A return of Fascism in Europe?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > A return of Fascism in Europe?

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

FWIW, Ukraine, Schweiz and Belarus has also seen explosive membership growth in neo-nazi organizations and street gangs. It's all loving over :smith:

# ¿ Aug 10, 2013 10:44

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 13, 2024 08:17

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

And yet the only organization to be charged with terrorism is the antifascist organization Keerfas. I guess they'll stop killing people if we just give them a cross enough reprimand, eh? :sigh:

# ¿ Sep 18, 2013 16:55

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Rent-A-Cop posted:

In a thread about combating fascism the discussion is about why communists are utopian idiots and liberals are collaborationist scum. Does the right have this same problem?

Oh no, they are way more open about hating their allies. That said, from a non left-radical viewpoint I can get that it's confusing, but when one holds a revolutionary viewpoint, the ways and means of said revolution becomes pretty important and grounds for heated debate. A holder of a non-revolutionary viewpoint has it way easier, 'cause you can rest assured that nothing you opine on matters to the people who make the decisions.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2013 08:07

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Certainly, but the revolutionary viewpoint has the potential to abolish power structures.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2013 10:22

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Regardless, I'm positively surprised they felt the pressure to quit, and didn't just dig in and prepare for a coup or something similarly unpleasant.

# ¿ Sep 25, 2013 06:42

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Maybe emboldened by the failed attempt in Sweden (masochists, those nazis!), neo-nazi goons attacked a demo here in Denmark last week, 28 got arrested and the rest fled after a firm response.

# ¿ Dec 16, 2013 16:32

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Certainly. I'm with Libert�re Socialister, the anarchist-communist federation in Denmark - http://libsoc.dk .

For dedicated antifascism, you may want to hook up with our Antifascist Action, but they're sort of a closed group - http://www.antifa.dk

# ¿ Dec 27, 2013 16:01

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Install Windows posted:

Historical anarchists have very little to do with anything.

This is wrong on so many levels that I don't really know where to start. What do you think happened in Paris 1968, the Spanish Civil War and anarchist Ukraine?

# ¿ Jan 13, 2014 19:14

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Install Windows posted:

Brutal crushing, brutal crushing, and brutal crushing. Nothing world-changing.

No, I'm sure living in full communism with increased economic growth, living standards and almost perfect political liberty didn't seem world-changing to those fortunate enough to be a part of it, broseph :rolleyes:

You can repeat the "LOL if it's good, why did stalinists crush it" all day, it doesn't really make authoritarian "communism" any more of a good thing.

# ¿ Jan 15, 2014 15:03

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

E: ^^^^ Inclined to agree, but anarchists were a driving force in the revolution, and if nothing else I hope we can agree that soviet russia was world-changing..

Install Windows posted:

That's the key, seemed world changing. But it wasn't actually changing the world. though it's really funny to claim Paris 1968 was full communism with increased economic growth because jesus christ.

I didn't say it wasn't good while it was happening, I said they didn't end up changing anything. These are different concepts, but I know you're both using English as a second language and imbued with the hopeless romanticism (in the movement sense) of typical anarchists so it may be hard for you to understand.

Anarchists have been pivotal to the workers movement in nearly every country, and directly responsible for the increases in living wages, rent decreases and, oh hey, also a driving force in major socialist revolutions such as the Russian one! You really don't know what you're talking about.

Also, Mans, you still don't know poo poo. There's a great difference between insurrectionist anarchism (bomb-throwing, assassination anarchism) and mass anarchism, which is what anarchism is today and has been for most of its history.

# ¿ Jan 15, 2014 15:29

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

But don't trust socialists either! No one can be trusted, the revolution needed will be made by.. <-- forums poster Mans.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Citation needed.

Here's your huckleberry: http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/append4.html

Also, I can really recommend the collected letters of Maurice Brinton, for a good and thorough analysis of how Lenin militarized the Russian trade unions and crushed actual communist currents in the country.

