politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Cold Fusion posted:

How can Uruguay be so pale, it's got the largest beef consumption per capita in the world

Yeah, beef consumption alone looks to be higher than the total on the map, and that's before you add everything else. It should be one of the meatiest countries really, unless it has been climbing the ladder really quickly since 2009.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2013 16:34

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# ¿ May 18, 2024 03:16

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redscare posted:

They had to pick one thing.

I would have gone with simply "the worst"

Are we even certain Florida is the worst at everything? Maybe it's just the runner up across the board (identity theft exluded), while everyone else specialize in specific things?

# ¿ Jul 9, 2013 16:47

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khwarezm posted:

How are Lithuania, Belarus and the Ukraine able to produce so much coffee? I thought it was vulnerable to frosts or something.

Pretty sure they don't grow any, so if that map is accurate then it's some weird technicality, like Spanish olives being turned into olive oil in Italy, and thus becoming Italian olive oil. The countries that actually grow coffee are all hot as hell.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2013 16:00

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DarkCrawler posted:

...so, just floating the idea of something like this would pretty much be taken as a casus belli for a first nuclear strike in Britain, right?

I doubt anyone would object to a British nuclear first strike, considering it would be on England in this case.

(The illustration is really Anglo-centric, and I would not be surprised if the people behind this idea figured the English should get most that.)

Bishop Rodan posted:

I really find it interesting to see what China thought of the West in the time before the Age of Discovery and trade routes being established. I mean, in the West you always hear what the West thought of China, for obvious reasons, but you never really hear the opposite. Of course, I can't read Chinese, so unless there are some translated sources there's no way I'd know anyway.

The funny thing is, these ideas were basically mirrored by some people in the West some centuries later. The obvious explanation of course being that they were basically made up as a safe way to criticize the system by telling tales of a magical wonderland where everything was somehow exactly what the author wanted. Something we of course still see today, despite there being a wealth of information around to disabuse people of their strange notions.

# ¿ Aug 1, 2013 21:11

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Purno posted:

Kinda surprised to see Eastern Europe so relatively unpolluted, I would've expected at least big cities like Kiev and Minsk to be redder.

I also found a similar map of the whole world:

China

To be fair, at least 350 million people live in that dark region around Beijing.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2013 20:46

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Davincie posted:

What's the racial controversy about Ancient Egypt? Greeks versus indigenous or what?

See, that would be an ethnic controversy. The racial controversy is about Upper Egypt being inhabited by Nubians, who are dark skinned, and Lower Egypt being inhabited by lighter skinned people, and the question of where the source of the Ancient Egyptian civilization is. At least that's my understanding. I get why African-Americans would want the source to be black African though, given the prevailing narrative of black Africa just being a bunch of savages in loincloths until Europeans showed up in the 19th century, but it only really become a big deal within the context of a society that makes such a big deal about skin color.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2013 19:23

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Koramei posted:

And there also were actually lots of really developed African civilizations so I wish people'd try to refute it by bringing up those instead more often or something.

Absolutely. You don't have to leave the realm of well-established facts to support the idea of Africa being home to cultures and states that deserve a place in history.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2013 20:05

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Koramei posted:

Did the Islamic conquests have that profound an effect on the other middle eastern populations? I always thought Arab was more of a race than an ethnicity. I dunno, maybe I'm wrong on that. But I know that the conquests didn't have that profound an effect on Egypt. Modern Egyptians aren't identical genetically to their ancient counterparts, but they're similar enough that you can call them the same people.

My immediate guess would be that the Arab conquests had a similar effect as the Turkic conquest of Anatolia, and the Hungarian one on what would become Hungary. The modern day Turks and Hungarians are basically 90% the pre-conquest population genetically, with a small genetic influence from the conquerors, but linguistically they both managed to convert the native population. As Phlegmish points out, it seems pretty drat unlikely that a semi-nomadic tribal society would be able to genetically dominate such densely populated societies.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2013 20:33

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Rincewind posted:

Is Ireland the only existing country to actually gain territory on that map?

Austria gains a bit as well.

E: Hungary might have gained a few bits as well, though they're less obvious than Tirol.

