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MeLKoR posted:As opposed to meekly and ineffectually grumbling and protesting? If the left was perceived to still have any remaining teeth we wouldn't be in the world of poo poo we are today. Seriously. You want effective antifascist propaganda? Fascists getting chased out of their meetings and beaten up in the streets is a hard counter to their efforts to pretend that they are strong and forceful and "manly".
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Aug 10, 2013 13:44
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Jedit posted:No, if racist elements weren't taking advantage of social and economic turmoil we wouldn't be in the poo poo we're in. "Fighting" fascism by sending out your own squads of skinheaded boot boys isn't going to fix it, it's just going to put violent scum on both sides. And at that point we are lost, because there will be nobody fighting fascism any more - just a difference of opinion in who should receive the brutal beating in order to "preserve our unity". Is... is this an argument that all political violence is fascism? You understand that literally every political theory or position other than a handful of pacifist theories with virtually no actual real-world representation believes in using violence to achieve its ends, right?
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Aug 10, 2013 13:51
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Why are people acting like fascists are a legitimate political theory/group? They're not. They don't have policy differences. For fascists violence is not a tool like it is for legitimate political positions, it is an end. Murdering and dominating everybody other than the in-group is the entire point of fascism. Fascism is not correctly characterized as politics, but as organized crime using politics as a pretext. We should no more offer fascism the protections and rights we offer to political positions and philosophies than we should the Mafia or the Aryan Brotherhood. All fascist organizing is organizing for mass murder. All fascist propaganda is incitement to mass murder. Pretending that fascism is a valid political philosophy and pretending that its adherents are anything other than criminals and would-be criminals is suicidal.
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Aug 11, 2013 05:30
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Omi-Polari posted:Why can't you just use the state's law enforcement and intelligence forces to monitor fascist parties? Someone said earlier that Germany is the country that's least likely to see the fascists gain any sort of influence at the political level again, and it's my understanding that the German state has a pretty intense apparatus set up for monitoring and controlling them. In the US at least, the cops don't really care. They're too busy monitoring and infiltrating Islamic and leftist groups to care about people who also hate Muslims and leftists. Look at how liberal states treat fascist organizing compared to leftist organizing and figure out the difference.
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Aug 11, 2013 07:00
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Chamale posted:No, the point is that if we try to combat "fascism" by immediately resorting to violence, it is too easy for legitimate political movements to be labelled as fascism and destroyed. Only if your understanding of fascism is so thoroughly and uselessly facile that you think the definition of "fascism" is "any political organization which uses violence".
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Aug 11, 2013 11:44
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Unluckyimmortal posted:Civil war, basically. It is, more or less, what happened in Spain. It didn't happen in Germany because the Nazis were simply too strong by 1933, and despite the fact that Hitler basically told everyone what he was going to try in Mein Kampf, not enough Germans really anticipated the specific chain of events that would follow. "Bash the fash" doesn't mean a thing when "the fash" is some double digit percentage of the people in your country, predominantly younger and male. At this point, crushing the Golden Dawn would be a job for the Greek army, or a foreign army even, nobody else is going to be able suppress them. Yeah, the point of antifa work is stop fascist organizing from getting to the point where armies have to get involved. You can either pull the weeds as they appear or you can come into your garden after months and go "where did all these weeds come from? I guess there's nothing to be done."
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Aug 12, 2013 01:46
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Unluckyimmortal posted:By the time government apparatuses are helping out, well, the place is overgrown, I think. Right, and if there's anything that can be done to avoid getting to that point, it's imperative to do so.
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Aug 12, 2013 02:02
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Communist regimes kill people, as do liberal regimes. In both cases, the killing is a means to an end. It serves a purpose. In a fascist regime, and I feel like there's several posters not getting this, killing is a purpose. Violence and force and domination are means to liberals and communists. They are ends to fascists. Liberals and communists kill and dominate people to take power or achieve political ends. Fascists seek power in order to kill and dominate people.
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Aug 12, 2013 05:53
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Organized political violence is kind of what drives the world, though. A world without organized political violence is a fantasy. A pleasant fantasy, possibly, but a fantasy nonetheless.
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Aug 12, 2013 06:34
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Baron Porkface posted:So you are saying violence is an integral part of you politics then? I'm saying violence is an integral part of all politics. I mean, sure, there's pacifists out there, but pacifist beliefs are generally either blind to the violence that enables them to exist or naive as all hell.