Nonsense posted:

All anarchists were executed for being annoying by the Bolsheviks. I don't think they were really around to 'win' anything in Russia.

Amazing username/post combo, sir!

# ¿ Jan 16, 2014 09:28

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

ekuNNN posted:

This is dumb and wrong. The anarchists were only betrayed after they were no longer necessary to secure the revolution, in 1918 Anyway, this slapfight between Anarchists and Communists is the dumbest derail we've had in a while.

Anarchists were at the heart of the socialist labor movement from USA to Russia at the turn of the twentieth century - ignoring their role against both industrial and street fascism is many kinds of wrong.

It is a derail, though, let's end it here.

# ¿ Jan 17, 2014 15:28

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Mans posted:

Do i really need to pull out the "if anarchists were the bread and butter of the worker's struggle then how come the best they can come up with was firebombs, getting beaten by cops and failing to organize a single revolutionary state?" argument again?

You have an amazing capacity to ingore the involvement of communists, socialists ,social democrats and trade unionists in the worker's struggle to the point where you sound like a 14 year old claiming that everything good was the result of anarchism and everything bad the result of not-anarchism. Get a slightly better grip of reality please.

\/\/\/\/ If it was anyone other than him yes, but he's the man who literally defends anarchism was the only participant of worth on the workers struggle and when asked to explain what an anarchist society would entail effectively admited that it would have a state but with a name other than state.

I have done no such thing, and I've never claimed that communists, socialists or trade unionists (who, incidentally, were dominated by anarchists from 1900-1930) didn't participate. The sum total of my argument was directed at you and the goon who said "historical anarchism doesn't matter", since anarchists dominated the labour movement that created the 8 hour day, international labor struggle day, spontaneous communist revolutions in Russia, Spain, Portugal and Ukraine, and attempts at the same in Germany and France, as well as a lot of places outside of Europe.

You know so little about the history of labour and mass socialism that it hurts, and this flailing to convince us otherwise frankly demeans the both of us.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2014 12:32

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

I have, read Black Flame vol 1: The Revolutionary Class Politics of Anarchism and Syndicalism. Labor unionism all over the world followed mass anarchism in practice if not in theory. It's even free as pdf!

http://libcom.org/files/Lucien%20Van%20Der%20Walt%20and%20Michael%20Schmidt%20Black%20Flame%20vol%201.pdf

# ¿ Jan 18, 2014 13:07

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Well, the sum of documentation takes several entire chapters, so I'd really just recommend reading it.

I'll be glad to dig out the relevant info when I get home to my copy, though.

# ¿ Jan 18, 2014 13:31

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Obdicut posted:

For me "What did the anarchists do in the Russian Revolution" is a blank. I assume this is unintentional.

Try reading Black Flame instead. It's pretty clear you already made up your mind about what you believe, but I guess leninist revisionism is cool like that :sigh:

# ¿ Jan 20, 2014 15:22

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

OBAMA CURES ALAWIS posted:

For Hot Topic anarchy.

See I made the right choise in ignoring him.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Reality! Now with Leninist bias!

You know you could actually post some loving proof that anarchists played a role in the revolution other than Kronstadt and a Ukrainian bandit instead of lamenting a supposed conspiracy to hide the "glorious successes" of anarchism.

And I did - I actually posted a link to a pdf of Black Flame, so you wouldn't have to drag your fat LF rear end out of the house to read it.

I'm back at my copy, so let me pick out the relevant pages. First, Chapter 5 on page 149 (chapter is called "Anarchism, Syndicalism, the IWW and Labor"):

[it is] "necessary to confront a number of traditionel arguments that deny a connection between anarchism and syndicalism, and in some instances, even suggest an opposition between the two currents."

Such claims can be based on two ideas, that the ideas are based on conflicting ideals, or that which claims that the roots of revolutionary lies outside of anarchism, either in "revolt against reason" or in classical marxisms. Both are wrong.

