Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Silent Linguist posted:

I'm pretty sure wood-elves are usually light-haired, so that wasn't a mistake. Frodo should definitely not have been played by a 19-year-old, though.

It was the Vanyar who were fair haired; the Teleri (of whom the Sindar were a part) would have been darker, some with grey-silver hair.

# ¿ Mar 16, 2013 23:03

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 01:53

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:

I needed a break from space opera's so I bought these 6 books:

The Hobbit
The Silmarillion
The Children of Hurin
The Fellowship of the Ring
The Two Towers
The Return of the King

Is there any specific order I should read these in? I assume Hobbit -> Fellow -> Two Towers -> Return of the King, wherein would be the best place to read The Silmarillion and The Children of Hurin?

Reading Silmarillion first, then Hobbit, FotR, TT, RotK, with Children as a postscript would be another option, putting the books in chronological order (except for Children) and giving you the immense background set out in Silmarillion before you embark on the other books. The significant caveat is that not everyone likes the Silmarillion, which is a kind of synthetic mythological history. I personally like it better than the other books, but it may strike you differently.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2013 14:30

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Data Graham posted:

I really enjoy the Martin Shaw audiobook of the Silmarillion, for what it's worth.

This is even better though.

Seconding the audiobook. It's huge, but great if you have a commute.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2013 01:10

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

On the story elements referenced in the previous page, a few more:

Middle Earth = Midgard
Numenor = Atlantis (Atalante)
Ring motif -> Niebelungenlieid, Ring Cycle

Probably a fair amount of material reflecting the Eddas

# ¿ Feb 8, 2014 01:05

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Also there was Avalone on Tol Eressea.

As to the cities, Tolkien also builds in other elements that might best be described as esoteric, e.g., Gondor is the city with seven levels, Anduin passes between the cities of Sun and Moon (Minas Ithil, Minas Anor), the sword of the king is the sword that unites Sun and Moon (Anar, Isil).

# ¿ Feb 11, 2014 02:30

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

There also seems to be a notion in Tolkien that artists have one "Great Work" in them and aren't endlessly creative. Feanor tops out with the Silmarils, etc.

I got a chuckle thinking of Melkor waxing poetic on this like Feanor and Olwe:

And Melkor spoke before the Valar, saying: "The Fire of my Might has passed away, and lives now only in the memories of Beleriand and the shadows of the destruction I have wrought. Foresighted was I! Even for those who are mightiest under Il�vatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Marring of Arda I brought into being, and within E� I can do so never again. Yet had I release from the Void for but a little while I could recall life to the Valaraukar, the Uruloki, and many other things, ere they pass for ever from Middle Earth; and then your healing should be once more hurt, and the malice of Melkor be reborn anew."

# ¿ Mar 27, 2014 05:13

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Canemacar posted:

Because Eru was a smug prick to him?

Eru did't like braying trumpets. I don't blame him.

# ¿ Jul 7, 2014 23:10

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

I couldn't find it either but as a consolation prize here's Haldir complaining about Galadriel's poncy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiPydBlHce4

(I can no longer unsee Claudius Glaber whenever I see Craig Parker in FotR or TTT; images from Spartacus just come crashing in.)

# ¿ Feb 18, 2015 02:55

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

euphronius posted:

Feanor's obsession with the silmarils causes the strife, not some catholic family law drama.

I think the reference was to this:

The Silmarillion posted:

The wedding of his father was not pleasing to F�anor; and he had no great love for Indis, nor for Fingolfin and Finarfin, her sons. He lived apart from them, exploring the land of Aman, or busying himself with the knowledge and the crafts in which he delighted. In those unhappy things which later came to pass, and in which F�anor was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Finw�, judging that if Finw� had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of F�anor would have been otherwise, and great evil might have been prevented; for the sorrow and the strife in the house of Finw� is graven in the memory of the Noldorin Elves.

Beyond that, Melkor convinced the Noldor in general, and (indirectly) Feanor in particular, that they were in essence being held in Valinor, leading to Fingolfin's complaining to Finwe, the confrontation immediately thereafter with Feanor and the banishment.

Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Mar 22, 2015

# ¿ Mar 22, 2015 07:27

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

The Silmarillion just says that the elves thought "in the beginning she was one of those that [Melkor] corrupted to his service", i.e., one of the Maiar of the song who followed Melkor's theme instead of Illuvatar's.

As far as spider sex is concerned, it says:

quote:

[F]leeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.

# ¿ Mar 23, 2015 19:44

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Data Graham posted:

Terry Brooks?

Bingo.

Maybe instead of doing TWOW, GRRM will write a sequel to the Silmarillion instead. We could be treated to scenes of Dunedain making GBS threads in the wild and long passages featuring Elrond eating various stews and pies. Could be good.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2015 05:47

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

There's also Yggdrasil; the concepts are different, but perhaps it was partial inspiration.

