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rkajdi posted:There's a reason why Occupy got broken up by cops, but the same kind of action is lacking at a Tea Bagger rally The Tea Baggers paid for the proper permits, dispersed at the agreed upon time except in a few rare cases where they overstayed by a few hours, and certainly never tried to set up actual permanent encampments. That is the reason why nothing happened to them with the cops.
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Aug 13, 2013 17:09
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LP97S posted:The level of Nazi control over industries during World War Two was absolutely pathetic. When Albert Speer was appointed Minister of Armaments and War Production in early 1942, he was shocked to discover that major armament plants were only working one shift, when compared to the round the clock shifts for industry of nearly every other country involved in the war. Hitler and his cronies were so up their own asses about their military strength, that they had told the industries to keep on working on consumer goods. Because clearly all of Germany's enemies would quickly fall. It wasn't a "pathetic level of control" - they were explicitly told they wouldn't need to be controlled, and thus none was exerted at all til a while after Speer got in and was finally able to convince Hitler & Co.
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Aug 15, 2013 16:01
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breaklaw posted:Fascism won't return, just anti-immigration and a slowing of LGBT right progress will be co-opted by various right parties. It definitely needs to be remembered that most of Europe needs LGBT rights progress pretty bad: 
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Aug 15, 2013 19:16
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Jedit posted:Kind of shocking that the Russian Federation has managed to fall below Azerbaijan in the gay rights stakes. Keep in mind that these ratings are from BEFORE Russia effectively illegalized saying anything good about homosexuality publicly (and also before the UK and France authorized same-sex marriage, but just that alone is only good for bumping them both up a few percent) That is also Russia, the Kaliningrad Oblast.
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Aug 15, 2013 23:49
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Omi-Polari posted:
Would you say it's rather like how "fundamentalist Christianity" is in that way, modernist but rejecting modernity? The variants which have been around since the late 19th century that is.
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Aug 16, 2013 00:43
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HEGEL CURES THESES posted:I'd say that's a great description, because fundamentalism's core elements (text as literal story, appeal to science, etc) are all modern. This doesn't mean fundamentalist christianity is fascist, though, just that a whole lot of ideas that were begun around the same time have similar key concerns. Yeah to be clear I'm not saying "fundamentalist" Christianity is fascist, just that it comes out of the same quite modern concepts while claiming to reject modern things as corrupt.
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Aug 16, 2013 04:39
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That seems more like you trying to pull a "no true fascist" thing though.
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Sep 8, 2013 23:27
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Cerebral Bore posted:God forbid that ideologies actually have defined meanings and tenets. Fascism has tended to have that the least. And there are very few inarguably fascist entities that managed to stick around long enough to make the policies for after all the "trash" have been cleared out become apparent. Like I guess if you wanted to be really technical about it you could consider the ongoing infanticide of birth defect or otherwise undesirable children to be "war" but that's about as far as the fascists would be likely to go once they've established complete extermination of everyone outside the desired group - something that in itself would take a really long time to accomplish, due to needing to ferret out them all from hiding.
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Sep 8, 2013 23:41
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Cerebral Bore posted:Have we already run out of excuses? You know, for explaining away the fact that western liberals literally hired the fash to be their henchmen in post-war Europe? Right, because Stalin had his own fash he brought with him to run Eastern Europe.
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Sep 9, 2013 16:25
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Civilized Fishbot posted:How does it work to crack down on a party with sitting members of parliament? Would the PMs of Golden Dawn still get votes? What sort of historical precedent exists for this? They probably have to disclaim membership and might lose any committee positions, while becoming independent members.
