Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

blarzgh posted:

Lol, goddamn this state definitely does not need more incompetent loving attorneys.

I come from a jurisdiction where there is no bar exam, you're qualified to do anything (except representing people in criminal proceedings, which is literally the only thing that you need bar for) whenever, and it's abysmal. It also leads to a stupid deadlock where whoever would grade the potential bar exams are exactly the people who are incompetent turds who work because they have a degree, not because they know anything or how to properly do anything, so introducing a bar exam would just make things even worse. People who know their poo poo are, for the most part, in the local equivalent of biglaw, and they neither can be assed nor will be asked to do it (they will be the ones graded by the incompetent idiots in academia and courts).

The jurisdiction is Russia :ussr:

# ¿ Sep 15, 2016 20:35

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# ¿ May 6, 2024 22:22

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Adar posted:

there are three generations of Russian lawyers in my family tree and this is probably actually the best Russian law has been in the last hundred years and change

not that your post isn't completely accurate, because it is

Oh, I do agree
Although it would benefit from not having all of the junk that is introduced for no reasons other than Putin's foreign policy (for example, to me, the stupid food embargo is customs law, not foreign policy)
But everything that isn't purely political is mostly getting better

# ¿ Sep 15, 2016 22:21

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Treemeister posted:

I only wish good things for all of you internet law goons in the new year. Please don't work on Christmas.

There's plenty of people who have no job and thus won't work on Christmas

# ¿ Dec 22, 2016 17:02

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

JohnCompany posted:

Currently working on research regarding speech limitations at airports. At JFK they're telling volunteer lawyers that we can't hold "I'm a lawyer and want to help" signs.

That sounds like something they'd do in Russia

# ¿ Jan 31, 2017 17:43

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

I just randomly remembered a thing
Back in my law school days some guys would wear a suit to class every day
You would also see an occasional bowtie and eyes would roll

Do law school kids do this in the US?

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 17:15

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Mr. Nice! posted:

Yes.

Kalman posted:

Yes. especially the part with the eye rolling.

Phil Moscowitz posted:

Yes! Sometimes in the south they show up in a bow tie and a loving seersucker.

Good to know that some things are the same no matter where you are :v:

# ¿ Feb 10, 2017 21:49

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Hot Dog Day #91 posted:

I believe there are a few schools that let you finish your undergraduate degree as part of your first year of law school. They're mostly gimmick schools attempting to attract their own undergrads.

Partly, I think a 25 year old who went straight from kindergarten to being a lawyer with no breaks is woefully inexperienced to work as an actual litigator. But I imagine that's why they spend 5 years doing background work at firms before they even see courtrooms.

Wait, does that mean that US lawyers do nothing but background work until they're in their late 20s/early 30s?
I'm 22, I began working a week ago after two LLM equivalents ( a)without any "summer associate" things during law school and whatnot, and b) don't laugh at "LLM equivalent", in Russia it's not only a waste of time and money, but also a prerequisite to get hired anywhere half-decent), and I have my first court hearing in a week and a half
I'd go loving insane if I had to do nothing but doc review anbd research for years

# ¿ Mar 17, 2017 18:16

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nonexistence posted:

On a lower level of discourse, this is what your clients do to come to the decision that you are a bad lawyer even though you gave sound advice.

Also, any coffee productivity pros itt have an opinion on how best to stagger coffee to not become immune to caffeine?

Preworkouts. Or caffeine pills, as the poster above suggests. Or both

# ¿ Mar 19, 2017 14:08

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

The plaintiff (me, the case is bulletproof): the defendant proposed to settle, but we don't want to settle
The defendant (who knows they have no case): we want to settle, here's our proposal
The plaintiff: we know your proposal, we don't want to settle
Judge: gently caress off plaintiff, if I don't give you time to settle now, then you'll just end up settling during the appeal. Come back in a month

For this, my colleague and I had to wait for 2 hours. The hearing lasted exactly 3 minutes and 39 seconds.
I hate this.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2017 22:19

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

mastershakeman posted:

are you really this naive or is it an internet persona thing

In Europe, some areas of international law are an actual thing that exists. Human rights law is one of these areas.

# ¿ Apr 17, 2017 23:02

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nice piece of fish posted:

And in a big way. Human Rights, or specifically the ECHR, are usually incorporated into national law, oftentimes even written into the constitution itself or at least given weight whenever conflicting with national law. This has a bunch of important effects, not the least of which procedural. For example, this means that in general in Europe you have the right to be considered "charged" with a criminal offence once you are detained, which unlocks a bunch of rights that are vital to your defence, not the least of which the immediate right to an attourney. ECHR also homogenizes a (very strict) principle of double jeopardy as another for instance, and even imposes a positive obligation to act on states under art. 2 and 3 where the member nation is required to promptly and efficiently investigate, prosectute and punish murder and torture. You wouldn't think that last one would be much of a right, but Turkey (that shining beacon on a hill when it comes to human rights ) has been convicted several times for that.