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Aug 12, 2013 07:58
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:If fascism is palingenetic populist ultranationalism with a violence fetish and a fixation on mythical ultra-realities, then libertarianism is not fascist, they're just douches. How do you call them nationalist at all, let alone ultranationalist? Are you talking about the libertarianism that libertarians like to pretend is real or libertarianism as actually practiced in the US?
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Aug 13, 2013 07:50
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International socialism is so weak as to be nonexistent in its power but you'd never know that to listen to the American right.
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Aug 15, 2013 04:32
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ReV VAdAUL posted:While Jonathan Meades is not a great person this is a pretty good and amusing look at Nazi architecture and their desire to hark back to various idealised pasts. It is interesting that the Nazi desire to return to rurality (cities are wicked places in much right wing thought) didn't get that much attention. If the topic interests you, the book Ecofascism: lessons from the German experience will be of interest to you.
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Aug 17, 2013 15:22
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darthzeta88 posted:France is in so we wont go in alone. And we China is kinda territorial. So I honestly do not know if we will wage or not. But I am stocking on supplies like food and water just to be safe. What, exactly, do you see as sparking a war?
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Aug 31, 2013 01:18
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worse than bronies posted:What does china need to buy? Not as much as they need to sell.
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Aug 31, 2013 02:16
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Liberal democracies use violence to attain their goals literally every day in every capitalist democratic state, city, etc. There is no such thing as a viable political ideology which does not use violence to attain its ends. If you're mad at fascists and communists for using violence but don't care about the ongoing systemic brutality used by liberal democracies to enforce and attain their ends, you're a hypocrite who should admit that the violence is not what you really object to.
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Sep 8, 2013 07:05
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It's funny how Leninists and people who hate communism agree that only Leninism and its descendents are real socialism.
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Sep 8, 2013 18:23
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Warbadger posted:Honestly I haven't seen as much correlation to specific ideologies and piles of skulls so much as I have with strong, centralized governments seeking to impose major ideology-based culture shifts on their populations. Yeah, nobody in D&D likes Thatcher.
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Sep 8, 2013 19:27
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Raskolnikov38 posted:This is actually one of the (many) contradictions in fascist "philosophy." They believe that a permanent state of warfare must exist so that the weaker elements of the master race are constantly bled away. If there are no more enemies to fight (such as the Jews in your example), then they'll begin fighting/slaughtering the weaker members of said master race until only a small group remains and then the human race goes extinct. It's like stack ranking, but for humanity itself.
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Sep 9, 2013 08:55
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SirKibbles posted:I'd say in due to the fact that there are less fascists, than the fact that they aren't tolerated. There's also the fact that fascists decimated Europe in a war. Add the fact that America's "Golden Age" is viewed to be kickstarted by beating the Fascists and it makes sense. The American right, who essentially own the American political narrative, have been working hard for decades to convince everybody that the Nazis were communists, so I'm not sure this quite applies.
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Sep 9, 2013 16:43
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Can we maybe discuss modern fascist movements instead of having this thread colonized by the Marxism thread?
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Sep 11, 2013 16:31
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:Anyone that tries to shut you down for the "race > class" thing will do so out of their own insecurity and not because of their strong anti-fascist opinion, I'm thinking. What a tremendously predictable well-poisoning. quote:I'm actually very interested in what this thread has to say about that, since this has been one of the main blocks over which many of my arguments with people have stumbled. It's not like it isn't an active debate topic within 'our' circles either, to the extent that whiteness is considered a class an sich for all intents and purposes: This continues to be the fascism thread and not the Marxism thread. For gently caress's sake, not everything is about you.
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Sep 12, 2013 09:45
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SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:I'm responding to his post, he brought up the race > class idea as a fascist and tied it directly to his fascism. Where did anyone mention Marxism? You're the one bringing up left-wing organizing here.
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Sep 12, 2013 10:10
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Roisman is almost certainly a Jewish name (though he may have converted to Christianity, like Zhirinovsky), odd that he'd be popular with Nazis. Then again, don't go looking for logic on the ultra-right. You see this in the West, too- since 9/11 one of the big debates in white supremacist circles has been whether the Jews are evil ZOG plutocrats undermining white society or front-line fighters against the real enemy: Arabs.
