The Science Fiction and Fantasy Thread: Read the OP, Bridge of Birds, and Murderbot

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PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Last week I started reading Chronicles of the Black Company on ebook, an omnibus of the first three novels by Glen Cook. I remember hearing good things about it, and Steven Erikson cites it as a major influence of his for the Malazan series that I love, so I though I'd give it a go - and I couldn't get more than 10% through it before I stopped.

It's the way it's written. The first-person narration was really stilted and slightly jarring. The novel skips scenes it shouldn't, such as "Ok we need to go kidnap this important guy and ask him some tough questions" immediately followed by in the text "that was a tough kidnapping and he's answered some of our questions after we worked him," glossing over events that really should be shown, and Cook does this over and over again. It's nothing but lulls; reaction scenes that are telling me what's going to happen, what has happened, but never showing it happening, which is really boring!

Maybe it gets better later on but I can't power through it.

# ¿ Jun 21, 2013 22:25

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 00:49

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Play posted:

You know it's funny, because I couldn't disagree with you more. I actually adored the very beginning of the black company series, because of its brusqueness. Often I really appreciate writing that is a bit aloof, where things happen quickly and there is little unnecessary exposition and description. In contrast, I feel like over time the Black Company books became more like an infinite number of other mediocre fantasy series.

I am one of those who always will highly recommend Passage At Arms as Glen Cook's finest book, but then I'm a sucker for sci fi and naval battles and submarine epics and when they're all combined, so much the better (:

I think it really needed more description and exposition in the short part that I read, because:

mllaneza posted:

Cook's talent for plot is readily apparent in the first few books of the Black Company series. How does this sound for a novel:

A mercenary company investigates an insurgency, puts down a rebellion, plots with a foreign wizard to betray their employer, hunts a were leopard, assassinates their employer, fights their way out of the city, and takes service with a dark wizard of formidable power and subtlety. That's chapter one of The Black Company.

That's how it reads, like it's a novel of bullet-points for the plot, never expanded upon; a good outline of a novel but not fleshed out. That blurb sounds exciting, but when Cook only devotes a couple paragraphs to a couple pages to each of those plot points it feels hollow and not compelling at all to me.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2013 15:41

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Probably because it wasn't as good as the last two, but Abaddon's Gate ebook at Amazon is only $5 for who knows how long, http://www.amazon.com/Abaddons-Gate-The-Expanse-ebook/dp/B00A2DZMYE

Even though as reported by other goons here the series was extended so the ending is lacking, it was enough closure after the last one.

Also it looks like the first one, Leviathan Wakes, is still discounted to $3 http://www.amazon.com/Leviathan-Wakes-The-Expanse-ebook/dp/B0047Y171G

# ¿ Jun 29, 2013 03:24

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

BlazinLow305 posted:

I actually just edited in that I had read those and enjoyed then. Maybe I should redo that whole post and just list likes/dislikes, it got out of hand.

My go-to recommended fantasy novel right now is The Lies of Locke Lamora, a fantasy heist novel with amazing dialogue set in a place like an old Italian city-state. It's got a sequel but it's pretty stand alone; you say you want a series but Lies is a pretty hefty book (700+ pages) and wraps up nicely. I'd check out the sample http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/055358894X, it hooked me faster than any novel in a long time.

It's disappointing that you didn't keep with the Malazan series, how far did you get? Its density, high fantasy elements and the average first novel are all pretty high barries to new readers but it markedly improves in the second novel and the third one is fantastic. I'd think if someone liked Gardens of the Moon enough to go onto the markedly improved Deadhouse Gates you'd get hooked enough to read Memories of Ice and be stuck for 7 more novels.

# ¿ Jul 17, 2013 17:01

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

John Charity Spring posted:

Player of Games is the other one that's recommended as a starting point. If you're interested at all, just keep reading in publication order, although you'll know by Player of Games whether you want to keep reading or not.

Cheston - Listen to this guy quoted here; goons here rightly hold up Use of Weapons, but I don't I would've appreciated it fully if I hadn't gotten a view of the Culture beforehand through Player of Games, and that novel is good. I also read Consider Phlebas first and it looks like you have the same reaction I had. It was probably a couple years until I got around to giving the next novel in the series a go, but it was worth it.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2013 03:07

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Abu Dave posted:

Will probably stop reading then, I cannot stand that poo poo. It just reads like some fat nerds wank fantasy.

Don't forget the author-insert has aspergers as well, I rolled my eyes at that.

The sad part is that a friend who rarely reads loaned it to me and enjoyed it, so I read it super-fast just so I could talk to him about it and encourage him to read more, otherwise I would've just put it down.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2014 22:39

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

uberkeyzer posted:

You might enjoy The Red Knight by Miles Cameron. The author has a background in historical fiction and it shows -- the "culture" is pretty much straight medieval England and there are references to real-world people like Aristotle. There's also a fair bit of magic that is reasonably explained, I guess -- but if you enjoy swords and armor you will definitely enjoy this.