It is some very real poo poo, because it also extends to property rights (property is human rights, who knew?).

Here in Russia, there are lawyers whose primary practice is doing ECHR cases where Russia violated [insert literally any provision of the ECHR]
Also, international law lawyers are the only people here with something resembling legal writing skills :v:

# ¿ Apr 18, 2017 16:59

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nice piece of fish posted:

Sounds like a good racket. Wait, domestically or direct complaints? Russia does have art. 13 remedies, right?

Direct complaints. Russia doesn't have an awful lot of fundamental defects left in its legislation, it's the legislative process for new legislation and the way people apply it that is profoundly hosed

Nice piece of fish posted:

And of course the dueling right/special process of Holmgang is our own idea, which is why swordsmanship is an elective in uni even though it's fairly rare these days.

This is awesome. Is there a conversion course for Norwegian law? Preferably one where speaking English and sort of kind of Swedish would be enough? :v;

# ¿ Apr 21, 2017 17:30

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

I never thought I'd get to tinker with the website of my law firm, but here I am
I guess this is what associates in boutiques do

# ¿ Apr 29, 2017 17:00

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Trumps Baby Hands posted:

I'll won't experience the joy of making a bunch of money that I never have a chance to spend because I'm spending 80 hours a week doing busy work for assholes and then get fired after 10 years because there's a whole new crop of desperate millenials who will do the same work basically for free

Not that I'm criticizing the lives of anyone in the thread. Being a lawyer is a unique life experience and all of you seem to be owning the situation with as much dignity and grace as you can muster

When there's a new lawyer thread, this post should be the op
(Except the part about making a bunch of money, I make 600$/month and that's slightly above market for my location and level of seniority)

# ¿ Apr 30, 2017 21:38

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

SlothBear posted:

Trial by jury is only hope innocent people have where I practice.

Where I practice, there is no hope for innocent people.
So I don't practice criminal law, gently caress that poo poo.

# ¿ May 4, 2017 20:37

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nice piece of fish posted:

What kind of work do paralegals do? We don't have them.

In Russia, "paralegal" is one of the terms used to denote the lowest position in the food chain, reserved for last year students and new graduates. Actual functions vary from firm to firm and a paralegal can perform the work of a legal secretary, of a legal secretary on steroids, of a regular secretary, of a courier, of a legal translator, of an administrative assistant, and of an actual lawyer. The last one is very rare and in no case should a paralegal expect to get a living wage.

nutri_void fucked around with this message at 19:17 on May 11, 2017

# ¿ May 11, 2017 19:15

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nice piece of fish posted:

Just being facetious. I can see that happening, at the same time I can see the bar association getting involved to give that judge a proper smack because I can hardly think of anything more stupid than not paying the lawyer their money. It's like not putting oil in your engine.

Russian judges always reduce the amount to laughable numbers. They compare the money billed (the actual costs) to the client against their salary, see that their salary is nowhere near the amount billed, and reduce the fees to like 1500 dollars

nutri_void fucked around with this message at 19:21 on May 11, 2017

# ¿ May 11, 2017 19:19

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Being an eminent international law practitioner that I am, I was summoned to grade some graduation exams in my original law school
Holy loving poo poo, they desperately need something like writing 101. Also "what is a syllogism"
The kids have been in law school in one form or another for 6 years

# ¿ May 20, 2017 17:24

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nice piece of fish posted:

Who the gently caress has energy for that poo poo after office hours.

That's why you do it during office hours. Don't forget to bill it, too.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2017 12:44

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

A court ruling was published 2 hours ago (midnight)
An appeal must be ready by Monday
I love my job

# ¿ Jun 4, 2017 00:24

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nice piece of fish posted:

Oh, and by the way, I just got asked to consult on a choice of law issue, and I was curious as to your take on it:

Consumer bought a house kit (effectively a factory makes a house, ships it and builds it on your plot) through a domestic national agency. Producer is in Finland. The plot of land is domestic, and the deal's been negotiated purely through the domestic agency, which also handles contractor stuff associated with the build. However, the contract for delivery of the house kit is with the finnish company directly, and finnish law allows for - and this is a part of the agreement - that any disputes between the contracting parties must be handled in Finland according to finnish contract law.

What's your gut say about that one?

If you're interested, this is the Lugano convention which both countries have ratified and incorporated into national law http://ec.europa.eu/world/agreements/prepareCreateTreatiesWorkspace/treatiesGeneralData.do?redirect=true&treatyId=7481

Wait, is this a choice of law or a forum selection question?