On page 150, the claims of the Revolt Against Reason (RAR) current is identified and debunked (Sorel thought he was the pioneer of syndicalism, but the claim is evidently baseless as he came later than it's birth.) - the whole heart of RAR is that syndicalism is a "mood" rather than a strategy, and really has nothing to do with revolutionary syndicalism.

On page 153, under the heading "The First International and the First Syndicalists", the first syndicalists are quoted as having their inspiration in the "Bakunist or federal" wing of the first international. Reading on, the view that anarchism and syndicalism was linked was actually "commonplace" from mid-1890s to the mid-1920s. Claims to the contrary are marxist revisionism.

From these roots grew the IWW (further detailed from p 159, "the IWW and Syndicalism", CGT, USI, CNT (and even to Portugal, China, Japan and South America, as detailed in 162 and on) and other mass socialist currents responsible for living wages, shorter wook weeks, collective bargaining and an end to the worst excesses of the ruling class.

If there is a particular claim or period that got your panties in a bunch, just ask.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2014 13:01

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Enjoy posted:

How about the highly specific claim that anarchists "dominated" the labour movement which caused the German revolution

They didn't, but they were a part of it.

Dusz>> Did you get dropped on your head as a kid a lot, because :drat:

that's some shitposting.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2014 15:37

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

There is some confusion over how large a part they played in the Russian revolution to be sure, but in the initial uprising many anarchists or libertarian communists which we can rightly associate with a mass anarchist movement, did participate.

As I said, the collected works of Maurice Brinton (AK Press) had a wonderful and well-sourced collection of papers on the militarization of the trade unions and the purges of libertarian and democratic currents in the country.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2014 16:04

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Jan 22, 2014 16:44

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Because linking a 250+ page book and demanding the other the party read it for an internet argument is not reasonable you rear end.

There is actually and its one I should have stated more clearly than my snarky citation needed post. I don't know much of anything about the history or labor unions other than they include all branches of the left, perhaps you can link some specific examples of the actions of anarchists in these unions.

That's because the burden of proof is on the person making the retarded blanket statement that historical anarchism has done nothing, a claim that is patently hosed up to even the most passing student of labour history - not me.

quote:

However, the point I really wanted to drive at was your claim here:

Other than the anarchists that participated in the taking of Moscow, which someone else had to link, you haven't provided anything to back this up at all. Your argument thus far appears to be that whatever good came from the October revolution is because of anarchism for ~~~reasons~~~ and then the anarchists tried to stop it when it went wrong and failed. Which is the loving point fishmech made in the first place, anarchism has some good ideas but has itself has not accomplished much outside of participating and/or leading in trade unions and holding for a while in Catalonia.

E: to clarify fishmech's point was that anarchist haven't accomplished much if anything not that all good from the October revolution was because of anarchists.

And no one is saying that, just that the initial insurrection was an anarchist revolution - down-top government, soviet councils that federated rather than dominated, and the trade union as a polity-organizing force. It was, for all we can explain, an anarchist revolution since crushed with utmost force by Lenin and Trotsky.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2014 09:02

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Fascism is either a 'pure' state of total Mussolini or it is currents displaying a majority of fascist traits. The latter is the only sensible use of the words in these days.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2014 10:17

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

V. Illych L. posted:

We see this in Denmark, in France and elsewhere - proto-fascist parties (or parties veering on bona fide straight-on fascism) are massively on the rise already in response to the european crisis, and they're gaining confidence.

For now, most right-populists are sort of fixed in this weird racial-libertarian paradigm, but I doubt that this will last.

On the subject, senior parties in our crypto-fascist party recently came out and argued openly for stopping muslim integration completely. There was zero backlash whatsoever, and they recently went from third to second largest party in the nation, though that is more directly related to the current historical crisis of leadership in the government coalition.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2014 08:22

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

loving hell :sigh:

# ¿ Feb 6, 2014 23:12

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

And it cannot be stressed enough that Danish People's Party is explicitly state racist, and bears identifiable fascist traits, and has a history of cooperation with neo-nazi hoooligans on the street.