I gave up 50% through The Red Knight because the novel was one battle after another that all melded together into blandness and boredom. I liked the historical basis for the setting but the constant fights were too much.

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

I don't plan to read Mazalan because it seems to be a series with no payoff. From the bits I have tried to read it just sort of... meanders around. Dunno if that's cause the sample chapters suck or the book sucks, but it's enough to have me not want to grab em.

I read a book or two of the Black Company series, and I gotta say it's more along the lines of Gemmell than any sort of big political thing. It was fairly decent, but just not something I was in the mood for at the time. I do plan to come back to it.

The Malazan series certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea but I found the endings of Malazan novels satisfying and almost always thrilling; like a Guy Ritchie movie where all the plot threads converge at the end into a great conclusion, both within individual novels and over the series as a whole. The first novel is so weak though I don't usually recommend it to people unless heavily into the genre, and even then it can be a bit much.

The Black Company, though, was one ebook I returned after a few days - I was really annoyed at how it's written, skipping over events, for example: "Hey we got to kidnap this guy it's going to be really dangerous!" next line "Boy that was tough, only a few of us died getting him." I would really look at a sample first.

# ¿ Apr 28, 2014 04:59

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Donald Duck posted:

Does anyone know what the difference between the two Kindle versions of The Golem and the Djinni are?

Kindle Edition $10.42
Kindle Edition, August 15, 2013 $6.74

What Amazon store is this? I only see one on the US store here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008QXVDJ0/

See if they're from different publishers, otherwise I'd probably just download a sample of the cheaper one to see if there's any glaring problems with formatting and go for it. Long ago Amazon often had different kindle versions for sale of a book, but seemed to have stopped that for the most part and only one version would be available. When I bought Tim Powers' On Stranger Tides a couple years ago or so there were two kindle versions but from different publishers, that may be the same reason why you see two versions whichever Amazon store you're looking at.

# ¿ May 7, 2014 17:54

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

VagueRant posted:

I'm just past the first (long) chapter in The Black Company and it's written really weirdly. I still don't know what the hell is going on or what anything is. It constantly feels like there's missing information, like I'm only getting part of the story. The worst part is there are little individual lines that are interesting but I find myself going "but where's the rest?"

Is it just me? Does it get better? Will it eventually all click?

I had the same problem you have and I gave up and returned the book, I didn't have the patience to go on to see if it got any better. Here's my thoughts about it from earlier in this thread:

PlushCow posted:

It's the way it's written. The first-person narration was really stilted and slightly jarring. The novel skips scenes it shouldn't, such as "Ok we need to go kidnap this important guy and ask him some tough questions" immediately followed by in the text "that was a tough kidnapping and he's answered some of our questions after we worked him," glossing over events that really should be shown, and Cook does this over and over again. It's nothing but lulls; reaction scenes that are telling me what's going to happen, what has happened, but never showing it happening, which is really boring!

PlushCow posted:

...like it's a novel of bullet-points for the plot, never expanded upon; a good outline of a novel but not fleshed out. That blurb sounds exciting, but when Cook only devotes a couple paragraphs to a couple pages to each of those plot points it feels hollow and not compelling at all to me.

EDIT: It can take a while to get into any book, but for me there's always more to read and never enough time, so I won't keep reading a book if I'm not enjoying it after a while. I was a bit over 10% through The Chronicles of the Black Company, an omnibus of the first 3 novels before I stopped. I gave it a fair chance but it didn't click for me.

PlushCow fucked around with this message at 17:27 on May 21, 2014

# ¿ May 21, 2014 17:17

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

holocaust bloopers posted:

Hhmmm alright. So I like Game Of Thrones. Haven't read the books, but am caught up on the show. What fantasy series is up there with GoT that would be worth reading?

No interest in reading the Game of Thrones books themselves? I understand just sticking to the TV show, but the show necessarily edits out big chunks of the novels and you might enjoy reading the novels and seeing how much gets changed between the show and the books, for better or worse.

Otherwise, I'm surprised nobody immediately recommended Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy (The Blade Itself, Before they are Hanged, Last Argument of Kings). I think the tone is pretty close to GoT and it's what I usually recommend to friends who are looking for something 'like GoT' as you are, and it's also what I often see goons here recommend as well. I don't think it's as good as GoT, but it's up there, particularly if you enjoy the trilogy and go onto a couple post stand-alone (Best Served Cold, The Heroes), if you finish the trilogy.

Personally what I like to recommend to friends who want a good fantasy novel but not interested in getting into a big series is to read Scott Lynch's The Lies of Locke Lamora. It's a heist novel set in a fantasy Italian Renaissance city, and it's a self contained, stand-alone novel pretty much. Doesn't end on any cliffhanger and the teases for subsequent novels aren't a big deal.

