China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > China Megathread - Their navy can be taken seriously or taken littorally

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Cpt_Obvious posted:

That's fair. But I think it's also fair to realize their own claim that they are part of the mainland government.

At this point, Taiwan has to hold on to that stupid charade because they otherwise face the consequences of declaring independence. Taiwan is already a pariah nation that is tolerated because of its economic productivity and its "one China" shenanigans. The state of affairs would get even worse if they tried to get the world to acknowledge them as a separate country because you just play deeper into the PRC's "renegade province" narrative.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2021 20:08

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 07:05

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

How are u posted:

I think calling Taiwan a "pariah state" is a bit much. That's what people call North Korea, Afghanistan under the Taliban in the 90s, the Burmese military junta, etc.

Clarste posted:

According to wikipedia, the proper term is "rump state".

Fair point. I just feel that only have formal diplomatic relations with 15 states and having to rely on unofficial channels for dealing with most of the rest of the world is not a great state of affairs and it sadly only gets worse if Taiwan tries to get the world to acknowledge reality.

And not to get pedantic, but I think more states have formal diplomatic relations with North Korea or Burma than they do with Taiwan.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2021 20:46

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Tei posted:

I don't know much bout the topic. But heres a cool map.

Decades of one party KMT dictatorship led to a lot of dumb stuff.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2021 21:22

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

The US will talk a a big game, but ultimately, it will never go to war or risk a single US soldier's life for Taiwan.

As a Taiwanese-American, I am sad to type that out, but the idea that the US will be there to protect Taiwanese people beyond some showboat military exercises during peacetime and maybe some sanctions after the fact is a neoconservative power fantasy.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2021 16:18

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

LimburgLimbo posted:

Yeah I mean if there�s one thing America hates it�s a chance to use its expensive weapons.

They want to use expensive weapons to protect things they care about (like the stability of the world's oil market) with a minimum of military casualties against enemies who cannot fight back on equal terms from a conventional warfare standpoint. No scenario for fighting to protect Taiwan matches that set of criteria.

# ¿ Oct 12, 2021 18:45

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

From what I remember, the Epoch Times is also free, so you're very likely dealing with a non-discriminating audience who aren't going to care much if your paper isn't 100% reliable.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2022 17:32

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

DeadlyMuffin posted:

The US didn�t invent misogyny. I�m not sure why you�d jump to this being an American export.

Sexism and misogyny? In Chinese culture?!?!

What's next? High demands for filial piety?

# ¿ Mar 7, 2022 16:41

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Alchenar posted:

What's the deal with the vaccination programme? Are they still in the rollout phase or are they in the 'everyone has had the opportunity to have one, the issue is uptake' phase?

The vaccination rates I've seen are pretty high, but they primarily used the Sinovac vaccine and there's a major difference in effectiveness between that and the mRNA vaccines we use in the US.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2022 20:22

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

That doesn't quite match what I've been reading, but I'm more than open to seeing sources outside what I usually get exposed to.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-20/hk-s-immunized-who-died-of-covid-mainly-got-sinovac-ming-pao

EDIT: I think this is what you are talking about there being a good boost from a third Sinovac booster shot, but the percentages of elderly people who have gotten 2 shots, let alone 3 are all too low.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/health/sinovac-coronavirus-booster-hong-kong.html

quote:

More than 87 percent of China�s population has been vaccinated. But just over half of people 80 and older have had two shots, and less than 20 percent of people in that age group have received a booster, Zeng Yixin, a vice minister of the National Health Commission, said recently.

Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Mar 25, 2022

# ¿ Mar 25, 2022 21:19

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

SlothfulCobra posted:

It is bad for the world for the world's second largest economy to shackle itself to the eleventh largest (or was last year) over their mutual disrespect for human rights and their distaste for independent neighbors.

And it won't work to China's advantage to unleash a bunch of ridiculous brainworms onto its populace and bind itself to the fate of a failing regional power at its nadir.

Have Russians started turning into helpful allies in Chinese popular entertainment yet? Like, the Chinese movie hero has a Russian best bro or sexy Russian love interest? That's when I know it will have really taken root.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2022 17:51

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:

I'm asking this honestly and don't mean to offend at all please give me clarity:

I've heard as a slightly racist phrase that Chinese people are far more virulently racist than most people.

Is this true in any reality or is it just a "whites aren't the only racists" downplay that actual frothing racists like to proclaim when challenged

My reflexive wisecrack is that China has been calling itself the Middle Kingdom for centuries, and that tends to reflect a certain level of heightened racism.

That being said, I have come across multiple people I knew questioned why we required police to read "Miranda rights" to people under arrest since "those people (i.e., racial minorities) don't matter." They were all from Mainland China. I'm sure a big part of that comes from being browbeaten with authoritarian propaganda since birth, but I've found that there's quite a strong strain of racial supremacy under all that too.