Hell, it's only a month ago they suggested stopping all immigration and asylum from muslim countries, again.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2014 12:12

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Rutkowski posted:

Another nazi attack last night, this time in Malm�. One of the attackers is Andreas Karlsson of Svenskarnas Parti who just returned from supporting the nazis in Ukraine.

Came to post this, 4 people stabbed, and one is still in a coma, though stable. It would appear Swedish intelligence recenet claim that local nazis going to riot in Ukraine would not lead to violence back in Sweden, was wrong.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2014 14:36

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Yeah, considering the enmity between ultra sets, this was actually pretty heartwarming.

Anyway, some people I know went to visit, and it seems that he really is stable, but remains in coma. I really hope he'll be okay when he comes to :ohdear:

# ¿ Mar 10, 2014 17:17

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Kristol did go on record saying that stalinism had some pretty good ideas though, right? The hole rising surveillance state/patriot act elicited some crazy remarks from him IIRC.

E: ~~Also, my morning paper says Front National is poised to take 5% of votes, can anyone confirm or deny this?~~ - sorry I'm blind.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 08:01

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

A Buttery Pastry posted:

And just to give an update on Denmark, the Danish People's Party would now be the second largest party in Denmark according to the most recent poll, at 21% of the votes. On top of that, one of our big "political experts" has joined me in thinking it's not entirely implausible for them to become the largest party by the next election. I guess the best we can hope for is them fumbling when they can no longer act simply as opposition or just a supporter of the government, and actually have to be in a position of taking hits for their failures.

This is truly horrifying news, but I don't think we'll see DFs supremacy lasting more than one election. As you note, they thrive on being contrarian fucktards, and though they are one of the most media-savvy parties out there, you can only call for a christian jihad so long before the danes tire of your poo poo.

What is much worse as I see it, is that they will allow some really racist statements to become acceptable in the public discourse, giving members and justifications to the violent neo-nazis we have on the street level.

# ¿ Apr 2, 2014 10:01

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

or Danish?

# ¿ Apr 20, 2014 21:30

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

First outright neo-nazi demonstration in Denmark for a couple of years went off swimmingly this saturday. And by that I mean they got their asses kicked so bad the cops had to throw them in paddy wagons and ride them out to avoid bloodshed.

Cue Danish media and celebrities falling our themselves to call this a gang war started by violent extremists on both ends of the political spectrum :sigh:

# ¿ May 13, 2014 14:11

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Randler posted:

Technical question, do neo-nazi demonstrations fall under the freedom of assembly/freedom of speech equivalents under Danish law or are their demonstrations illegal?

They are legal, but the police has to approve of them, same as with all demonstrations. However, freedom of assembly guarentees the right to protest, even if police don't approve and a number of demonstrations have carried out succesfully in spite of such decisions.

# ¿ May 15, 2014 13:23

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Danish People's Party shaping up to become the big winner of our EU parliament election -_-

No English links as of yet, but the exit polls place them at 23+%

# ¿ May 25, 2014 20:00

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Considering the nazis themselves imported millions of primarily slavic workers to work inside Germany, probably not a lot.

# ¿ May 27, 2014 15:36

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Tony Jowns posted:

British Labour, French Socialists, Greek PASOK... like, there's a party which fits this bill in every second country in the EU?

Yeah, the Danish SD party, the Social Democrats, were created with the express aim of creating a socialist society through parliament, and were responsible for nearly every great social program Denmark is known for, and in their recent period as ruling party they slashed everything to give tax cuts to the richest.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2014 17:34

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 13, 2024 08:17

Tias: May 25, 2008; Pictured: the patron saint of internet political arguments (probably)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

Also, nazi goons attacked several voting places. Things are really heating up.

On the plus side, the other Swedish parties seem to refuse parliamentary cooperation with the fascists (ironically leading to every Danish pundit screaming about undemocratic Sweden).

# ¿ Sep 30, 2014 20:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > A return of Fascism in Europe?