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 4, 2013

# ¿ Oct 4, 2013 20:35

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Vivian Darkbloom posted:

I think everyone recognizes that those map regions don't necessarily represent coherent nations today, and the map cops out by referring vaguely to "historical regions". But the representation of these nations runs from nation-states (recognized EU members), protected cultural regions, regular provinces or territories (like Moravia, below), all the way to historical places like Sorbia (usually called Lusatia) which have not had political status for a long time if ever. Maybe that Eurominority map would be a map of nation-states today if the late 18th century had gone pretty differently?

Scandinavians began colonizing the area in the Middle Ages, and given that the Sami only represent 4-5% of the population in the area in the present, I really doubt the 18th century is early enough.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2013 08:48

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I wanted to illustrate the silliness of that 'Europe of nations' map, specifically the idea that a Sami state would be viable as a Sami state within those borders, but I may have gone a bit overboard. I basically took the states with the highest proportion of Native Americans, added most of Canada, then cut out the bits that had far too many non-Native Americans until Native Americans made up as big a proportion of the total population as the Sami do in that Sami state. (5) Following that, I carved out a few smaller Native American states, (2,10,15,18,19,25,26), as well as of course Hawaii, using the same principles.

Then I figured I might as well add some African-American homelands, so I took all the African-American majority counties, plus a few with just a significant majority to make the states more viable, creating a few small African-American states. (9,17,21,23). Qu�bec got a similar treatment, and then I split the current US up a bit since otherwise those other new states looked really out of place.

I have a sneaking suspicion that you would have a really hard time getting this to work, even if a few of the states might be perfectly happy with the situation.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2013 17:01

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Kurtofan posted:

No Cascadia?

Cascadia doesn't have much to do with giving back a sensible plot of land to the native inhabitants of the continent, does it? :colbert:

oldswitcheroo posted:

Yeah putting most of Mississippi in the Republic of New Afrika would probably be a recipe for disaster in the backwoods; although it would achieve a longtime ambition of the Mayor of one of your proposed RNA's major cities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokwe_Lumumba)

Isn't the area already pretty much a disaster? Not that I expect doing this to help. I kinda wonder what exactly they had planned there. Cutting out a majority African-American state is one thing, but from the description on Wikipedia it seems like the plan was to take Louisiana, Missisippi, Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina, as well as any black-majority counties in the neighboring states, and make it an African-American-majority country. That's a lot of white people that have to be kicked out.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2013 17:46

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oldswitcheroo posted:

Some areas are normal suburban sprawl type strip mall places that you'll see everywhere. The bulk of RNA is the Delta which yeah is insanely impoverished. I'm just imagining the reactions when you tell East MS that they're part of a black country now. That would confirm every single fear most of them have ever had.

Republic of New Afrika, love it or leave it.

oldswitcheroo posted:

I've never been clear what the exact goals of RNA were, but I from what I understand it involved a particular interpretation of the "forty acres and a mule" thing. Sort of like "if we all get 40 acres and there are this many of us we should get X amount of land and lets just put it all here."

That makes a certain amount sense, even if you kinda need a guy like Stalin to pull it off.

Lawman 0 posted:

Its one thing to propose an independent native american homeland but its quite another to balkanize north america and heighten the chances of nukes flying.

Aren't most of the nukes in the First Nation Confederacy? It's gonna be fine. :v:

sbaldrick posted:

This isn't completely true. Hungary is pretty much the last example of a major tribal migration/displacement, with the Maygars forcing out the Avar's completely (they migrated to Austria and Croatia). The small remaining preexisting population became a special class in the country in charge of guarding the board.

Hungary is weird.

When you say the Magyars forced out the Avars, are you working from the assumption that the area was solely populated by Avars? I was of the impression that the Avars had, just like many other tribes in Europe, positioned themselves as the ruling class on top of a mixed population of who-knows-what. Then when the Avars were kicked out, the Magyars just took their place, and eventually assimilated the various peoples that lived in the region.

Fake edit: I think I found the source where I got the idea in the first place, but it has an additional hypothesis for the high levels of European genetic material in the Hungarian population; that the invading Magyars had already intermixed with European populations to the east before they settled in Hungary. That explanation does make sense as well, and would allow a more steady process of assimilation than the other one.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v8/n5/pdf/5200468a.pdf

# ¿ Oct 6, 2013 20:04

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the jizz taxi posted:

I might as well ask here: why has Czech culture and language remained such a persistent island when it's been constantly surrounded and influenced by the (much bigger and traditionally more influential) German culture and language?

