger issues. Finree is a borderline sociopath concerned only with climbing the social ladder. Beck is a straight-up coward. Craw is more of a neutral figure; you can't really classify him as good, but then he's not really evil either. Bear in mind that I'm not saying every character is evil, I'm just saying that none would qualify as good because of various character flaws. Shades of grey and all that.
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Aug 9, 2013 03:15
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TheWorldIsSquare posted:He's Finree's husband. His father was a traitor so he works harder than anyone else in the army, everyone likes him, and he's concerned with honor and doesn't approve of Finree's manipulations. Ah yeah, he is pretty straightforwardly good. Though like you said, he's not a major character and gets very little screen time and probably won't get more than a passing mention in future books.
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Aug 9, 2013 03:28
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HELLO LADIES posted:Being an alcoholic doesn't make you a bad person, or even automatically not a good person, and her "anger issues" are directed at a bunch of horrible men who treat her like chattel, including the brother who beats her. Ok then, let's get a little more abstract. She knows what Glokta is and probably has a very good understanding of what he does, and is complicit with it. quote:Cowardice doesn't disqualify you from goodness. You're right, hiding in a closet while your allies are slaughtered, then jumping out and killing the lone survivor, albeit accidentally, and taking credit for everything he did is the very definition of goodness. quote:You have a very weird sense of good and evil, then. Or, more to the point, of right and wrong. No, I just try to read what's written without any bias. I think Zeitgueist was on the right track, though I'd maybe put it another way: people tend to want to believe any character that opposes someone they view as evil or wrong is inherently good or right. Ardee and Finree very rightly call out Jezal and Gorst, respectively, on their bullshit, which in turn make some readers want to think better of them. Which is fine, but the characters do not exist in a vacuum and you have to consider everything you know about them. As I just said, Ardee is complicit in Glokta's actions, and you didn't refute my point about Finree so I'll assume you at least partially agreed with it. quote:There's also the leader of the (failed) democratic revolution, for an unambiguous counter-example. Let me rephrase my original statement, then. Abercrombie has not written any POV characters that can be considered "good" in the traditional sense, and the vast majority of secondary and tertiary characters also cannot be considered good. Edit: It's been said before, but kudos to Joe; this is not the sort of discussion you can realistically have about most fantasy series. Ornamented Death fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 04:06
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Good points on Ardee. I still can't see her as good, but you've given me something to thing about. My biggest problem is that your argument basically boils down to "she is innocent of wrongdoing because she (indirectly) capitulates to Bayaz" and you could use that to justify just about anything bad nearly anyone in the books does except for Bayaz himself. You've basically turned Bayaz into an all-powerful Satan and that doesn't fit in my opinion. Edit: More to the point, I would question how much Ardee actually knows about Bayaz and the extent of his power and control. Assuming she is not aware that he is 100% in charge, which I'd say is at least possible, then from her point of view killing Glokta in his sleep would accomplish some small victory. This is kind of am ambiguous point that can be argued either way. HELLO LADIES posted:Still doesn't make him a bad person. That's fine, but I would argue it pretty squarely precludes him from being a good person. Again, I'm not saying every character is evil, I'm just saying most of them are not good. Ornamented Death fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Aug 9, 2013 |
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Aug 9, 2013 04:37
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In other news, Joe's first YA novel will be released in July.
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Aug 9, 2013 14:55
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Juaguocio posted:(mild Red Country spoilers below) That's...not really true. It's pretty obvious when the Bloody Nine takes over, even though Shy (or the active POV character) doesn't know that's what's happening.
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Aug 10, 2013 04:33
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Juaguocio posted:I don't like the idea of the Bloody Nine being some kind of demon possessing Logen, so I may be pushing my own interpretation when the evidence is not really there. I think it would be much more interesting if Logen's twisted mind is responsible for his actions, rather than some supernatural force. I don't think he's possessed, I think he just has two distinct personalities and one of them is a horrifying monster of a murderer.
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Aug 10, 2013 15:22
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Zeitgueist posted:Saying that they are actually two beings strikes me as an attempt to rationalize a character that readers love with the fact that he's also a murdering psychopath. That's pretty much what this thread has become, but for every character  .
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Aug 12, 2013 23:41
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Yeah it's not like they took part in kidnapping his kids, murdering his friend, and burning down his farm. Oh wait... There aren't many fantasy settings in which that particular set of men would have survived.
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Aug 14, 2013 03:40
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cheese posted:I might be misremembering, but I thought it was implied that those 3 left because their job had turned into something more than they planed? Like they signed on to kidnap some people but murdering and so forth was more than they wanted? Maybe that was just Logen's musing though. Either way, he absolutely relished unleashing the Bloody-Nine on those 3 the way a fox would relish butchering some fat chickens. They did, in fact, come to that conclusion, but only after murdering Logen's friend, burning down his farm, and kidnapping his children. Again, doing stuff like that and then saying "sorry bro, we changed our minds!" isn't going to save them in essentially any fantasy setting.
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Aug 18, 2013 00:12
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Beastie posted:Just a heads up that Red Country was released as a trade paper this week in the US. I'm tempted to buy it so that it matches my collection. It's the only one in the series that I own in cloth. I wish I had the scratch to buy all six books in cloth. I will someday, but right now owning all six as trade paper and all six as ebooks is enough. I don't think there was a US hardcover edition of the trilogy, except for the limited editions and maybe SFBC editions.
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Oct 24, 2013 23:38
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His next book is up for preorder. I may skip this one; I'm not really a fan of YA.
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Dec 7, 2013 04:52
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Red Country is probably the best book Abercrombie's written so far. Honestly it's going to be hard to top.