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Sep 14, 2013 20:57
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Mans posted:Letting yourself be killed by the fascists. As a non-liberal leftist, you're as bad as them. As the saying goes, there's no such thing as a fascist march, only police marches with fascist auxiliaries.
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Sep 20, 2013 08:30
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Tias posted:Oh no, they are way more open about hating their allies. That said, from a non left-radical viewpoint I can get that it's confusing, but when one holds a revolutionary viewpoint, the ways and means of said revolution becomes pretty important and grounds for heated debate. A holder of a non-revolutionary viewpoint has it way easier, 'cause you can rest assured that nothing you opine on matters to the people who make the decisions. That also true of a revolutionary viewpoint, at least in most places.
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Sep 24, 2013 08:15
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Organized crime with a sheen of ideology as justification is pretty much the norm for American fascist groups like the Vinlanders and Hammerskins, isn't it?
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Sep 26, 2013 11:15
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Beating up and killing fascists is a rebuke to the core of the appeal fascism, which is the idea that fascism is strength and power. Demonstrating that fascists are not strong and in fact are subject to being beaten or killed essentially refutes the core of their appeal.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:30
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reignonyourparade posted:So if NOT beating up Fascists lets them into power, and beating up Fascists lets them into power, what the hell is your suggestion? The liberal solution is to let the fascists take power and revel in your moral superiority in the moments before the bullet enter your head.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:16
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Omi-Polari posted:No, it's not. Given the last few decades of liberal complicity in the dismantling of social safety nets and the extension of neoliberal economics, what exactly is the liberal plan supposed to be, then?
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Nov 2, 2013 04:21
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Hey yeah, Emden, what kind of music do you listen to?
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Nov 2, 2013 04:42
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 posted:He won't say because everytime he puts it on bad meanies swamp the jukebox with the Marseillaise I read that several of the actors in that scene were refugees and that much of the emotion caught on camera wasn't just acting.
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Nov 2, 2013 05:35
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rudatron posted:Like, let me put it this way: I don't see why you would, if you were the enemies of political enemies of GD, attack GD and then not politicize that attack. Perhaps it was political and they're simply letting the GD worry about it for now.
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Nov 2, 2013 10:46
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SedanChair posted:It's important to bear in mind that all the violence you deal out to fascists will be meted out in turn to the most helpless and innocent members of the community: elderly people, street vendors etc. That doesn't rule out violence against them in every situation, but it's worth thinking about every time you find your violent fantasies tending towards the glib. Yes, because fascists only become violent in response to violence, rather than holding violence as necessary for the health of the individual and the state.
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Nov 2, 2013 20:10
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Peven Stan posted:Why not adopt a technocratic and rational approach towards dismantling fascism that begins with comprehensive education and reserves clandestine violence for all but the worst offenders? That would be great, except the capitalist ruling class doesn't want a functioning society.
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Nov 2, 2013 21:44
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Liberal politicians collaborate in building societies whose conditions lead to fascist organizations while liberals scream that anybody who resists fascists is no better than a fascist themselves. Funny, except not.
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Nov 3, 2013 02:26
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Kieselguhr Kid posted:But then people will see them as victimised and they'll only become more powerful! There's literally no response to fascism that doesn't play into fascists' hands!
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Nov 3, 2013 12:32
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Even if a group did have a lower IQ (and even if we're taking IQ seriously), it wouldn't mean that each individual member of that group has a lower IQ than any given individual member of the other group(s) and thus discrimination would not achieve the goal of increasing the IQ of your workers or whatever. Basically racist discrimination, even if it was founded in genuine inferiority, would be a failure because it applies collective statistics to individual people.
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Nov 11, 2013 20:24
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Pierogi posted:Poland is the unsung hero of this thread. If even we can overcome our troubled history and embrace fascism and nationalism as the one true way, who can say that it can't happen in their country? That is dedication to Poe's Law right there.
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Nov 12, 2013 12:47
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Grouchy Smurf posted:Just in case that a person resistant to sarcasm read this, I have to point out that the Roman salute is, indeed, not Roman. "Ave, Caesar! We who are about to die must secure a future for the white race!"
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Nov 12, 2013 21:09
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