Not a historian, but I would guess it has something to do with being quite densely populated and rich historically, having a strong sense of being distinct from the Germans (Having a special status within the HRE, the whole Hussite thing and so on), and being mostly located between highlands/mountain chains. And even then, by 1938, Germans had encroached upon large parts of the territory, though this was obviously reversed following their defeat in WW2.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2013 09:59

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steinrokkan posted:

German settlers didn't really encroach on anything, they had been invited to colonize the inhospitable borderlands, and first waves of organized German colonization occurred during the High Middle Ages. That doesn't mean there wasn't a huge amount of tensions between the Czechs and Germans of Bohemia throughout the history.

Invited by who? I assume the Czech nobility, which could make one question the legitimacy of the invitation in the first place. The other events you describe also seem to fit the word well enough to me, even if it's not straight up American-style swamping of the local population.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2013 13:25

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steinrokkan posted:

By the king.

Also, I should stress that there was a difference between ordinary German settlers who just peacefully lived in their villages and towns, and aristocracy, clergy & bureaucracy that replaced the original owners of feudal titles. The former don't deserve to be shunned, it's the latter who intended to make themselves and their kin into a new ruling class.

Absolutely, I was just speaking in terms of the Czech-German linguistic/cultural border, though I guess the use of the word encroachment might have unfairly painted the early German settlers with the same brush as the later German nobility.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2013 13:49

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Phlegmish posted:

In most of these cases, especially before the rise of nationalism, there was no specific intent to encroach upon the other party's culture or language. It's similar to how the Dutch-French linguistic border has shifted slightly northward over the centuries, simply because French at this time had a higher status and was widely accepted as a lingua franca. Most of the natives accepted the cultural conversion 'willingly', albeit under obvious sociological pressure. And just like Flanders is deeply influenced by French culture, I get the impression that German culture has left its mark on the Czechs, despite the aftermath of WWII.

Sure, but there is a major difference still: France didn't control the Netherlands throughout the 19th century.

thecolorpurple posted:

I know this thread makes a big deal out of France's cultural assimilation policies, but speaking as someone from a family with roots in Alsace from pre-french conquest, in 1871 we had no popular desire to join Germany and throughout the Kaiserreich period Alsace-Lorraine was unique in being the only "german" territory to be administered directly from Berlin rather than federally. By 1918 there wasn't necessarily a huge desire to be reincorporated into France but there was definitely a strong undercurrent of pro-french, anti-kaiser sentiment throughout the annexation, and France did in fact give Alsace-Lorraine a few liberties that remain to this day. Cultural imperialism is bad but it was better than the Reich's actual imperialism.

I think it should be mentioned that some of the strict assimilation policies of France were implemented after the loss of Alsace-Lorraine, so that might explain the preference for France over Germany when you include the Prussians being shitheads like usual. Actually, did the Prussians attempt to forcibly integrate/assimilate the region like they did in the Schleswig and Poland, or was it just general mistreatment?

# ¿ Oct 8, 2013 17:54

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the jizz taxi posted:

France annexed Belgium after the Austrians were defeated, and turned the Netherlands into a puppet state after the Napoleonic conquests. Anyway, Phlegmish's post referred more to Flanders anyway, which had always been in France's sphere of influence, first as a vassal of the French king, later under the Dukes of Burgundy, who actually unified the Low Countries for a brief period.

The Napoleonic Wars ended in 1815, being in a sphere of influence is not the same as being a direct subject, and as you say, the Dukes of Burgundy only controlled the territory for a brief period. That's pretty different from the Czechs being part of a German-dominated political entity for around a thousand years, especially since the Czechs were a much less independent part of it during the period in which nationality became increasingly important.

# ¿ Oct 9, 2013 10:22

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Found some stats: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Foreign_language_learning_statistics

EU27 average is around 60% of students ~~learning~~ being taught 2 foreign languages at a level appropriate to 15-16 year olds, and over 90% learning English to some degree. How much they retain is another question entirely though. Speaking for Denmark, the position of German has deteriorated dramatically during my lifetime. In 1990 it went from being on equal footing with English in the curriculum, with French as third foreign language later, to becoming the second foreign language between French and English, and then finally becoming a second foreign language choice alongside French. German teachers would very much like for it to be taught to younger students again, but whether that's going to happen I don't know. All I know is that most students basically don't see any reason to learn the language, when the Germans could just get their act together and learn to speak English properly. (Dubbing is widely derided here, unsurprisingly.) Perhaps it's easier to adopt English as an international language when your country never really had any ambitions of hegemony?