# ¿ May 23, 2014 18:22

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Just an FYI, Amazon.com has Ancillary Justice ebook for $1.99 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BAXFDLM/

I jumped on it, as goons here often recommend it and you can't go wrong at that price. I wouldn't wait on it if you're interested, this wasn't posted as a daily deal today so it's just publisher discretion and who knows how long it will last, could be days, weeks, or just hours - nobody knows.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2014 03:50

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

I don't know how long it will last, I can't find anything about a promotion, but the kindle ebook version of Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings is currently $0.00! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003P2WO5E

If you do give it a shot, know that the prologue chapter with a character named Szeth is a bit off-putting and has been described as a "videogame tutorial level" by some goons before; but the rest of the novel isn't like that and it's worth it to get past that one chapter to see if you'd enjoy the novel.

And if you don't like it, well it was free!

PlushCow fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Oct 17, 2014

# ¿ Oct 17, 2014 03:57

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Revelation 2-13 posted:

Hey sci-fi/fantasy discussing goons. I'm coming off a three year university stint where I've read a million non-fiction books and haven't had time to read for pleasure/leisure at all, I'm looking for a recommendation for either fantasy or sci-fi to read, and I was hoping some of you geniuses might be able to help.

I've read most of the 'classics' I think. Herbert, Asimov, Tolkien, etc. and liked them for various reasons. Especially Dune and LOTR, but I really liked the Empire series too.

Of more modern stuff (well, sorta) I absolutely loving loved the Hyperion Cantos, all of Gene Wolfes Sun series (New, Long, Short, etc) and perhaps most of all, Malazan Book of the Fallen, although I would be hard pressed to say which of those three I enjoyed the most. I've read, and liked, most of Gene Wolfes books, with 'There Are Doors', being the exception, felt too incoherent to me. I value complexity of story and narrative alot, but it's not a must or anything (I recently burned through all of the Dresden Files in a couple of months, and while I enjoyed them I found it sorta 'easy listening').

Other stuff I've read that I liked, but wasn't completely blown away by like the ones mentioned above; William Gibsons stuff, Dark Tower, Robin Hobbs Farseer trilogy, Song of fire and ice (I think it's really good, but as good as Malazan, or Wolfes Sun series), other Dan Simmon books (like Drood and The Terror) were good, but didn't compare to Hyperion.

I also like old timey horror/thriller stuff (Lovecraft, Poe) and I've read everything Kafka wrote and enjoyed it immensely.

If I could, I'd read Malazan forever and ever, and I'm hoping to find something in that vein, but it's probably pretty difficult?

I heard Patrick Rothfuss' books might be good?

I started on the wheel of time and long while ago, but for some reason it just turned me off, but I guess I could give it another shot?

e: holy poo poo, perhaps I took the 'include lots of details' part of the OP a little too seriously, apologies for the long post

Brandon Sanderson's The Way of Kings is the beginning of an epic fantasy series that you might enjoy since you enjoyed the Malazan series, and the kindle ebook version is still free http://www.amazon.com/Way-Kings-Stormlight-Archive-Book-ebook/dp/B003P2WO5E There is a one chapter goon-described "tutorial" prologue that's unlike the rest of the novel and puts some people off, so if it does just try to read on and see if it hooks you then.

Otherwise, maybe Lies of Locke Lamora, a fantasy heist novel which has sequels but wraps up its plot nicely without any major cliffhangers. Have you read Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, & A Deepness in the Sky?

Obligatory mentions of Joe Abercrombie's First Law Trilogy (since you liked SOIAF) + stand-alones , or Ian Bank's Culture novels.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2014 03:21

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Prop Wash posted:

Amazon's holiday deals have started, so far it seems like the 3.5 star parade but definitely post the best deals u got here. I guess that Malazan book is the first in the series? I might finally take the plunge. Alloy of Law is also on there, which at $3 is very cheap for a tabletop sourcebook. Actually it looks like almost all of them are the first book of a series.

If none of those tickle your fantasy then there's always Hellhole: Awakening (the Hellhole Trilogy book 2), in the running this year for worst book or series name. Or Heaven Cent (book 11 of 35 in the Xanth series).

edit: Dawn by Octavia Butler is also on sale for $2, but apparently it's "literary fiction" rather than "science fiction."

Stay away from that Malazan book Night of Knives, it's bad and only a side novel to the main series.

The fourth Expanse novel, Cibola Burn, is also on sale for $3.25 http://www.amazon.com/Cibola-Burn-Expanse-Book-4-ebook/dp/B00FPQA4F0 I held off after early goon reviews, but I'll pick it up at that price.

Sanderson's Words of Radiance is also on sale for $3.75 http://www.amazon.com/Words-Radiance-Stormlight-Archive-Book-ebook/dp/B00DA6YEKS/ I know some goons here picked up the first one, The Way of Kings, when the ebook was free a few weeks ago; if you enjoyed the first one you should enjoy the second as well.

# ¿ Nov 29, 2014 20:24

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

General Battuta posted:

Thank you! I can't resist dropping the US one in here. Sam Weber does great covers.

It's not out until September. My favorite elevator pitch is still 'Game of Thrones meets Guns, Germs, and Steel.'

I liked one of the Asimov-authored prequels (Forward? Prelude?) pretty well when I was a kid. Is it actually poo poo? There's also a prequel trilogy by Brin, Bear, and...someone, and they're unutterably bad.

