Ask me about industrial electricity 2: electric boogaloo

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about industrial electricity 2: electric boogaloo

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

KaiserBen posted:

Edit: I've been thinking about doing an "ask me about working in a steel mill" thread, if anyone has any interest? Work has me pretty busy right now (12hr x 6 days), but I figured I'd ask.

I spend a surprising amount of time around steel mill, and I never got farther than "coal and iron ore go in, steel comes out", so yeah, I'd be interested.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2011 21:07

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# ¿ May 6, 2024 21:40

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydro-Qu%C3%A9bec%27s_electricity_transmission_system) it's AC, but I thought it was DC until I checked, so... I don't know poo poo. (Turns out the DC like is a 450 kV line going to New England; the more you know.)

# ¿ Apr 21, 2012 23:59

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Three-Phase posted:

I want a 1MV DC cross-continent tie from the west coast to the east coast, as well as a connection to Quebec hydro's grid.

Probably gonna need some more dams...

# ¿ Jul 15, 2012 04:09

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Wait, isn't 20A at 120v what my house runs on?

Cause I've reset those mofos barefoot a few times. :ohdear:

# ¿ Aug 5, 2012 01:45

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

schmuckfeatures posted:

Can you tell me what the hell happens in this video? It looks like they're trying to disconnect a breaker which arcs to earth, right? Shame about the quality, but it sounds pants-shittingly terrifying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IageMUi0G80

Christ, that electricity is angry :stare:

What the gently caress happened?

# ¿ Nov 4, 2012 17:40

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Three-Phase posted:

Well, he's definitely trying to open some kind of isolator, it looks like, judging by the crank he's turning.

So he was trying to cut off power to that power line, and for some reason the electricity just went "gently caress NO :black101:

"?

That's something that happens? gently caress this poo poo I'm getting candles.

# ¿ Nov 4, 2012 21:29

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

So this came up in the Bitcoin thread in GBS, I thought it was topical and should be cross-posted here:

TheColorBlue posted:

What is the likelihood that this monstrosity manifested out of buttcoin mining?

NOTE: This is a BIG image thus it may break tables once enlarged.

This is apparently a place of business, so... Can anybody here explain why, exactly, someone would want to cool down their breaker panel?

Edit: Woops, sorry.

FrozenVent fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jan 7, 2013

# ¿ Jan 7, 2013 21:01

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Wait, H2 as in hydrogen?

Isn't that kind of... Flammable?

# ¿ Apr 26, 2013 04:07

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

longview posted:

I figure this is the place to ask: anyone know when the Carnival poo poo Cruises accident report will be published? I'm curious to read about what happened to the electrical system there.

These usually take at least a year; Costa Concordia's just got published last week. (And that was with the entire international maritime community pressuring the poo poo out of Italy to hurry up; there isn't that level of interest over the Triumph since nobody died.)

# ¿ May 31, 2013 01:34

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Two Finger posted:

I think we discussed this earlier in the thread with my thoughts on it as a marine engineer? I'll see if I can dig up the posts.

Here's my post:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3533525&userid=122000#post412639555

Did you see the electrical parts of the Concordia report? Some weird stuff about the interlock between the main switchboard and the emergency not tripping correctly... But the main blackout had a pretty straightforward cause.

The drat generators were under water.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2013 00:58

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Two Finger posted:

I haven't read it yet. It's on my to do list.

Relevant extracts below. Between the wonky English and, well, the electrical stuff, I can't understand jack poo poo. I just bolded the parts that seemed :stare:

quote:

4.9 Emergency Diesel Generator functionality.
The ship suffered an immediate shock because of the shut down due to "short chain in" triggered by the violent entry of water in uncontrollable quantities, that in less than a minute affected the stern DG Room (WC nr. 6, where are installed the three main Generators) and the PEM room (WC nr.5). The black out, in fact, is recorded after 51 secs by the contact .

In PEM room (lower part and intermediate) are located large transformers, while in its upper part there is the electrical panel of the distribution (at the level of the Bridge A). Adjacently, therefore always at the top (at the level of the bridge A) of the stern DG room (WC nr. 6), insists the electrical distribution (or rather the double panel), to SB fed by the DG group nr 3,5,6 and at left side by the Group nr. 1,2,4.

The consequences of violent water entry had irreversible effects, and therefore the ship lost propulsion immediately, and all government services.

The immediate and practical of the two protections [cross connections / isolations between the main electric panel (or rather the two panels) and the Emergency one, the so told switches nr 902 and 905], which just link the main electrical panel (QEP) with the emergency panel (limited to users in 220 and 440 Volts supplied by that system), prevented, as designed, the transmission of serious and widespread short-circuit to the emergency electricity network (therefore intervened automatic opening of the switches nr. 902 or 905, or both).

It should be noted that the plant is built and ready - always in stand by - and then once the motor of the emergency DG (DGE) starts, when there is no power from the mains, happens the link automatically between the fore mentioned DG and the Electrical Emergency panel connected (QEE), except that there are no protections for short circuit on the emergency power network, consent is given by a large thermo switch (marked by 'numeric identifier no. 901, and equipped with hand-wound spring always triggered).