# ¿ Jun 6, 2017 18:42

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Nice piece of fish posted:

Alright, so here's the thing (just, you know, the quick and dirty version).

The Lugano convention applies, but the Brussels Regime does not, due to reasons of interlegal conflict between national and international law. Only the Lugano convention has been ratified and incorporated in my country.

At the outset, it's an art. 5 issue.

However, as ulmont pointed out, art 23 gives preeminence to choice of jurisdiction, which has been entered into written contract per the legal requirement. At the same time, this is a consumer issue, as JohnCompany pointed out. Therefore, art. 17 comes into play:

Art 17 points to art. 16, which is basically the same as art 5. The agreement does nothing, as this is a special socialist snowflake consumer question. It's a bit more complicated than just that, but this is a sure thing for a few other reasons as well.

Then, of course, there's the obvious choice of law question. Even if the agreement of finnish jurdisdiction can't stand, surely finnish contract law will still apply.

No.

Firstly, all of the above already follows from the code of civil procedure, which is presumed to be in harmony with international treaties and such, but in case of conflict is given preeminence. Special snowflake, remember? The Supreme court has had a number of cases where this has been tried, and it is not in question. The court decides which law to apply, and through the Lugano convention, the parties must abide by this.

So why wouldn't the court choose finnish law? Well firstly, the court is already bound to applying domestic law per the legal court administration law (1). Secondly, it's a consumer issue. This means that the consumer protection act applies to this contract, not regular contract law, and the consumer protection act disallows any agreement where the law does not apply and in fact disallows any and all exceptions from the law, legal or otherwise (2).

But isn't there a bunch of EU/EEA and contract treaty law that applies to... Yes, but preeminence. If there's any other source of law to be considered here, domestic law wins any conflict.

Well, that's bullshit right? Choice of law in this case is specifically regulated through Rome I (Regulation on the Law Applicable to Contractual Obligations).

It is.

However, when it comes to peremptory law (such as the consumer protection act), lex fori applies. This is reflected in Rome I in art. 9:

As you can see from 1, there's also a question of Ordre Public, which in this case is secondary but definitely may apply. This last part is the most shaky part, I feel, but I'm pretty certain.

So that's pretty much it. In most other cases, art. 23 would apply and this would be finnish law in Finland. But it's a consumer issue, and that means everything changes to as far as possible benefit the consumer. The consumer protection act will apply, which in real terms means that finnish law won't matter at all for the issue, which is fantastic for the client because the consumer protection act is a huge help for any contract issue. I can drat near guarantee that the finnish company isn't in compliance.

In other words, some contract monkey in Finland hosed up. Which is why you go to lawyers for your contracts. This is the moral of the story.

1) Do you not have the distinction between procedural and substantive law re: choice of law? In my jurisdiction (Russia), Russian procedural rules will always apply, but the substantive law does not necessarily have to be Russian. This means that, in theory, a Russian court may end up having to try a case and apply, say, Illinois law (of course, no one is actually dumb enough to design any contract like that. I hope). In commecrial disputes, the court is only free to apply Russian law in these situations if the parties to the disopute fail to bring any evidence of what the content of the foreign law in question actually is. In non-commercial disputes (commercial disputes have a separate loving procedure code for them, which is an 85% duplicate of the general civil procedure code), I have no loving idea
2) Wait, what's the point even of being a party to anything international or European, then, barring the slow crawling process of harmonization?

Also, I have my doubts on whether choice of law in consumer protection can be elevated to the level of public policy

# ¿ Jun 7, 2017 23:34

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

evilweasel posted:

i thought russian law was you just put each side's bribe on one side of the scales of justice and the side with the meritorious case drops to the ground

No, it's just regular civil law in regular commercial disputes, "you're hosed" in criminal law, "i have no idea what's going on" in non-commercial disputes.
The only thing close to what you describe is battling against state corporations when they really want something to happen, but even then it's not bribes you put on the scales, but the amount of ex-KGB gangsters you can recruit to support your position (in which case you're hosed if the answer is zero or you refuse to do it for ethical reasons)

The age of bribes in courts is (mostly) gone, today is the age of fear

# ¿ Jun 7, 2017 23:55

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Russia is like 85% paper
70% paper for commercial courts and 100% paper for non-commercial courts

# ¿ Jun 12, 2017 23:32

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

TheAwfulWaffle posted:

JESUS CHRIST. Why is that my version of Acrobat only prints double-sided copies to my secretary's printer, and if I want to print single-sided copies I have to use the goddam printer down that hall that only prints one loving page at a time and needs a loving client-matter number for every. goddam. page.