# ¿ May 26, 2015 18:46

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

and has the hots (as it were) for the angel who drives the sun

# ¿ May 26, 2015 18:59

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

100YrsofAttitude posted:

Where does he mention this? I don't remember his moon origin myth.

He's probably talking about this passage:

The Silmarillion posted:

Isil was first wrought and made ready, and first rose into the realm of the stars, and was the elder of the new lights, as was Telperion of the Trees. Then for a while the world had moonlight, and many things stirred and woke that had waited long in the sleep of Yavanna. The servants of Morgoth were filled with amazement, but the Elves of the Outer Lands looked up in delight; and even as the Moon rose above the darkness in the west, Fingolfin let blow his silver trumpets and began his march into Middle-earth, and the shadows of his host went long and black before them.

Tilion had traversed the heaven seven times, and thus was in the furthest east, when the vessel of Arien was made ready. Then Anar arose in glory, and the first dawn of the Sun was like a great fire upon the towers of the Pel�ri: the clouds of Middle-earth were kindled, and there was heard the sound of many waterfalls. Then indeed Morgoth was dismayed, and he descended into the uttermost depths of Angband, and withdrew his servants, sending forth great reek and dark cloud to hide his land from the light of the Day-star.

Now Varda purposed that the two vessels should journey in Ilmen and ever be aloft, but not together; each should pass from Valinor into the east and return, the one issuing from the west as the other turned from the east. Thus the first of the new days were reckoned after the manner of the Trees, from the mingling of the lights when Arien and Tilion passed in then- courses, above the middle of the Earth. But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened.

Because of the waywardness of Tilion, therefore, and yet more because of the prayers of L�rien and Est�, who said that sleep and rest had been banished from the Earth, and the stars were hidden, Varda changed her counsel, and allowed a time wherein the world should still have shadow and half-light. Anar rested therefore a while in Valinor, lying upon the cool bosom of the Outer Sea; and Evening, the time of the descent and resting of the Sun, was the hour of greatest light and joy in Aman. But soon the Sun was drawn down by the servants of Ulmo, and went then in haste under the Earth, and so came unseen to the east and there mounted the heaven again, lest night be over-long and evil walk under the Moon. But by Anar the waters of the Outer Sea were made hot and glowed with coloured fire, and Valinor had light for a while after the passing of Arien. Yet as she journeyed under the Earth and drew towards the east the glow faded and Valinor was dim, and the Valar mourned then most for the death of Laurelin. At dawn the shadows of the Mountains of Defence lay heavy on the Blessed Realm.

Varda commanded the Moon to journey in like manner, and passing under Earth to arise in the east, but only after the Sun had descended from heaven. But Tilion went with uncertain pace, as yet he goes, and was still drawn towards Arien, as he shall ever be; so that often both may be seen above the Earth together, or at times it will chance that he comes so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day.

# ¿ May 26, 2015 19:55

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

euphronius posted:

Morgoth stole it from Formenos, Ungoliant ate it; pooped out in beleriland, picked up by dwarf going east, lost in bottom of lonely mountain

Or gift from Felgund to first men. Stolen by easterners. Brought east; lost in mountain.

"Of the Excrement of Ungoliant"

# ¿ Jun 24, 2015 22:18

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

26/30

# ¿ Jun 18, 2016 04:27

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

For someone who really liked the Silmarillion (and has read LOTR and The Hobbit), what else would it make sense to read in the same setting? Just Unfinished Tales? I thought about The History of Middle Earth, but it seemed like that might be (serious) overkill.

# ¿ Jun 19, 2016 03:48

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Radio! posted:

Interrupting distance-chat to post this because holy poo poo.

Warning: extremely NSFW (dildos). You'll see why I linked it here starting on page 4.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785918&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

I believe this is the post Radio is referencing, if anyone cares to review it without having to plow through a few pages of dildo chat:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785918&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=4#post463511251

eta: God help me

Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Sep 9, 2016

# ¿ Sep 9, 2016 03:28

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

The Belgian posted:

Aren't the great spiders explicitly the spawn of Ungoliath?

Ungoliath entered the world from the outer void at some very early time.

"Sheer were the precipices of Ered Gorgoroth, and beneath their feet were shadows that were laid before the rising of the Moon. Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked. There spiders of the fell race of Ungoliant abode, spinning their unseen webs in which all living things were snared; and monsters wandered there that were born in the long dark before the Sun, hunting silently with many eyes."

eta:

"There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to L�thien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-d�r; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel D�ath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world."

Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Sep 14, 2016

# ¿ Sep 14, 2016 21:36

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

not sure why but suddenly it occurs to me that this would be a good time to create a dramatic production (film or television) of akallabeth

# ¿ Feb 8, 2017 01:44

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

"aides to denethor privately expressed concern that sauron may have obtained palantir recordings showing eowyn urinating on her bower at aragorn's request. the dunedain, however, flatly rejected these assertions as an unsubstantiated smear campaign, a characterization that was not, apparently, intended as a pun."