I like the US cover a lot as well, did you have any input as to artists or content of the cover art? I've read interviews and blog posts with authors who say that the publishers decide everything and the author just has to hope for the best, but then you get something like that one Charles Stross novel's cover art that's just cringe-worthy and I'd be anxious myself if I was an author that something like that could hurt my book's sales.

And when's the ebook edition going to come out? Same day? I only see the hardcover on Amazon.

# ¿ Jan 28, 2015 22:21

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Less Fat Luke posted:

There are a ton of official Kindle store books with awful formatting from the publisher. I've refunded a few of them for that reason

Same here. I don't find it a problem with anything written recently, but anything else is a crapshoot - it's a roll of the dice whether a publisher took time and care with the ebook edition, or did a sloppy OCR job full of errors and formatting issues. I often will download a sample of an ebook and skim it for formatting and other errors before I buy.

Reading the kindle version of The Lions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay right now, and there's sometimes random hyphens inserted in one character's name, "Rod-rigo," and while annoying, that's all I've caught and that's nothing compared to others. I had bought Sharpe's Tiger by Bernard Cornwell, and it was an awful OCR hack-job full of formatting errors and typos, misplaced sentences, but I didn't discover that until it was too late to return it. In the end I liked the story and would read more but screw paying anything more than a couple dollars for that kind of effort.

I enjoy Kay's fictionalized history fantasy novels, and Al-Rassan has been good thus far, will probably finish it this weekend. If anyone else has been interested in it, it's only $6.99 on US Amazon right now, less than when I bought it: http://www.amazon.com/Lions-Al-Rassan-Guy-Gavriel-Kay-ebook/dp/B00851M70C

# ¿ May 29, 2015 17:20

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

The Library at Mount Char ebook on US Amazon has been discounted to $6, this may not last long, so anyone who was interested in it don't wait to pick it up. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NRQRWAA
Goons here generally liked it didn't they? The sample was interesting enough that I grabbed it, though my virtual pile of unread ebooks is large enough already :negative:

# ¿ Oct 6, 2015 16:47

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

coyo7e posted:

I got it like a year or two ago? http://www.amazon.com/Excession-Iain-M-Banks-ebook/dp/B0167H685U/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1445303904&sr=8-1

This looks fishy to me, like someone not-the-publisher uploaded a scan. The sample has "Scanned by HugHug" at the beginning, which google search leads to some uploads of copyrighted books, not to mention the lack of any publisher information, and the cover picture is pretty bad quality even by ebook standards. On the kindle page it has "Sold by: Amazon Digital Services, Inc." not Spectra/Bantam/Random House that owns the paperback version. The first link on google for "Scanned by HugHug" leads to the text of Excession, for free! The same beginning text as the kindle sample.

In other kindle news, City of Stairs by Robert Jackson Bennett is down to $5 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J1ISJFA/
I can't really remember but I thought goons liked it, any impressions?

# ¿ Oct 20, 2015 04:03

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Robotnik posted:

Yeah, after reading it I was less surprised that he banged out two books. That one goes by QUICK. I can only assume that the kandra business started as a sideplot that eventually didn't work in the larger context, and instead of cutting it out in Sanderson fashion he just expanded it. That twist at the end honestly surprised me, though. Normally Sanderson is so damned straightforward.

Is there any consensus on Grace of Kings? I decided to read it after reading Ken Liu's translation of 3 body and figured his original stuff might be worth it. It feels very standard romance of the three kingdoms like some stuff feels ripped directly from Tolkien. Should I be reading Bridge of Birds Instead?

I didn't enjoy Grace of Kings. It started off interesting but it quickly devolved into an outline and summary of plot points of an epic novel - This happened, then this, and then this battle that they won and this other battle too, and all character development has stopped and here are some more summaries of plot events. I got bored of it. Can't remember if goons enjoyed it or not, only that some were excited for it.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2015 02:00

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

GrandpaPants posted:

On a whim I checked to see if there was a new Ted Chiang book coming soon on Amazon (there isn't), but the recommendations led me to Ken Liu, and his short story collection The Paper Menagerie Other Stories, as well as his novel, The Grace of Kings. The descriptions sounded interesting enough, and he has a slew of various SF/F literature awards (however dubious they may be nowadays), so I figure I should ask if they're worth checking out?

I heard lots of good things about Grace of Kings when it came out, but it didn't click with me at all. Here's what I said about it:

PlushCow posted:

I didn't enjoy Grace of Kings. It started off interesting but it quickly devolved into an outline and summary of plot points of an epic novel - This happened, then this, and then this battle that they won and this other battle too, and all character development has stopped and here are some more summaries of plot events. I got bored of it. Can't remember if goons enjoyed it or not, only that some were excited for it.

Also another goon's reply:

fritz posted:

I was getting bogged down in it, and then the first female pov character showed up and she was a Timeless Beauty and was instructed to use her seductive wiles for the good of her nation and peaced out.

I can't recommend it at all.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2016 17:50

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

holocaust bloopers posted:

Anyone here read Grace Of Kings?