As MikeC and Oracle said, people are all rotten. I don't think any of the racist Chinese people I know are that much worse than the racist white people or racist black people I've come across since they all end up at the same stupid end behavioral endpoint.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2022 14:30

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

mawarannahr posted:

At the risk of a derail could you tell us more about racist black people you�ve encountered?

"Penny-pinching, evil Chinese/Koreans/Jews/Whites who can never be trusted..."

And I've come across some black people who will say horrific stuff about other black people and proudly talk about how they don't "fit in."

I don't think my experience is that weird, but you're welcome to disagree.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2022 22:01

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

ronya posted:

Today China hesitates to confront Taiwan too aggressively as the domestic conventional wisdom is that 1996 backfired and instead confirmed Lee Teng-Hui's localization drive through a landslide electoral victory

A blockade is unnecessary: the Taiwanese economy is itself enormously exposed to China. China can harass Taiwanese agricultural exports at present because it knows that farmers are a key swing electoral constituency, but this is a peacetime tactic. To really escalate a national crisis for Taipei, instead China could just completely obliterate Taiwanese industrial exports to China (drawing instead from, e.g., South Korea). It could ban China Airlines from its airspace and Taiwan-bound ships from its ports. It could annex Kinmen at its discretion at pretty much any time.

Beijing today possesses many options short of a wholesale invasion of Taiwan island that it does not use on Taiwan for fear of completely losing the possibility of an acquiescent (if grudging) reunification, like Hong Kong

Conversely Taiwan - being democratic - is in no position to coldly render, on rational strategic calculation, the really critical decision that would decide its fate: does it want to be Taiwanese, if it meant risking really significant costs in blood and treasure? The Taiwan electorate will decide that, and Beijing may do something so carelessly repellent that it may drive voters to do so even if it is not rational (to use that favourite word)

If China hadn't been as amazingly draconian with Hong Kong as it has been, the DPP would already be toast for all of these reasons and Taiwan would be dominated by reunification-sympathetic parties. Most Taiwanese people view their economic prospects as being inextricably linked to China whether they like it or not.

The PRC in the long term has all the economic ammunition it needs to make reunification an inevitability as long as they remain competent in using their soft power.

# ¿ May 26, 2022 20:38

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

https://twitter.com/TelegraphWorld/status/1536979655890243584

I can't help but feel this is just sensationalistic journalism, but I'm submitting it to the thread hivemind here to see if I'm overlooking something.

# ¿ Jun 15, 2022 14:39

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Is Nancy Pelosi really going to Taiwan? I�ve been craving niu rou mian for a while, so I�m really jealous.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2022 03:51

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Red and Black posted:

Polls have repeatedly shown that most Taiwanese are not in favor of reunification or independence. They just want the status quo to continue. So assuming they understand the significance of Pelosi�s visit wrt to upsetting the status quo my guess would be the taiwanese people are opposed

I think you have to buy into the idea that the visit goes against the status quo and I don�t think it does. My family there seems to be okay with it.

I would like to see a real poll of Taiwanese people on this front.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2022 17:25

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Tomn posted:

Well yeah, but I thought it was still at the level of cold stiffness and jockeying for diplomatic influence in SE Asia, not active economic hostility (Trump didn't really count in my mind because, well, Trump).

As much as we'd probably like to, we don't get to undo 2016-2020 and whatever legacy came from those years.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2022 17:18

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

url posted:

Here's a question/topic I haven't seen a great deal of discussion on, but the past couple for days gave me pause for thought because I haven't been able to decipher how to think on it as yet.

An unusual point was made during Xi's speech which i thought odd.
He stated the the PLA was the Party's Army.

That stuck me as odd because it demotes the actual Nation State.
It therefore puts allegiance to the Party above the Nation (under the threat of their having the monopoly of coercive force).

For instance, does this mean that he can declare the Nation State of China dead, and that China is now a Party State.
As such, if you are not a member of the Party you are not a member of China.
That would then apply to those abroad.

It would give them an entirely different 'mandate' to govern without some of the more traditional roles and responsibilities of a government.

I'm not sure if I am over-reading it, nor am I sure if supplanting the State has been tried before in this fashion.

(E: added/re-arranged)

droll posted:

Isn't the vanguard party meant to be the proletariat, the most revolutionary and educated in Marxism, they ensure the dictatorship of the proletariat prevails and fight to stop the reinstatement of the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. Therefore the people's army under the dictatorship of the proletariat via the workers party is the party's army? Meh.