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Sep 19, 2013 04:49
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YF-23 posted:You guys do not realise this do you? Get it in your heads, the police and the establishment are all too happy to beat up on the left. You want the left to attack the Golden Dawn, but if such an attack can be spun off as unprovoked there will be no hesitation, the state machinery will move from anti-left propaganda to actual repression. What you're calling for is not just an attack on Golden Dawn. It's also suicide. When the system succeeds in de-legitimising the anti-fascist forces, that's when the true bloodbath will begin. It's especially odd because late Weimar Germany is right there to show us that roving bands of leftists who beat up people got regarded as more dangerous than the literal Nazis and other rightist groups who went around beating up people. Anyone with half a brain should be able to look at that and notice that.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:24
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staticman posted:Violence is ONLY good as a last resort, and I realize that if leftist and the oppressed retaliate, it's gonna be a full blown extermination against them. There must be better solutions than violence and peaceful protesting, as GD and the police will steamroll both. Cool story, however it's completely irrelevant. By all means, attempt to re-enact the mistakes of the Reichsbanner Schwarz-Rot-Gold and Roter Frontkämpfer-Bund, just don't be surprised when somehow the cops once again end up arresting way more leftists for it then literal fascists.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:49
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Cute how you ignore the whole thing that was going on with Stalin attempting to pull the strings in the KPD at the time, which the SPD were obviously not too keen on.
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Sep 21, 2013 18:16
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Yeah you might want to reread that so you can comprehend it this time. It's almost like acting out as a leftist was a great way to be killed in Germany and previous attempts to enact full revolution in that manner were brutally repressed.
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Sep 21, 2013 18:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:What exactly were their mistakes? If you mean getting killed, then yeah there's no getting around that when fighting Nazis. If however, you mean the Nazis gaining real power, I'd lay the blame for that at the feet of the Hindenburgs, Meissner, Schleicher and von Papen for being absolutely retarded with their politicking. The "fighting leagues" of the political parties ended up allowing everyone to paint each other as dangerous violent people terrorizing the streets. All of these groups, from all sides, did a lot more "pre-emptive" and just plain unprovoked violence than they ever did plain self-defense. This combined with existing distrust and anti-democratic sentiment (and it should never be underestimated just how much of that there was then! tons of Germans were all about reducing things back to the pseudo-democracy available under the Kaiser's rule) to make "we must protect ourselves from those leftists" even more of the German public than otherwise - this was also why rightist unprovoked violence tended to be glossed over. Mans posted:I'm pretty sure he's claiming that the collaboration of the SPD with the right is what condened the left. Stalin is somewhat irrelevant because the SPD was actively working with the right since at least they gave their unanimous support to the first world war. The SPD generally saw it as the hard right's desire to bring back Kaiser-esque monarchy in control and the KPD's ever increasing tendency to obeying Stalin as essentially the same thing - and since their entire point is to have democracy obviously they didn't want either. You're not "basically" defending yourselves when you have organized street gangs who go around starting fights just for the hell of it, which is what all of the "fighting leagues" did, sorry. Again, we're talking about the lead up to Hitler here, which involved over a decade of stuff past the German civil war. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 00:06
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No, they literally weren't. I don't think it's really asking you too much to actually look into what the SPD at the time was - it contained both a very monarchy friendly wing, which Ebert was a part of and which had been in control of the party under the Empire due to the fact that the Kaisers were perfectly happy to interfere with political parties as well as the other wing which had participated in just those revolts and insurrections that Ebert covered putting down. Over the course of the Weimar period, most of the monarchy friendly wing drained off to the various restorationist/monarchic parties. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 00:54
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Enjoy posted:The above poster said liberals and centrists, anyone who participated in the Ruhr uprising wasn't a liberal or a centrist. Then by your own argument the SPD was not a problem.
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Sep 22, 2013 01:11
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Captain_Maclaine posted:They've got a similar, though more muted one, wherein traditional conservative parties tend to view fascists as useful idiots to be used and then marginalized/disposed of, and fascists tend to view traditional conservatives as romantic nationalist morons who never get anything done. Among themselves, fascist parties also have a hard time cooperating due to national identity chauvinism being a pretty defining factor for fascist, and also as historically the elite of any given fascist party tend to be cretins with will to power, but little ability to competently and effectively use power once obtained. There is also that during particularly the interwar period of Fascism, most of the countries where the Fascists eventually got power were either still monarchies or had just recently had a monarchy deposed. Most of the conservative parties involved were in favor of either continuing and strengthening an incumbent monarchy or in restoring a strong monarchy. They tended to view the fascist obsessions with blatantly authoritarian leaders as being perfectly compatible with bringing back powerful monarchies. Your typical conservative political party in interwar Europe would have loved to have a Hitler so long as that Hitler had a crown and a history of recent inbreeding. Similarly your fascists tended to be just peachy with having puppet royalty for legitimacy where necessary.