Posts from earlier in the thread:

PlushCow posted:

I didn't enjoy Grace of Kings. It started off interesting but it quickly devolved into an outline and summary of plot points of an epic novel - This happened, then this, and then this battle that they won and this other battle too, and all character development has stopped and here are some more summaries of plot events. I got bored of it. Can't remember if goons enjoyed it or not, only that some were excited for it.

fritz posted:

I was getting bogged down in it, and then the first female pov character showed up and she was a Timeless Beauty and was instructed to use her seductive wiles for the good of her nation and peaced out.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2016 22:01

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

I wouldn't argue against any of the complaints against Wheel of Time or the Malazan novels, I'd agree with many of them, but I would say that I really enjoyed the last few Wheel of Time novels that Brandon Sanderson worked on, and was satisfied with the conclusion to the series. I don't know if I'd still enjoy it as much as I did if I started it fresh now considering I started reading it in the 90s, but the final three novels really wrapped up the story well and I have fond memories of it.

As for Malazan, yeah, it really needed more editor input in the last few novels, I can still remember being annoyed and skimming when getting over-long philosophical monologues that really shouldve been cut, but it remains probably the best fantasy series I've ever read. I'd probably recommend it more to friends if the first novel wasn't so poor compared to the others, even thinking it should still be read first.

And to conclude, Hieronymous Alloy is good to recommend Patrick O'Brian's Aubery/Maturin novels, I have never read anything that gave me such joy over the couple years it took me to read them all. The jargon was such a huge wall to overcome to enjoy the novels but the thread here on SA gave great advice to just go with it, as anything that the author thinks you need to really understand will be explained to the doctor character who knows nothing about the sea himself.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2017 23:01

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Rand Brittain posted:

And you can preorder book 6 on Google Play for... $2.99? Is that right?

Anyway, I'm currently hitting a rut on reading Last First Snow, which I'm not liking nearly as much as the previous three. Maybe I should take a break instead of trying to read the entire series too quickly.

I didn't like it myself, part of that is it being a prequel and there being no surprises I felt. Two Serpents Rise also didnt do much for me until near the end, but I really liked the first and third and have Four Roads Cross to read.

ihop posted:

One of the amazon reviews I read complained about a lack of major resolution in this book, as though maybe it was a setup book for a subsequent series. Did you feel this was the case?

This is what annoyed me about Jemesin's Fifth Season; I enjoyed it, and will pick up Obelisk Gate, but I didn't find the ending that satisfying. I'm getting more and more reluctant to pick up any sf/f series that's not completely released. At least it's not going to be a long wait for the last one to release later this year.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2017 03:35

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Nakar posted:

I have a sneaking suspicion that "everything is a series" is a matter of market forces and publisher preference and perhaps a reaction by aspiring writers to match those requirements. The ability to generate a trilogy or longer series is of value to publishers, since if they're going to do a three book contract it's probably demonstrable through their marketing research that people are more likely to pick up book 2 of a series they already read book 1 of than a new, completely distinct and separate work by the same author even if they enjoyed that author's work. I wouldn't be completely shocked if a lot of genre fiction gets pitched as its own thing and somebody asks the author if they can tweak it to allow for the possibility of sequels or to adjust the narrative to create a series or something. I think there may also be something to the way a lot of Internet writing sites (fanfiction places, etc.) often tolerate interminable stories where one chapter follows another in a narrative that never really ends until the creator gets bored; it'd be easy to imagine aspiring writers internalizing this.

If nothing else, it seems to be a problem that "normal" literature doesn't have as often, and arguably the problem is worse in some genres (thrillers, crime novels, mysteries, etc.) than in SF/F. They're not making books into series because they think the story works better, they're doing it to either chop something up into more marketable chunks or stretch something they think will be profitable out for a while.

A more interesting question, I suppose, is what books in the genre should've stood alone without sequels or a series.

I remember earlier discussions on this and market forces, and someone (General Battuta?) said genre fiction, like fantasy, doesnt sell as well as literary fiction, but those customers that buy and read fantasy buy a lot of it, so that's why everything must be an epic trilogy etc etc.

Also this quote was linked here when this subject was brought up before, on Iain Banks and his book sales:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/iain-m-banks-explains-he-wasnt-writing-science-fictio-509125322

quote:

An ex-neighbour of ours recalled (in an otherwise entirely kind and welcome comment) me telling him, years ago, that my SF novels effectively subsidised the mainstream works. I think he�s just misremembered, as this has never been the case. Until the last few years or so, when the SF novels started to achieve something approaching parity in sales, the mainstream always out-sold the SF � on average, if my memory isn�t letting me down, by a ratio of about three or four to one. I think a lot of people have assumed that the SF was the trashy but high-selling stuff I had to churn out in order to keep a roof over my head while I wrote the important, serious, non-genre literary novels. Never been the case, and I can�t imagine that I�d have lied about this sort of thing, least of all as some sort of joke. The SF novels have always mattered deeply to me � the Culture series in particular � and while it might not be what people want to hear (academics especially), the mainstream subsidised the SF, not the other way round. And� rant over.