# ¿ Feb 14, 2017 06:16

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Sauron's running his country and at least he's a leader, unlike what we have here in Gondor. We Numenoreans have done a lot of killing also, Gandalf, so you know.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2017 02:37

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

ar-pharzon the orange

# ¿ Feb 17, 2017 19:13

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Ynglaur posted:

The return of the king is imminent.

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...usaolp00000058&

a ragged house long bereft of lordship imo

# ¿ Mar 2, 2017 14:12

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

would love to see a complete version of the lay of leithian; is all of the partial material included?

# ¿ Jun 24, 2017 15:26

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Bongo Bill posted:

It's as complete as it can possibly be considering the work was unfinished.

Yeah i mangled the wording there; I knew it was an unfinished work, but was curious as to whether those pieces he actually did complete were included in the new book. I appreciate the feedback, because I love the story but wasn't sure whether I wanted to get the book, and I think based on that I will.

# ¿ Jun 25, 2017 05:00

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Data Graham posted:

Though the main reason I felt like typing this up was that as I was listening to that segment, I was walking up the steps from Penn Station onto 7th Avenue, and there was a homeless guy sleeping on the stairs halfway up, and just as the prof waxed on about pity and compassion, I looked down and noticed that someone had bought a wrapped breakfast sandwich at the bakery right there and left it there for the guy

Many years ago, as I was commuting into midtown not far from there, I emerged from the train, ready to head up to Lex, and dead in the middle of the platform and all of us trying to walk out, a woman in business attire hiked up her skirt, squatted down and started pissing. Nothing about her appearance made her seem mentally ill, aged or anything other than a relatively affluent young professional. She just seemed to say "gently caress it, I'm taking a piss right goddman now." It made a large yellow puddle that began to drain down onto the area with the tracks. It was very surprising, even in NYC.

eta: I used to read LOTR and the Silmarillion about once a year or so; the podcast sounds like a fitting addition to that kind of crazy. Look forward to trying it out.

Red Dad Redemption fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Jul 27, 2017

# ¿ Jul 27, 2017 03:10

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The analysis of rights mattering seems valid and relevant to me but I'm sad he didn't go further into the actual legal claims.

To break it down there are basically three clear legal claims to the ring:

1) saurons as creator

2) isildur's by right of conquest / battle

3) deagols by right of finder's keepers

And a fourth arguable legal claim:

4) Bilbo's as an innocent purchaser (from gollum via riddle game).

There's a concept in law that innocent third party purchasers can sometimes gain title to stolen goods,, if they bought them innocently in ordinary course of business. Bilbo *kinda* did this, via the riddle game. He also *kinda* has a claim on the ring as an independent finder (like deagol) and kinda by right of battle (since gollum tried to kill him, although it wasn't in a war).

Bilbo then passes on his claim to Frodo. So Frodo has an *arguable* claim, legally, in a way that say Boromir doesn't.

Note that this is despite the fact that Smeagols' claim was never legitimate, since he just stole it.

smeagol as a thief can't convey more title than he has and probably does not have conveyable voidable title for ucc purposes, so bilbo and frodo may have problems if sauron files suit. perhaps there is an adverse possession or statute of limitations angle

# ¿ Jul 28, 2017 21:58

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

sassassin posted:

A gem can't just become a star, stars are massive balls of flaming gas millions of kilometres away #urukscience

the bright stars are telperion syrup

# ¿ Aug 6, 2017 17:58

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

euphronius posted:

Shelob is a monstrous evil spirit and not a spider.

yes, but in spider form, with legs, webs, a thick hide etc.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2017 17:04

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Ashcans posted:

I am just disappointed that someone said 'wait, spirits can choose to take whichever form serves them best' and then didn't immediately jump to Sexy Gandalf.

Of the Disrobing of Gandalf and the Sighing of the Elves

# ¿ Aug 15, 2017 17:14

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

maybe she's like lolth: fair face, sexy spidery shape (if you go for the whole multuiple legs, huge thorax thing)

# ¿ Aug 15, 2017 20:28

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 01:53

Red Dad Redemption: Sep 29, 2007

Ginette Reno posted:

Lotr is great because there's mysteries like that in it. The real world has all kinds of unsolved mysteries. It makes a world feel more real when not everything is explained. I like that we don't know what the Blue Wizards did. I like that Tom Bombadil is a big yellow booted enigma. I like that we have no idea what the hell the tentacle beast near Moria is or why it was there.

poo poo like that adds a lot of color to the world and it's fun to speculate.

it�s all midichlorians

# ¿ Oct 27, 2017 16:15

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