Do people really believe the CCP cares that much about ideological consistency or the party/state distinction ? They have to keep some grounding in Marxist/Lenninist/Maoist thought for window dressing, but the CCP left that path to true communism (as people in the past envisioned it) a long time ago. I don't think Xi and his backers care about what you think their government is as long as the CCP is the only party in charge and the CCP is internally stable and the country itself is stable.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2022 16:27

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

No. I'm just wondering why you guys were digging into it. I don't think it indicates any new direction in how the CCP views itself or governs.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2022 20:32

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

ronya posted:

KMT candidate Hou Yu-ih weighs forth: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/taiwan/taiwans-path-between-extremes:

The "three Ds" seem to be the main novelty. In particular it seems to imply the "fortress Taiwan" strategy of asymmetric equipment options being inherently de-escalatory

I can't help but feel that overall Beijing must feel more and more unhappy about the KMT having to increasingly burnish its anti-annexation, pro-democratic credentials to maintain relevance

If the PRC hadn't acted so harshly in Hong Kong, the KMT wouldn't be in this position in the first place. The PRC could have let soft power, international isolation and economic inevitability run its course. Showing so transparently what "two systems, one country" really meant was a wake up call for a lot of Taiwanese people who were otherwise resigned to having to become part of the People's Republic of China in the future to maintain the island's economic relevance and standard of living.

KillHour posted:

I don't know if that's just politics being politics, but that statement completely contradicts itself several times. Is that just understood by everyone involved to be dog whistling or what?

This has been the life of Taiwanese people since 1979, if not earlier. Everyone knows there are unresolved contradictions that do not reflect the reality of the situation, but no one can fix them without a war that no one is crazy enough (for right now) to wage.

Morrow posted:

Part of the issue is that none of the factions involved can really state what they want in clear terms: crudely speaking, the KMT wants to negotiate rejoining China with extensive privileges on par with Hong Kong (and their position has taken an obvious hit since Hong Kong was suppressed) while the DPP wants to be an independent country (but can't campaign on that without China throwing a tantrum). In the meantime both advocate for variations of the status quo that advance their preferred outcome. Right now, that consistently means deterring a Chinese invasion.

KMT's position isn't contradictory when you consider they want closer relations with China, and eventual reunification, but with a lot of chips at the bargaining table so that they aren't just swallowed up. Having the US and Japan guarantee their special status, which the UK technically was supposed to do for HK, is part of that.

Also, given how the KMT had to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing free elections, I'm sure the KMT would be totally okay becoming the local puppet self-governance veneer to legitimize Mainland Chinese control (akin to what has ended up happening in Hong Kong).

Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Sep 18, 2023

# ¿ Sep 18, 2023 16:04

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

GoutPatrol posted:

Just call them GMD, that'll work.

Does the KMT roll with pinyin? It was my understanding that Taiwan is still saddled with Wade-Giles Romanization.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2023 20:40

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

SlothfulCobra posted:

It would take a whole lot of steps to decouple the Chinese and American economies, and Biden may have taken one, but there's be plenty more that aren't going to be taken any time soon (and I don't think it's especially likely that we'll try going much further in that direction unless other factors ratchet up tensions). Although as the Chinese economy just generally slows down, or just stops accelerating, that will naturally decrease the amount of investment into it.

Complicating matters, there is right now a lot of manufacturing being moved from China to Mexico, but a lot of it is being done by Chinese companies instead of American companies giving up on China. I'm really not sure what that would mean in the event of a hypothetical decoupling between America and China.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/03/business/china-mexico-trade.html

I would imagine that it makes it even harder to decouple theoretically. If Mexico's manufacturing capacity is Chinese-dominated, that helps close off Mexico as an alternative outsourcing destination that does not ultimately benefit China.

# ¿ Nov 6, 2023 15:20

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Stringent posted:

I don't have any figures to prove it, but I'd be willing to bet the average wealth and standard of living in Shanghai, Shenzhen, etc. meets or exceeds the standards in Taipai, and probably a lot of Western cities as well. That's the problem with comparing Taiwan and China, China's a little bigger than Taiwan.

I don't know the hard economic stats, but I've visited all of those places. In terms of standards of living looked at through a Western lens, I bet most westerners would find Taipei to be more appealing than Shenzhen. It's way less polluted. It's got a vibrant cultural scene. Whether you can really enjoy Shanghai depends a lot on how rich you are.

Anyway... Taiwan seems to score pretty high worldwide from a quality of life viewpoint.

https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2022/taiwan-40269#:~:text=Taiwan%20does%20best%20in%20the,10%20for%20many%20related%20factors.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2024 17:58

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 07:05

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Another thing I've wondered about is that Taiwan has a pretty extensive social benefit and healthcare system and Taiwanese people are very much attached to their benefits. I don't know if the equivalent has been set up in the PRC.

https://joinhorizons.com/countries/taiwan/hiring-employees/employee-benefits/
https://joinhorizons.com/countries/...l%20citizens%3B

I'm sure someone here will chime in about a biased source, but it seems like the PRC might be leaning to a more austere approach, if anything. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/24/business/china-economy-safety-net.html

If the PRC took over and started dismantling that system, there'd definitely be discontent.

# ¿ Jan 16, 2024 19:08

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