It is assumed that the Electrician Officer didn't provide any details on the latest, positive load tests of the DGE, that regularly took place in Barcelona on January the 10th.

The testimonies of the crew in charge (1st Engineer, Officer Electrical engineering, and Electrical Officer), all matching, have so far allowed us to determine the alternate operation of that emergency plant, either for part of the electric panel, but also for the mechanics of DGE (but it is unclear if they have found on their arrival in the DGE room the emergency power grid already connected).
It was necessary, however, the intervention of Electric Officer for engaging (or reengaging) manually switch 901.

When we consider that, already at 21 52 32 (after seven minutes by the impact) the Chief Engineer says Officer Electric to start the DGE, it is likely that there wasn't an automatic start of the system (would leave only the engine of DGE), and this is probable considered the immediate blackout (21 46 44) and the violence of the water on the system of production and distribution of electricity and the consequent shorts circuits simultaneously interested by an extraordinary shock (overprotecting also the emergency part of the QEE). We will show that this consideration is correct in the following paragraphs, were we give a proof about what happened really on board..

In this regard it should be noted that the primary switches powered either by the QEP and the QEE, are switched on the emergency network through individual switches located in Local DGE on QEE. Obviously, some of these switches, supplying services / facilities among those hit by the water violently, they would have disconnected in group isolating the respectively short-circuited lines . According to this logic of violent release, the shock switch nr. 901 would be so disruptive to lock / protect it at the end, although the lines remained attached to the QEE were not those short-circuited. This is demonstrated by the results of the DGE / QEE engagement / link in manual mode (or, as it is better to say, in forced manner), which proves, however, the isolation of the short circuit, otherwise the QEE would have blown electrocuting people therein.

The QEE was engaged at 22 10 52, after the arrival of the Electrician officer in DGE room. The Electrician, immediately identified the problem, gave manual winding with the handle to the spring of the switch 901, and then, noting that the system did not allow in any case the engagement of the DGE to the related electrical network, has employed a screwdriver with which, relying on the blades of mechanical interconnection inside the switch, caused the connection and engagement (hang up) of the EDG to the emergency power grid .
The operation, says the Electrician Officer, was repeated three times, and that is when the DGE stopped, it was arrested for excessive water temperature (110 C�) of the cooling circuit, due to the locking of the corresponding fan on the alternator group . The 1st Engine Officer has done every time you restart the DGE and Electrical Officer consequently after charging manually the spring, worked to manually engage (with tool) switch nr 901..

Finally, the Official Electric arranged to make a sort of chock with a cloth to avoid standing still with his hand on the screwdriver blocking the connection of the switch 901, thus stopping into the slot the screwdriver itself..

According the testimonies of the three crew members which intervened in DGE room, it appears that this activity of precarious operation, which began at 22 11 (when DGE hangs up - or snaps for the first time, still do not know), it lasted up to 22 55 when the ship continued to list more and more to starboard, after the abandon ship signal , they also had to leave the place of destination. The 1st Engineer also, before leaving the room, said he had turned off the EDG to prevent that the excessive engine temperature degenerate into a fire that nobody could then control.

quote:

The emergency generator started but supplied power for just 41 seconds.

The 1st Electronic Officer, the 1st Electrician7 and the 1st Mate witnesses are quite significant; according to these declarations we may evince that the emergency diesel generator was not able to perform the designed service notwithstanding the crew efforts to guarantee its working.

The emergency diesel generator should have supplied power, among the others, to the emergency bilge pump (YA-412) and to one of the "Heeling system" pump (YA/409A).

Due to the black-out and the emergency diesel generator failure to supply power, the UPS batteries intervened guaranteeing the internal communication means and the emergency lighting.

The Electrician and the Electronic Officer went to the Deck 11, into the emergency diesel generator room where there is also the emergency electric switchboard, verified that the emergency diesel generator was running but the main breaker was disconnected.

The emergency diesel generator was connected using a screwdriver that had to be manually kept into the switch so as to guarantee the electrical connection.

Once the problem was partially solved another fault occurred involving the emergency diesel generator cooling system and the intervention of the engine alarms (high temperature) and its automatic shut-down too.

The engine safety alarms were therefore switched off by the crew and, in order to avoid worse consequences (fire/explosion), the engine had to be periodically stopped to cool it down.

Due to the above, the emergency diesel generator was not able to regularly supply electrical power to the lines.

Full report: http://gcaptain.com/full-costa-concordia-investigation/ The part I quoted starts on page 132. There's pictures and diagrams.

Edit: Is this a derail that should go in the boat thread?

# ¿ Jun 29, 2013 01:38

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Frozen Horse posted:

If the circuit behind the switch is also on a sinking ship, one may as well keep the emergency bilge pumps, etc. on until its "Last one out, take your screwdriver with you."

The bilge pump (or is it fire pump? Both?) isn't protected by a circuit breaker because well, gently caress it and get damaged but don't stop. If I'm reading right, the switch in question was the one that isolated the emergency switchboard from the main (the main will feed the emergency in normal operation, you do not want the reverse to happen because there's no way the emergency generator can take it.)