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Jan 15, 2014 01:44
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Half a King will be the first time I've purchased a YA book. I don't have anything against YA, I just feel like there's enough out there for me to read without needing to bother with books ostensibly aimed at people half my age. But, as UncleMonkey said, this is Abercrombie.
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Jan 24, 2014 05:50
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ulmont posted:Eh. In the context of an action story, Logen doesn't do anything that most action heroes couldn't pull off. Yeah but isn't he the only one doing this successfully? Other characters try crazy poo poo, but they tend to die or end up maimed.
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Jan 31, 2014 21:55
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Here's something far more interesting than this never-ending debate: the first seven chapters of Half a King.
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Apr 1, 2014 02:31
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Neurosis posted:There's a short story in that period about Gorst that Abercrombie did. I can't remember where you'd find it, though. "Yesterday, Near a Village Called Barden" It was a bonus in the Waterstone's edition of The Heroes and maybe in the enhanced ebook version (not sure on that). It'll also be in the short story collection that's due out in like...2016 or something. Edit: Sweet, I got an ARC of Half a King in the mail today. Ornamented Death fucked around with this message at 02:34 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 21:28
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UncleMonkey posted:Oh you bastard! I signed up for a chance at that too. No fair! If it makes you feel any better, I'm stuck two states away so my wife gets to read it first, and she is terrible about accidentally dropping spoilers.
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May 13, 2014 02:17
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I just finished Half a King and it was pretty good. I see why it was classified as YA: it's a much more straightforward story and most of the reveals are pretty obvious well in advance. Yarvi can be a bit annoying at times, but all the other characters are very well done. Overall a solid story worth reading.
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May 31, 2014 03:33
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Grand Prize Winner posted:I would have put him further down the spectrum than just Aspergers. Yeah, he is just barely functional.
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Jun 11, 2014 03:34
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Street Soldier posted:Those preview chapters for Half a King were great, I just preordered it The style's pretty much the same as his First Law books, he just dials back the violence and language a tad and there's only one POV character, so it's a much shorter book. As I mentioned earlier, the plot is a lot more straightforward, but there are some twists and turns that were pretty well done.
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Jun 19, 2014 03:10
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SubPress covers are usually pretty iffy, but their editions of Joe's books have been great. Case in point, Half a King:
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Jul 7, 2014 03:42
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Ccs posted:Sweet, that's a much better cover than the covers his recent books have been getting, which are just meaty arms holding swords. I liked the original covers for the First Law trilogy, which were maps with swords and coins and stuff spread out on them. But now they've been replaced with meaty rim-lit beef arms. This is why I started getting the UK editions.
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Jul 9, 2014 02:08
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Fellwenner posted:Wait, he has a new book out? It hasn't been released in the US yet.
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Jul 10, 2014 12:33
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hemale in pain posted:I had no idea there was a new book out! Just got a signed copy on a shelf from waterstones which was a pleasant surprise. I never noticed the small guys before. That's pretty cool, and gives it a slight edge on the regular US cover. Of course, I'll end up with copies of all the covers so I guess it doesn't matter...
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Jul 12, 2014 02:14
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Speaking of Red Country, the postal service somehow managed to ding up my LE copy. I'm equal parts pissed off and impressed, because that thing was packed like a champ.
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Jul 26, 2014 05:09
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coyo7e posted:Was the packaging damaged? Some books get dropped off the shelves in the warehouse or kicked around before they make it into the box. I used to work at a Barnes & Noble and we'd get boxes of books with one or two sandwiched between all the rest - essentially impervious to damage - and they'd look like someone'd hit 'em with a claw hammer occasionally. Yeah, the box was a bit dinged up. The thing to keep in mind though is that this was shipped by SubPress, an outfit that ONLY deals with collectors, so they won't send out a book if it's dinged up. In fact, they have a fairly consistent problem with certain eBay sellers that basically just go through their (SubPress's) trash, looking for dinged books that they then sell. All's well, though, I spoke to the guy in charge and they're going to send out a replacement.
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Jul 28, 2014 00:07
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coyo7e posted:Were there messenger ravens in his YA stuff? I haven't read them yet. Yes, which is how this conversation got started  .
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Jul 30, 2014 03:14
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packsmack posted:I felt so bad for shivers throughout that book. The whole time it was just "Man, you're a badass stop letting things happen to you." I wish he would have just talked things out with people or just left way earlier in the book. The end of red country I thought was perfect for Shivers though. I thought it showed real character growth in a positive direction. Which is lacking at times in Abercrombie books. Jezal was arguably a better person by the end of the trilogy, it just didn't matter.
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Sep 27, 2014 05:32
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Evfedu posted:These are the most disappointing goddamn posts. I thought the first and second books, while flawed, were fascinating and had serious potential to go places and do super-cool-stuff with the wrap-up. Ugh. The Dark Defiles does exactly that. Morgan ends the story he started in The Steel Remains, which is to say that the Aldrain are dealt with. However, in doing so he opens up a number of side plots that are not resolved. Now whether that's clumsy writing or the plot hooks for a followup book or series is up in the air at this point. The other thing to consider is that Morgan set out to upend the traditional fantasy tropes, which would (I assume) include having everything wrapped up nice and neat by the last page.
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Dec 18, 2014 02:59
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First three chapters of Half the World
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Dec 21, 2014 04:13
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UncleMonkey posted:Wait, so Joe has books 2 and 3 finished? How did you get advance copies of both? Broken Empire is Mark Lawrence. That said, it's possible to have an ARC of Half the World at least, but as far as I know Half a War is still in the editing phase (though the latter part of it). They're both being published this year.
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Jan 7, 2015 04:22
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