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Sep 22, 2013 01:34
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Mans posted:The KDP was increasingly obeying Stalin because they were loving shot at on the streets by proto fascists and afterwards by actual fascists while the SPD did nothing by tip toe along the issue. They gave unanimous support for the first world war and for the curshing of the uprising of post-war. Of course the KDP would try to find foreign allies, they could actually search for one back then instead of slowly being stabbed to death one by one while liberals claimed their deaths to be tragic but their defensive actions to be as bad as fascist action. And that very foreign ally made them persona non grata in Germany. Plus you're still conflating late Empire SPD and late Weimar SPD pretty heavily even though they were at heart quite different parties due to the realities of power at the time.And the cute refrain returns that everyone except the KDP were liberals, which is actually quite adorable even though it has nothing to do with history.
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Sep 22, 2013 18:02
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Itious posted:Here for instance: Yeah, essentially the Nazis miscalculated that they could conquer all their nearby enemies within a few years and then have those cars for all the good little Aryans who'd saved for them. Additionally, parts of it had been scheduled based on Hitler's earlier plans to start conquering the world in the early 40s, but he jumped his own gun by the events of 1939. Shouldn't be forgotten that part of the plans for cars was to have much of the production of the components for it be based on slave labor by undesirables and using resources in lands they'd seized.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:49
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Captain_Maclaine posted:In fairness, in 1923 it sorta did. Germany was in the depths of the hyperinflation crisis and Hitler et all looked to just be the latest pack of Putschists goobers to come along and flame out. That's not to excuse in any way the failure to hold him, and the others, to proper account, but I don't think we can blame the Weimar coalition too much for failing to predict the future of the then-barely significant NSDAP. Some of the Nazis and SA involved got longer prison sentences then Hitler himself. If I remember right one or two of them even stayed in prison long enough to be freed when the Nazis finally took over in 30s. That aside, part of the cost saving measures in that era involved shorter prison sentences on cost saving grounds, and of course the still heavily conservative judicial system, largely inherited from the Kaiser's men from before the war, were far more willing to give conservative appearing folks that benefit of the doubt in sentencing. Incidentally, during this period in Germany the court system often used a "lay judge" system, where a combination of a few professional judges and a few ordinary citizens would jointly decide the judgement. And the kind of people most frequently selected as lay judges in that area at that time tended to be quite fond of the Nazis in particular. Nazi Party headquarters at the time were raided though, and the party's official newspaper was also banned. Several years later the party would be reformed and the paper brought back too, but that was again pretty much par for the course for how such movements tended to get treated back then. DynamicSloth posted:19 men died, they were plainly a threat to civil order, they were not yet an existential threat to the Republic itself but the state of the judiciary made that an inevitability. 20 men: 16 Nazis and 4 policemen. Conveniently enough most of the Nazis who had directly killed policemen ended up being killed by other cops in the midst of the fighting and most of the rest were thus able to escape murder charges. The country as a whole at the time had all but legalized the existence of numerous and violent paramilitary groups that could basically roam the streets with impunity, on all political sides. The Communist party's fighters and the party itself was allowed to openly operate after all, and they had actually succeeded in taking over several areas for some amount of time, after all! If you don't get yourself banned for successfully managing that, I don't see how you could expect the Nazis to get banned for what amounted to a drunken riot.
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Sep 29, 2013 23:54
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Enjoy posted:Actually the communists had their leadership murdered by government-aligned fascist thugs. And the various right wing thugs frequently had their leaders murdered by their own opposition, your point please?