# ¿ Oct 12, 2013 23:25

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Soviet Commubot posted:

I found some more data about that, it's a few years old but should still be fairly relevant:

http://www.cedefop.europa.eu/en/articles/16815.aspx

I'm sure it'll only go up over the years as language learning begins earlier and earlier and teaching practices improve. As of 2008 French schools start exposing kids to a foreign language at 7 or 8 years old.

I wonder what it is about Denmark that makes us so weird in all these graphs.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2013 09:44

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Took the data from kustomkarkommando's link and made some maps:

Dubbing vs. subtitles seems like the subject where Europeans are most divided, though I kinda doubt people would rate it as important as the questions below. :v:

Still, this map makes it pretty obvious why us Danes look down on the Germans and their predilection for dubbing. (Any Dutch person that can weigh in on the Dutch view?)

Not much to say here. I'm not surprised the French are part of the less egalitarian countries, but I am surprised the Netherlands join them. Have the Dutch just decided that everyone should really just speak English?

This map suggests to me that might be the case.

Silly Brits, you're supposed to be Europhobic. Or are the working from the assumption that the common language would be English? Would be interesting to a map where they asked the question if everyone in Europe should be able to speak a common language that was not the mother language of the person being asked.

Anosmoman posted:

Dubbing is really important. Everybody in my country hears and reads English every single day if you turn on a tv or the radio. At the same time because the country is so small we 1) Travel to other language spheres more often 2) Spend more time on foreign language web sites because there's simply less of them in our native tongue. Like a Norwegian version of SA would be 500 people or so. I always wanted to know what nationalities are on SA - it seems there's a lot more Scandinavians and Dutch than there are Spanish, French or German but that's just a hunch.

Yeah, I would really like to see stats on this as well.

Koramei posted:

Dubbing is definitely important, but I think the educational system's emphasis on language learning is still a bigger factor- I mean, according to the trilingualism map, both Italy and Germany are doing pretty well in that regard despite all the media available in their own languages.

Apart from the map having some pretty big intervals (Germany and Italy fall in the 20-39% bracket), it's also based on people's own judgment of their language skills. I suspect that judgment is going to be adversely affected by dubbing.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2013 14:11

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ekuNNN posted:

Dutch people generally look down on the German fondness for dubbing and make fun of it a lot. And because almost everyone is pretty good at English most people feel that the French should just get over themselves and speak English like normal people, when dealing with foreigners.

Because of the media we consume most people quickly lose their German and/or French language skills from school, but we keep using our English.

Replace Dutch with Danish (I wonder how many times I've asked people to do that because they confused the two.), and this is basically how I would describe Denmark. Not surprising really, given that the Dutch fit in nicely among the Nordic countries according to the Subs vs. Dubs map. (And from Phlegmish's statements, that goes for the Flemings as well.) A map that I feel shows the true superiority of subtitles, just look at the enthusiasm we show for them. The Germans can only manage 57% totally for dubs vs. 11% totally for subtitles, where the Swedes manage 92% totally for subtitles while only 1% totally for dubs. Once you go sub, you never go dub.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2013 20:07

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Grey Area posted:

I expect the primary reason the Dutch and other smaller peoples say they prefer subs is simply that quality dubs are not available or only available for children's media, rather than any intrinsic cosmopolitanism. Sour grapes, in other words. (See also: American anime fans)

I'm not sure anyone has claimed any intrinsic cosmopolitanism? Economics have made dubbing unfeasible for us, but that just means we get to see movies and television with the voices of the original actors. Actors whose way of speaking can in itself be an important part of the story, which can't be replicated simply by replacing a Southern drawl with the dialect of an Austrian country bumpkin. (Something that you can't even be sure will be replicated in a dub anyway.) I would really like to see an argument for why dubbing is superior, especially in the case of original languages that the viewer is practically bilingual in.

# ¿ Oct 13, 2013 22:52

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I felt like adding something to me previous post on the subject:

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I'm not sure anyone has claimed any intrinsic cosmopolitanism? Economics have made dubbing unfeasible for us, but that just means we get to see movies and television with the voices of the original actors. Actors whose way of speaking can in itself be an important part of the story, which can't be replicated simply by replacing a Southern drawl with the dialect of an Austrian country bumpkin. (Something that you can't even be sure will be replicated in a dub anyway.) I would really like to see an argument for why dubbing is superior, especially in the case of original languages that the viewer is practically bilingual in.