The last fantasy novel I read was Jemesin's The Fifth Season, and while I enjoyed it overall the ending was disappointing and too much I felt was unresolved and haven't picked up the sequel because of that. Most of what I've read lately has been fairly stand-alone, even if they're part of a series, like one of the Craft sequence books, and one of the prequels to Lonesome Dove.

# ¿ May 8, 2017 18:42

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

TOR's ebook of the month is Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon the Deep, it's a good book and you should signup and get it for free http://www.tor.com/2017/05/09/torcom-ebook-club-may/

Only available through the 15th

I like its sequel/prequel A Deepness in the Sky a great deal, and you should read it if you like A Fire Upon the Deep.

# ¿ May 9, 2017 15:21

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

my bony fealty posted:

I have only read the first one but I recall: the protagonist takes a bunch of drugs and fights the re-awakened god(s) who were actually not dead, and wins, and then coups her aunt to become prime minister of not-India. turns out she and her family and their myth hero were related to the Gods all along! even though they hated them! I don't remember either really, and I liked it too.

I'm seemingly the only person who doesn't like A Fire Upon the Deep but I still think sf fans should read it. I've had the prequel sitting on my shelf for years and never cracked it because of how much I didn't like Fire, but haven't ditched it because one day I will read it (my least favorite part of Fire is the Tines and it lacks those entirely I think?).

There's no Tines, but they show up in the third book (which I've never read). If it's any impetus to read A Deepness in the Sky , it's much better than A Fire Upon the Deep. There's a few things that I think reading Fire first makes the prequel better, but not completely necessary to enjoy.

# ¿ May 9, 2017 21:38

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

How is the sequel Stiletto compared to The Rook? Stiletto is on amazon US's daily ebook deal; I enjoyed The Rook but I thought the ending was a bit of a let down with how anticlimatic it was, and while I normally wouldn't hesitate to spend a few dollars on an ebook, I have so many unread books in my backlog that I'm reluctant to add another that I may not get around to for months or more.

Antti posted:

Passage at Arms is a submarine thriller in SPACE and The Dragon Never Sleeps is a respectable attempt to squeeze the scope of the Dune saga into 500 pages. Glen Cook's SF is great.

I disliked Cook's Black Company, but Passage at Arms was really really good, very tense. He did the "submarine in SPACE!" perfectly.

# ¿ May 21, 2017 15:09

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

freebooter posted:

You really should (but start chronologically with Dead Man's Walk). The other thing that makes them similar to Aubrey/Maturin is that pretty much everyone - whether they're literary snobs or only ever read genre - raves about them. Myself included I guess. It's ironic they became such a celebrated TV series in America's heartland when McMurtry's intention was to dismantle the mythology of the West as the lovely, violent, sexist place it was, but eh, what can you do?

That is interesting - I did not know mcCullough ever wrote historical fiction!

I've read The City & The City and My Real Children. I wouldn't hesitate to describe them as fantasy so I don't think they belong in this category, but I do place them (especially City & City) in another category I'm trying to fill up which I guess you could describe as "fantasy not based in any way on Tolkien or general folklore." For example Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell is in no way Tolkien-inspired, but still takes place in a recognisable world of faery folk. I wouldn't include, for example, the Bas-Lag trilogy either because even though it's a very inventive alternate fantasy world it's still an alternate fantasy world - the kind of place that could have a map or an RPG campaign, if you get what I mean. I wouldn't include Little/Big because it's still based on folklore, just American folklore instead of European folklore.

This sort of book bleeds over into magical realism a lot, but I'm more interested in the less whimsical and more solid examples like The City & The City, which are nonetheless fantasy in possibly the most fundamental sense of the word: somebody's imagination, creating something out of whole cloth. The City & The City is the perfect example of this sort of thing but also a very unique accomplishment, which makes things difficult.

I think Lonesome Dove should be read first; it's the best one far and away, it gives all the backstory you need to know, and knowing the full backstory from the prequels will take the wind out of the sails of some of the heavier scenes and themes in the novel. There's also nods in the prequels to specific events in Lonesome Dove that will be completely missed if the prequels are read first.

I just finished Comanche Moon and it was the weakest of the lot, the plot meandered back and forth, and I could see someone reading chronologically and stopping after that novel, missing the greatest one in Lonesome Dove.

Also if you want a novel that "distmantles the mythology of the west" check out another novel with a celebrated film adaptation, Little Big Man.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2017 03:39

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Having read both I prefer Wheel of Time to Malazan.