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Sep 30, 2013 05:32
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Enjoy posted:That they were could not "roam the streets with impunity" and were not "allowed to openly operate". They were murdered. So this is you right here admitting that you know nothing of Weimar Germany. Because the KPD and Rotfrontkämpferbund continued to operate right up until Hitler himself finally got around to banning them. Essentially, you're arguing on the basis that Germany skipped directly from 1919 to 1933. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 21:35
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Enjoy posted:The repression of the genuine left continued throughout the Weimar period. I'm not trolling you, I'm just pointing out that the Communists didn't suddenly stop existing when some of the leaders were killed, and in fact remained a viable and quite numerous group throughout the Weimar period. It is straight up counterfactual to act like they weren't. And of course you're pulling the "if you weren't KPD you weren't a REAL leftist card" which really should have died decades ago, since it's the dolchstoßlegende of the ineffectual modern day "leftist".
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Sep 30, 2013 22:48
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Cerebral Bore posted:
They were still hanging around doing stuff though. Not to mention the party itself. Sorry, but you don't get to lie about how it all worked. And it's extraordinarily chidlish of you to call victim blaming on all this. Guess what buddy, the left of Weimar Germany was not a cowed sniveling wreck that did nothing, and to act like they were all hounded away well efore Hitler is straight up a-historical. And especially when people like you try to weave up this narrative that there was no left but the KPD, or that liberals did in the Republic when it was the straight conservative anti-liberal (in the sense that liberal democracy or democracy at all was viewed as incorrect) that did it.
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Sep 30, 2013 23:40
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Are you sure you aren't thinking of Switzerland for the basic income thing?
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Oct 11, 2013 17:41
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LP97S posted:What the in name of gently caress are you talking about It's a joke, he put the dates ahead 40~ years or so to indicate that socialism stuff didn't wait til then.
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Oct 11, 2013 20:00
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YF-23 posted:Maybe you don't realise it, but Greece is not the USA. We do not live in any sort of relative prosperity. In a country with over 30% unemployment, where living standards have been going downhill for the past four years and keep going down like that, and in which the political elite has lost pretty much all credibility, people are sympathising with the nazis regardless. They are trying to pass themselves off as the good boys who will take Greece back, that they're on the side of the oppressed and the victimised. Legitimately victimising them on top by committing loving murder is only going to reinforce that. They want to be hated and excluded from institutions because that reinforces their image as an untainted, pure group that's just looking out for Greece's best interests. It's funny too, because the Real Actual Nazis of 20s and 30s Germany made excellent use of portraying their members being beaten up and killed to win sympathy for themselves. You'd think some people could learn from history, but apparently that's too much to ask.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:35
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EndofGoogle posted:So the alternative is to let them go and beat in the heads of immigrants and leftists? Hell, the government let the leader punch and kick reporters with impunity when they let him out on bail. Radical-Pacifism hosed over the Italian left in the 30's. I'm pretty sure the left got hosed over in Italy in the 1930s by the fact Mussolini had achieved prime ministership in 1922, quickly got himself a one year grant of near-dictator status, and then went on to systematically dismantle all remaining restraints on him and the fascist party which was pretty much done by 1925.
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Nov 2, 2013 02:51
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Pope Guilty posted:Beating up and killing fascists is a rebuke to the core of the appeal fascism, which is the idea that fascism is strength and power. Demonstrating that fascists are not strong and in fact are subject to being beaten or killed essentially refutes the core of their appeal. Didn't work in Germany.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:35
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Gonzo McFee posted:Did by 1945. Might I ask where you'll be getting ten million man armies from in Greece? Oh and extensive foreign occupation, don't forget that.