Also, why am I printing exhibits? Goddam it. Why did all the loving associates quit?

Some questions contain their own answers

# ¿ Jun 14, 2017 20:07

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

A question from a non-US lawgoon:

What ranking is used to set the T1/T2/T3 hierarchy of law schools?

# ¿ Jun 17, 2017 22:41

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Rolled Cabbage posted:

Does anyone know the going rate for doc review in UAE?

This thread doesn't give advice on non-US jurisdictions, apart from the universal "Don't go to law school"
There's like one goonlawyer from Norway and Russia each in the thread, as far as I know
I may have also seen a Canadian

# ¿ Jul 4, 2017 18:28

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Meatbag Esq. posted:

My fantasy job right now is opening a rock climbing gym.

In the core group of four in our small office, the managing partner wants to buy a boat and use it to ship stuff, I want to open a gym, one more guy wants to go into teaching, and the fourth is borderline alcoholic
Go to law school

# ¿ Sep 19, 2017 22:05

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

The best thing is that even if you make something good, it'll be lovely anyway, because everything legal is by definition lovely

# ¿ Oct 7, 2017 18:47

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Jaded Burnout posted:

Yeah baby that's me. The US goons were of the opinion "that's dumb don't do that" while some UK ones felt that UK law school is different enough to (and cheaper enough than) the US version to make it worthwhile.

I decided to go ahead with the first quarter of it that I'd paid for (not nearly as much money as you might be imagining) and see how it goes.

UK? Doesn't it take, like, 4 years after law school to be eligible for becoming qualified?

# ¿ Oct 8, 2017 10:51

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Jaded Burnout posted:

It varies and is changing right now, but yeah. Maybe I do that, maybe I don't.

I considered doing that for a bit (applicable law to any kind of money in my country is the law of England and Wales), because being a common-law qualified lawyer makes me win against any competition by default and ensures that the money I earn is slightly above my current equivalent of 25k/year, but then I saw how many years that takes and gently caress that

# ¿ Oct 8, 2017 15:48

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Tokelau All Star posted:

What's with these married adults feeling like they need to have "friends" and a "social life"?

You're right, tacos are superior to both

# ¿ Oct 13, 2017 22:49

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Phil Moscowitz posted:

You know how sometimes daddy steps on the dog's foot by accident and she cries and everyone feels bad? Daddy's work is like that except at work daddy steps on people and only they cry and nobody really feels bad

New thread title

# ¿ Oct 15, 2017 21:56

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Phil Moscowitz posted:

You're the russian lawyer right? Surely you tell your kids really special and heartwarming things

I'm in my early 20s*, so it's someone else's kids for the foreseeable future

*possible due to the way the education system is structured

# ¿ Oct 15, 2017 22:22

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

My office is seriously considering purchasing a chainsaw with the sole purpose of there being a chainsaw in the office.
We already have a baseball bat for reasons.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2017 17:21

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Newfie posted:

I went to Albert with a team that could not compete because one of our teammates hosed up their part of the written submissions so badly we had a 15/100 point penalty going in. The Jessup usually comes down to a couple point spread. Met some cool Vancouver lawyers who I still talk to though

What the gently caress was your coach doing?

# ¿ Oct 21, 2017 20:13

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Jaded Burnout posted:

Don't go to law school. It's really boring.

That was quick

# ¿ Oct 21, 2017 21:42

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Jaded Burnout posted:

Well, it vacillates constantly between very interesting and tremendously boring. When issues of the Harvard Law Review from the 1800s are the most modern documents you've read all week by half a millennium, you know you're in for a fun ride.

Huh, I guess there are benefits to my legal system being 25 years old after all

# ¿ Oct 21, 2017 22:09

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

Thank gently caress I don't have to do anything criminal

# ¿ Nov 2, 2017 16:22

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# ¿ May 6, 2024 22:22

nutri_void: Apr 18, 2015; I shall devour your soul.; Grimey Drawer

disjoe posted:

I remember reading a pretty interesting article like a year ago that discussed how incompatible the concept of personal jurisdiction is with the internet.

It was pretty interesting because it was basically like there�s no good answer and we need a new doctrine on the level of International Shoe

This is already what doing anything internet-related in a civil law jurisdiciton is like
It's awful and I'm glad I deal with old-school physical things that are sold, bought, lost, broken etc.

There's a local biglaw superstar who manages to openly be a colossal geek and the guy seriously spent some time trying to figure out how and what law should apply to Diablo 3 gold back in the RMAH era. And to the items. The attemtps were in vain, but the exercise was somewhat fun

nutri_void fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Nov 4, 2017

# ¿ Nov 4, 2017 18:01

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > Lawyer & Law School Megathread #12: Started Out Barrister, Ended Up Barista

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