Specifically on the subject of quality. It is my experience that it is not that unusual for subtitles to miss important details, beyond what the limitations on length would explain, or to even be downright wrong. This is of course not that big a problem when you understand the language being spoken anyway, but I wonder if the same is true for the translations used in dubbing? Or are the people behind the dubbing translations much better at their jobs than our translators? Seems to me that would be a major hindrance to the enjoyment of foreign films. (Though it makes me wonder what I've missed in films where I did not have a great grasp of the language.)

On the other hand, if the fact that you're doing dubs means more care is taken in translation, I guess I can see the value in it. Even if that value could then be applied to subtitles anyway, which gets us back to square one. I suppose that with digital broadcasting and modern streaming services, this might become a moot point in countries that favor dubbing anyway, just give people the choice between either option.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 14:49

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Kalos posted:

In MI there's also Frankenmuth. A town who's entire economy is based off shouting "look how German we are!" and Christmas decorations. I guess it's not the most visible European culture in the US, (how can you tell if an American has Irish ancestry? Don't worry, they'll tell you) but in my experience it's not exactly hidden and certainly not dead.

If that's anything like like Solvang, California, a so-called "Danish" town, then it might be closer to a resurrection. A resurrection that brought back something wrong. Though supposedly the Danish immigrants didn't have the same sense of national identity that many other European immigrants did, which led to them assimilating quickly and willingly, so perhaps a German town would be more likely to retain something approaching an authentic link to the past. All I know is that Solvang is loving freaky as hell to look at as a Dane, like some fever dream version of a Denmark based more on fairy tales than reality.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 17:47

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Ardennes posted:

Well, it is Southern California, and it is a decent spot along the 101 for a tourist trap.

I'm sure it's a fine tourist trap, and it does seem to paint a decent enough picture of Denmark, given the American context, but it just doesn't seem like an authentic traditional immigrant community to me. On the other hand, I might just be reacting to a kind of uncanny valley effect, due to it being like Denmark but not quite. At least it seems the pastries are up to code, which is like half of the Danish experience anyway. Christ, I think I kinda want to go there now just to see it first hand.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 19:09

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Abilifier posted:

That's what I think Frankenmuth is like, basically what an American thinks German towns are like. The fact that there's a giant store dedicated entirely to Christmas ornaments nearby only adds to the freakiness. But then again, these places are tourist traps, I'm sure a truly authentic small town German (or Danish) experience would be pretty uninteresting.

Come on, I'm sure Americans would love to go visit a town with a single lovely pizzeria/hotdog stand, where the single most common vehicle is a Puch Maxi moped with a milk crate on the back for beers.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 20:05

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Peanut President posted:

Nearest Pizza chain in each of those squares. The colors is what chain it is.

But what the heck does "nearest pizza chain" mean when talking about an area, as opposed to a point?

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 20:44

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DrBouvenstein posted:

Maybe the center of each square?

That's really the only thing that kinda makes sense, but that's still a weird loving thing to map.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 20:58

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Peanut President posted:

I don't really know. I'm not sure why you just wouldn't do counties.

Yeah, majority pizza chain restaurant per county seems like the more sensible thing to depict.

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 21:03

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DrBouvenstein posted:

A lot of low population counties could easily end up in two or three way ties with "one/two/three of each" though.

Obviously, like with ethnicity maps, just put "Mixed Pizza Heritage".

# ¿ Oct 14, 2013 21:10

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SaltyJesus posted:

Leaving aside the question of validity, do you know which IQ tests were used or what the data collection methodology was?

I can't imagine that it's anything but a troll, designed to rile up Australians by calling them literally retarded.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2013 17:15

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Jerry Cotton posted:

Actually it's exactly the sort of thing you might expect from a racist with a preset agenda. Not all racists are racist against jews you know.

Also, even when they are, a large part of the mythos surrounding the JEWS is that they're cunning as gently caress. What they usually lack is morals in the antisemitic conception of the world.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2013 17:32

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Koramei posted:

reverse-image searching it did send me to this incredibly informative map of IQ versus average penis size, though, so it's not all bad.