Each series has its respective charms but each gets tedious in its own way too. Wheel of Time has a pretty conventional overall structure but good worldbuilding, some of the best written battle scenes in modern genre fantasy, and doesn't get enough credit for breaking some norms at the time it came out; by comparison with modern fantasy it's pretty dated, but by comparison with 1990's fantasy it was breaking down gender barriers and taking the genre in new directions (relative psychological realism in the fantasy protagonists, major female characters that pass the Bechdel test, complex multi viewpoint narratives, etc.) Without Wheel of Time there wouldn't be a Game of Thrones (quite literally; Jordan gave the first Song of Ice and Fire novel a jacket quote of "Brilliant" that catapulted its sales). The downsides are that it's way too loving long, that a lot of things that would be minor verbal tics become incredibly annoying over 14 800 page volumes (skirt smoothing, etc.), the gender stereotyping is more than a little painful sometimes even if he's trying to be egalitarian, and most importantly books 8-10 or so are just a morass of pointlessness to the point you're best off just reading the wikipedia summaries and skipping ahead to Book 11 again. Most of the ire comes from people who (justifiably) quit around book 9 or 10 and don't bother finishing it out.

Malazan on the other hand . . . ok I lied, I got to like book 8 and just couldn't keep going. There's probably a story in there somewhere and there seem to be a lot of neat-ish ideas floating around but mostly it just read like the author fed a thesaurus through a shredder and then rearranged the scraps to tell the story of his totally badass GURPS campaign, gluing the syllables together with spare apostrophes whenever they didn't quite fit. It does some stuff well, but most of what it does well was done better in Glenn Cook's Black Company series, and most of the rest seems to be hidden behind the author's cogenital inability to provide any kind of explication or exposition whatsoever. I guess I can see how it could appeal to a certain kind of puzzle-drive reader but that reader isn't me at all.

The real answer to your question though is Terry Pratchett's Guards, Guards and the character you're following is Carrot. He's a young dwarf who's been kicked out of the mine and sent to live in the big city because he's 6'5" and human and adopted and he doesn't fit in the mine any more. Then read all the Guards mini-series books, then the rest of Discworld after that.

You could also try Neil Gaiman's Stardust but it's just one book, not a series; get the edition illustrated by Charles Vess.

Deed of Paksenarrion mentioned above could also work if you don't mind the fact that it quite literally follows AD&D 1st Edition Paladin character progression, to the point that you can tell when Paksenarrion hits fourth level because she gets her Paladin's Warhorse.

You stopped at the point where Erikson had the same problem Jordan had, a lack of an editor reigning him in. There's a lot of bloat at that point in the series, monologues that just never end etc. I canno't de'fend the ridicu'lous nouns and apostrophes, but Erikson was always good at a thrilling climax, the page turning I-need-to-sleep-but-I-can't-stop-reading payoff at the end of a novel, and sad to say you missed some good stuff, because that's what book 9/10 feels to me to be for the series as a whole.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2017 15:26

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky was a good read that I think was recommended from here, here's a blurb:

quote:

The last remnants of the human race left a dying Earth, desperate to find a new home among the stars. Following in the footsteps of their ancestors, they discover the greatest treasure of the past age - a world terraformed and prepared for human life.

But all is not right in this new Eden. In the long years since the planet was abandoned, the work of its architects has borne disastrous fruit. The planet is not waiting for them, pristine and unoccupied. New masters have turned it from a refuge into mankind's worst nightmare.

Now two civilizations are on a collision course, both testing the boundaries of what they will do to survive. As the fate of humanity hangs in the balance, who are the true heirs of this new Earth?

The novel grabbed me and I could not put it down. I noticed the ebook verison is going for a STEAL at $0.99 on Amazon, great deal https://www.amazon.com/Children-Time-Winner-Arthur-Clarke-ebook/dp/B00SN93AHU

The sample gives a good preview, the novel switches between the human POV and the "alien" POV chapter by chapter, and paced so well there was never any "ugh want to read the other viewpoint," it was always compelling.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2018 04:25

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

What are goon thoughts on Guy Gavriel Kay's Tigana compared to his other novels?

I've really enjoyed most of his that I've read, notably Under Heaven, Sailing to Sarantium/Lord of Emperors, A Song for Arbonne. I recently read Children of Earth and Sky and was disappointed, and before that tried to read the first Finovar book and gave up after a third of it, it was boring. Children of Earth and Sky felt like half a novel, rushed and incomplete despite it's respectable page length.

angel opportunity posted:

Use of Weapons

This was pretty good, and probably my second favorite. This had much more of a space opera feel. There were tons of things going on, and it's been a few years since I read it, so I no longer remember all of what was going on. I think the main plot was a bit weaker, mostly because I no longer remember what the main plot actually was. It was still good enough, and the characterization felt mostly solid. The backstory woven in worked pretty well. My biggest gripe was probably what people like most about the book, which was the ending.

I didn't feel it was earned. I just don't buy that the protagonist was actually the bad guy all along. It's an issue where the author tells us that it was him, but going back and recalling everything you've already read with that knowledge in mind...it doesn't really ring true to me. He saw a way to work that cool twist in there, and he put it in, but it just strained my immersion more than anything else.