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Nov 2, 2013 03:40
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rudatron posted:Are you suggesting that an alternate strategy of 'don't let by sympathize with them' would have worked? Honestly, it just seems like the nazis weren't beaten up enough. Germany's problem was that it was full of people who were more than happy to support racial politics on top of other things because they were already pretty loving racist and xenophobic. Don't forget the widespread support for authoritarian policies by more than enough of the population too. The Germans weren't a blameless people spoiled by a few bad apples. Gonzo McFee posted:Perhaps something should be done before it gets to that stage then. Well see, the last time people did the thing you're suggesting, the Nazis took power. Ambrose Burnside posted:Seems like an awfully big gamble to swear off violently resisting fascism forever based off of a sample size of: one (1), and a sample with innumerable complicating factors simultaneously at play beyond just "violence against fascists/public sympathy for fascism" to boot. Well the good news is no one was going to be violently resisting in the first place so nothing has changed there. "When they threaten to gain power" would be way ahead of what Golden Dawn has ever actually had in Greece, just saying there. Most people would agree that attempting to violently resist normal gangs tends to be a bad idea. Frankly modern fascists at best rarely get to beyond the status of "lovely gang". Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 03:55
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Gonzo McFee posted:What evidence do you have that they wouldn't have come to power anyway? So this is you admitting that it accomplished nothing other then make some people feel good for a bit. Glad you agree with me!
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Nov 2, 2013 04:01
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Gonzo McFee posted:What evidence do you have that they wouldn't have come to power anyway? History actually happened, they actually did come to power, this was including that people beat them up. In fact, them getting beat up and even killed is in the Nazi anthem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzeNj1vlzAk Sorry that it hurts you to admit that beating them up didn't help.
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Nov 2, 2013 04:04
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QUILT_MONSTER_420 posted:Yes it was much better to shoot them. So when are you going to advocate for Greece to be invaded and occupied?
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Nov 2, 2013 04:07
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Gonzo McFee posted:Should have kept going till they were all dead. They couldn't do that, because those people didn't have enough support. Meanwhile the Nazis had most of the other right wing paramilitary organizations to call on for support. Left wing and centrist Weimar paramilitaries totalled about 350,000 members altogether at their peak. Meanwhile the Steel Helmets alone numbered 500,000 easily. reignonyourparade posted:So if NOT beating up Fascists lets them into power, and beating up Fascists lets them into power, what the hell is your suggestion? Don't allow the material conditions that swell Fascist support to continue. In other words, you need working governments. This was the key thing that among others kept America, Czechoslovakia and the UK from going totalitarian, but allowed half of Europe to do it before Hitler even started making them do it. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Nov 2, 2013 04:16
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The Inquisition also created a rather extensive underground culture of people who were outwardly Christian but still carried on Jewish or Muslim religion behind closed doors.
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Nov 5, 2013 20:19
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No, the Inquistion did not work. The Spanish Inquisition ran for about 80 years. It took another couple centuries of extreme repression to actually eliminate stuff, and then primarily by straight up execution. Incidentally, the Inquisition and its successor policies were only interested in establishing a single line of thought that everyone would agree to. It would not be amenable to using the same tactics to only stamp out one particular school of thought you dislike while still allowing free dialogue among multiples you don't have a problem with. MeLKoR posted:Did Stalin have any problems with internal dissent? Yes he did. So did Hitler for that matter.
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Nov 5, 2013 21:07
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MeLKoR posted:The Inquisition ran for centuries in both Spain and Portugal. No, the Inquisition proper ran for about 80 years. The restrictions against other beliefs continued for centuries. That is because most of the sentences were against people who were Christian but minorly stepped out of line, not against out-and-out infidels. It was ineffective, because the only people it really "changed" were ones that it killed. Putting people a few miles outside the borders didn't change their beliefs and there was extensive continued belief in things deemed heretical. You know, just like how Hitler wasn't very effective in getting rid of his "undesirables" until full scale murder was sanctioned against them. Which is why the entire concept is ineffective.
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Nov 5, 2013 23:07
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SaltyJesus posted:Anybody who thinks ideas are bulletproof should try to find a modern Cathar. Not only did the Cathars oppose war and believe that reproduction should be avoided as much as possible, two factors that made continued survival in those times a bit of a problem on their own, they were also ruthlessly slaughtered and massacred. Essentially they would have died out on their own slightly slower then the Shakers almost have, even without the armies of Catholicism helping them along.
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Nov 5, 2013 23:44
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