But then again, that report is really hard to read, even the parts in my area of expertise.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2013 23:56

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Three-Phase posted:

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to test cranes every once in awhile to reduce the chance of this sort of thing happening.

Yeah, in the maritime industry it's a big inspection and load test every five years, visual inspection every months and a few other periodic things.

That looks like a mechanical failure, from the way the fall spooled on top of the load without pieces of the crane coming down too. Could have been a mega hydraulic leak, a power and brake failure or a few other things.

This is why you never ever walk under loads, people.

Also ouch, my wallet. Wonder if anyone got sued.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2013 05:02

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Noctone posted:

25kV cables ... data center... confidentiality agreement.

Insert NSA joke here.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2013 20:21

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Exploding Barrel posted:

So I was goofing off on google maps when I found this : http://goo.gl/maps/4GyiQ
I've never seen a power plant that small or set up like that so I was hoping someone in this thread had any info on an installation like this.

That's indeed really small, and I don't see any lines heading out :tinfoil:

# ¿ Aug 19, 2013 02:10

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Every time I hear anything about liberty ships, it's :stare:

in nautical form.

I guess that's what happen when you design something quickly with the only consideration being how quickly they could be mass produced.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2013 03:16

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

grover posted:

Real answer? Depends who's watching.

Nobody suits up to reset a 20A breaker, ever, though. Don't know why that poo poo's even on the books.

The problem with that kind of stuff though is that it creates an environment where it's "ok" to bypass procedure when they're not, in the opinion of the worker, justified. It attacks the credibility of the procedure or safety management plan, if you will, and it's how you end up with people smoking under No Smoking signs, working cranes without a hard hat or going down a 50 ft ladder without an arrestor because "I'll just be down there a minute".

It's lazy corporate safety management ("Oh, let's just blanket require everyone to wear all the PPE, all the time!"), and it's a terrible practice.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2013 14:08

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

kastein posted:

Worth noting is that the copper pipes in grover's pic are probably the conductors - skin effect uber alles!

Large-ish radar sets have waveguides between the magnetron and the antenna - basically a copper pipe. Is this what we're looking at? (Although I'm not sure I can reconcile waveguides with omnidirectional antennas, but I just use the drat things, so :shrug:

)

# ¿ Nov 22, 2013 19:50

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

kastein posted:

Holy poo poo, 164800 foot pounds of torque. That is 31.2 mile pounds.

Maximum power: 108,920 hp at 102 rpm
Maximum torque: 5,608,312 lb/ft at 102rpm

Two stroke engines are big.

# ¿ Nov 29, 2013 18:45

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Supersonic posted:

In Quebec, we usually get help from various companies in the NE United States when things go down because we sell some of our power to the region (this happened extensively during the Ice Storm of '98, I remember seeing tons of American plated trucks). I believe one of the stipulations of the contracts is that these consumers have priority over our local market, so in the event of a failure we must first re-establish transmission to the states, so these companies helping us also helps them.

We have mutual assistance agreement in place with those companies; when the going gets bad in Vermont or something our trucks will go down there to help.

I highly doubt that Hydro, a corporation owned by the government of Quebec, has agreements in place that prioritize US customers over Quebec customers. I could be wrong, but I would be very surprised if it were the case.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2013 18:52

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

edit: beaten

FrozenVent fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Dec 23, 2013

# ¿ Dec 23, 2013 19:37

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Groda posted:

It's a U.S. Customary unit: 1 kilowatt x 1 hour = 1 kilo-watt

So you're saying a kilowatt is a kilowatt / hour?

# ¿ Dec 23, 2013 20:38

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

angryrobots posted:

High voltage transmission lines are usually not as affected because they usually have much wider right-of-way, but they hit the dirt sometimes too. Everything in line work is temporary.

January 1998, never forget :quebec:

# ¿ Sep 11, 2014 01:20

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Three-Phase posted:

As far as that bilge transformer goes you can buy an IP67 or IP68 or NEMA6 rated box to put it in. Those are rated for temporary submersion of the box.

The conduit needs to be sealed and watertight and you also need to be very careful since the transformer could overheat easily in a watertight box.

It's on a ship so it needs to be approved by class, flag, and a whole whack of poo poo.

Basically five or ten times the price of the regular stuff.

# ¿ Dec 26, 2016 21:49

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

Also what decade was this in that your electrical system and your tv we're both lovely enough for that to happen?

The last time I saw a tv experience interference from a local source, the antenna was ridiculously close to a ridiculously powerful shortwave transmitter.

# ¿ Dec 30, 2016 02:31

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# ¿ May 6, 2024 21:40

FrozenVent: May 1, 2009; The Boeing 737-200QC is the undisputed workhorse of the skies.

kastein posted:

Speaking of arcing, a friend of mine on IRC just linked some pictures... the title was "thieves aren't engineers".

WARNING: THERE ARE VERY DEAD PEOPLE IN THESE PICTURES - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. That's what happens when you try to steal a live high voltage line for scrap.
http://imgur.com/a/AUeZr

Crispy!

# ¿ Jan 8, 2017 17:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Ask me about industrial electricity 2: electric boogaloo