Aw, you got me all excited, I was hoping someone had made a map that showed IQ/penis size, not just both on the same map.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2013 18:10

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tractor fanatic posted:

People often forget how far south the US is compared to Europe. New York City is south of Rome, and Miami is well south of Cairo. It's all Canada's fault because their stupid cold air makes the US way colder than it should be.

The Rockies also push the Pacific air that would normally keep the western US warmer in the winter down south over the Mexican Gulf, where Europe doesn't have anything preventing Atlantic air from keeping it mild in the winter. West coast climate is great.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2013 19:18

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Falukorv posted:

Yeah i find it a fascinating thought. My city (Stockholm) is a little north of Juneau, and i lived three years in a city north of Fairbanks. Sure doesn't feel like it. Thank God for the Gulf stream.

computer parts posted:

Guess what's ending soon due to climate change?

Outside Northern Norway and Iceland, the Gulf Stream is not actually that important for the temperature in Europe, most of it is due to having a major ocean to the west.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2013 19:31

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Deceitful Penguin posted:

At least we'll always have geothermal heating~

Well, I doubt an average drop of 5 degrees Celsius would be the end of the world.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2013 23:23

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DrSunshine posted:

Wait, you're not serious are you? Because a 5C drop is about the severity of the last glacial maximum. You know, that time when Europe was covered by a big ice sheet.

I don't recall if 5C was the exact number, but yeah, I think it's something in that ballpark the Gulf Stream adds to Iceland and northern Norway. Most of Europe only gets about 1C, which means it disappearing mostly just cancels out the increased temperature that would shut it down. Interestingly, the melting of the Greenland Ice Sheet would do something similar, by reducing the bulge of water its gravity causes that has lifted sea levels in the North Atlantic, while of course adding to the overall sea level. The break-even point is at about the distance of Denmark. (The opposite effect is in play for Antarctica though, and both together are bad news for the tropics.)

# ¿ Oct 18, 2013 00:38

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univbee posted:

I think Montreal is too major of a Canadian city with way too much going on Canada-wide to ever truly split off.

I would counter with the possibility of Montreal being too major a Quebecois city to split it off from Quebec. It's a historically French city, with a majority French-speaking population (56,9% speaking French at home vs. 18.6% English), and the metropolitan area as a whole skews even more French. When considering its future in a plebiscite, it seems unlikely to me that a majority French city would prefer being an exclave of the Anglo-Canadian Canada, instead of joining its brethren in a free Quebec. To me, it kinda sounds like arguing that Glasgow is far too important to the UK, and thus it should remain part of the UK even if the rest of Scotland goes.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2013 19:02

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# ¿ May 18, 2024 03:16

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Phlegmish posted:

Plus, the dominant principle in international law (e.g. Yugoslavia) is that pre-existing administrative borders are maintained in the case of secession. That's why Croatia was allowed to secede from Yugoslavia, but Krajina wasn't allowed to secede from Croatia, and why Kosovo seceded from Serbia including the parts with Serbian majorities.

And, as pointed out by a Canadian politician, it's trying to have your cake and eat it too. As long as the yes vote is below 50%, none of Quebec gets to go, but as soon as it's over that threshold, suddenly parts of Quebec gets to split off? Either Quebec gets the choice of leaving as a united entity, with no demands for referendums for individual areas, or individual bits of Quebec should be allowed to secede independent of the overall sentiment of the province.

E: The "Plebiscite after secession!" argument seems to be a common way for people opposed to separatism to hedge their bets.

Fojar38 posted:

It makes very little sense regardless. Pretty much ever major urban area stays part of Canada while the rural conservative parts split off. It really isn't much different from rural Americans thinking they don't need fancy government or city folk, they're just fine by themselves and can get everything they need independently.

Of course, the catch here is that people who live in Montreal or Quebec City are never going to vote in favor of secession, making Quebec separatism a far deader issue than most foreigners realize.

Except it probably isn't like that at all? That map is based on whether the county(?) in question is majority in favor of the secession of Quebec or not, not whether the blue parts think they should be independent without the urban areas. Looking at the map, I would assume it's mostly just a matter of the major urban areas being the most popular places to live, and thus where you would find the greatest concentration of Canadians from outside Quebec (Who would be much more likely to be English speaking than not.)

A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Oct 18, 2013

# ¿ Oct 18, 2013 21:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

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