It has been years since I read it but I never thought that Banks was portraying the protagonist as inherently evil or bad, but willing to do evil or bad things in pursuit of victory at all costs, and the twist showing that he recognizes that in himself and at the end is horrified at himself for what he sees in the mirror of his life from what he has done and is deeply remorseful, and wants forgiveness/absolution. Having trouble putting my thoughts into words this morning but you get the idea.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2018 17:29

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

That novel Children of Time is back on an ebook sale at Amazon for $0.99, https://www.amazon.com/Children-Time-Winner-Arthur-Clarke-ebook/dp/B00SN93AHU

I really liked it, and a lot of other goons did too. I gifted it to a couple friends, but one (who liked the Expanse books) didn't care for it and quit after 1/4th to 1/3rd of it, didnt like specifically the "alien" viewpoint and that just blew my mind, as I thought those chapters were some of the most interesting and fun stuff of the novel.

# ¿ May 7, 2018 19:03

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Over a year ago I bought a paperback copy of Roger Zelazny�s Lord of Light because of this thread and loved it, and it came to my attention that an ebook version was released and it�s cheap at $3.35 right now, linked in case others here haven�t read it yet: https://www.amazon.com/Lord-Light-Roger-Zelazny-ebook/dp/B07MSJZDFX

# ¿ Jan 24, 2019 05:00

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I have a hundred bucks to blow on dumb fantasy novels, and I would like to get a series of dumb fantasy novels. I'm thinking of getting Black Company, because I can order the whole set of omnibhses for 84 dollars, but I'm open to suggestions! I'd prefer poo poo that's finished.

Fake edit I have Malazan

I liked malazan but did not like black company, I wouldn�t blow that much money on something straight off that I may regret after reading a bit and discovering it�s not my thing.

# ¿ Feb 3, 2019 08:23

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Grimson posted:

Went and dropped a five star on this book because I loved it.

So you'd say it stands up to Children of Time?

# ¿ May 17, 2019 17:42

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

I finished Guy Gavriel Kay's newest novel A Brightness Long Ago, and really enjoyed it. If you have read any of Kay's novels, yes, it follows the same bittersweet story beats as his others; this may be good or bad for you.

It takes place in the same world as some of his other novels (Children of Earth and Sky, Sarantine Mosaic novels, Lions of Al Rassan etc). I found his last one, Children of Earth and Sky disappointing by the end, I thought it had more story to tell. A Brightness Long Ago was much more satisfying. This one takes place in not-Italy and the city states there, with two feuding mercenary commanders who are city-lords themselves and a young man and woman who find themselves involved with these forceful commanders by choice or otherwise. If you are one who enjoys Kay's novels I think you'd be happy with this one as well.

# ¿ Jun 12, 2019 05:23

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

How does Look to Windward compare to the other Culture novels? I think it�s the only one I haven�t read.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2019 15:15

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Less Fat Luke posted:

I think it's absolutely great, one of my favorites.

GreyjoyBastard posted:

Could be my favorite Culture book. It has everything that makes them good, including the ethically questionable interventionism.

Kestral posted:

You know how a lot of Culture books have this pattern of, "well written travelogues of the people being hauled around by Special Circumstances / a Mind, while the Minds solve everything trivially at the last minute without any meaningful interaction by the ostensible protagonists" ?
Look to Windward is perhaps the pinnacle of this. It's great if you're interested in an extended look at what life as a Culture citizen is like, but not if you're looking for last-minute escapes from self-destructing Orbitals - or, really, for anything actually happening. Windward is like Banks' attempt to write a Becky Chambers novel. It is the Coziest Culture Book, and whether you'll enjoy it depends strongly on your taste for that sort of thing.

my bony fealty posted:

Look to Windward has a lot of neat sometimes subtle reflecting on how the Idiran war impacted the Culture and is the most melancholy of the series. It's good! The big floating island guy is my favorite part.

General Battuta posted:

I think it’s my fav too. It’s so bittersweet. The revenge weapon is also one of the sharper bits of text for arguments over Banks’ attitude towards violence and the ‘goodness’ of the Culture, which I enjoy.

Xik posted:

You spend time exploring an orbital and the psyche of a hub mind. It's fantastic imo but I guess it will depend on what you read the culture books for.

Whoa lots of responses, thanks. I was convinced and bought it, it will be next on my to-read list. A slower/cozy/questionably ethical/bittersweet/Culture examination sounds good. I finished the latest Expanse book a week ago and that filled my space action quota for a while.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2019 04:59

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Aw man, the end of Look to Windward Will you be my twin in this? If you will be my mate. That part hit me. Since this was the last Culture book I haven't read, I knew enough of the patterns to kinda guess where it would go, but that did not make it any less enjoyable.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2019 23:28

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 00:49

PlushCow: Oct 19, 2005; The cow eats the grass

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The best way to get recommendations is to read curated book discussion forums

!!!

I would've never read the Aubrey/Maturin series if it wasn't for this forum, now they're my favorite series of novels ever.

I think you recommended Oakley Hall's Warlock and it was great.

And now I'm just starting Downbelow Station. Lots of times someone will mention a novel here and I'll wishlist it on Amazon for later.

# ¿ Aug 19, 2019 21:25

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > The Science Fiction and Fantasy Thread: Read the OP, Bridge of Birds, and Murderbot

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