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Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SeanBeansShako posted:

1853 Enfield (Rifled Musket) Mid 19th Century: 2,000 yards. Most of the time you are certain to hit something standing still now.

Lee Enfield (Bolt Action) Late 19th Century: 3,000 yards. :getin: especially with a scope in the trained hands of a marksman.
That's wildly optimistic. Maybe an expert marksman with a tuned rifle and match ammo on a perfect day could reliably hit at those ranges, but even that's a stretch.

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Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

a travelling HEGEL posted:

If you're cavalry: Go towards them, stop a way in front of them, fire your pistol/carbine at them if you have one (this is period-dependent, of course), run away, run toward them, stop a way in front of them, fire your pistol/carbine at them if you have one, run away....
Alternately: Overcommit, and get absolutely mauled by massed musketry and then meander off the field having totally spent your horses.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

INTJ Mastermind posted:

Sounds like a lot of :effort:. Why not just park a pair of T-34s and an artillery piece or two on a river barge / ferry and blast away?


Why build an entire tank with all the fiddly track and engine bits when you can just slap a turret on a boat?

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

ArchangeI posted:

If you are 70 and still in the job of stabbing dudes in the face with a pike you did something fundamentally wrong along the way.
If you manage to survive 50 years in the stabbin' dudes in the face business you're obviously doing something right.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Slavvy posted:

Or was it all down to the Athenian navy being badasses off-stage somehow?
The allied Greek navy beat the tar out of the Persian navy at Salamis. Xerxes really didn't like the idea of being trapped in Greece if the Greek navy decided to go make trouble in the Dardanelles so he took the bulk of his army home and left one of his generals with a smaller force of elite troops who were defeated a year later at Plataea.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Arquinsiel posted:

As has been demonstrated by both sides during WWII, sometimes having the toys AND the time still wasn't a guarantee of success. Stalingrad, Leningrad and Metz could theoretically just been pounded flat but none were.
I got a chance to visit the Battle of Stalingrad museum a few years ago. They have a lot of aerial and ground photography of the city before and after the battle, and it was pounded as flat as the technology of 1942 could make it. That place looked like the surface of the moon by February '43.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Fangz posted:

You aren't remembering your physics right. F = Mass x Acceleration. No way to calculate the force without knowing how long the acceleration of the bullet took.
I did a little back of the envelope math and got around 95 ft/lbs of recoil force. But I am also bad at physics.

810 grn bullet, at 3000 fps out of a 35lb gun.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Godholio posted:

Taps is the signal for lights out, Retreat is still played on US bases at the end of the duty day. The specific time is up to the installation commander, but it's usually 4:30 or 5pm. My last base changed it to 5 because it was completely loving up traffic flow as everyone raced to go home (if driving, you're supposed to stop during Reveille and Retreat).
AirForce.txt

On Navy bases it's at sunset goddamnit. Also nobody goes home at 4:30.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

LeadSled posted:

I've been on a book binge lately, and having burned myself out on the second world war was wondering if anyone had recommendations for books on WW1. My knowledge of that conflict doesn't extend much beyond trenches and mass slaughter, and it can't be much more depressing than Beevor's Stalingrad.
I challenge you to find any book ever written more depressing than Johnny Got His Gun.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

NAVSEA made a series of videos on the subject of how common building materials stand up to gunfire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSqdTLLZBWw

The tl;dr is that the average structure is concealment, not cover.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

that depends on what you mean by 'average'. The big brick row houses you can find in DC, Baltimore, and Philly (among other places) are more than 1 layer of brick, and the tenements you'll find in UK cities are also drat thick. I mean yeah if you are living in a house with load-bearing drywall then bullets are going to zip through, but not everyone does.
Most construction in the US is at best one layer of brick over plywood with some insulation and drywall behind it. Even thick brickwork isn't going to stop concentrated fire for long though, and anything heavier than small arms is going in one side and out the other.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Dec 5, 2013

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Alchenar posted:

cf. Afghanistan, where literally everything in the southern half of the country is effectively a small-arms proof bunker.
Yeah, I guess there's something to be said for building your house out of dirt.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Pornographic Memory posted:

Yeah but that's an artillery vehicle, essentially, that isn't really meant to be shot at, whereas a tank that can't withstand small arms fire is pretty much retarded, since then what's the point of putting the rockets on a tank instead of just a truck or half track?
I wonder how much thrust you'd need to get one of those little BT series tanks airborne.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

uPen posted:

Man that dude standing on his cape is a huge dick.
That makes me think that pushing over a knight would almost be funny enough to be worth it considering that after someone helps him up he'll probably stab you.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

a travelling HEGEL posted:

If it's not jousting armor, it'd be your rear end, since combat armor was less unwieldy than you'd think; there's one early modern king of France (forget which one) who could do backflips in full harness.

veekie posted:

If you're in armor which makes you incapable of regaining your footing, something has gone seriously wrong.

Rodrigo Diaz posted:

Considering that knights were avid wrestlers and they could do somersaults and leap into their saddles in armour he'd probably rip your balls off.
Oh I know, but the armor pictured above with that big rigid skirt looks like it would make trying to stand up after you fell down a pretty tricky prospect. I don't expect anyone ever wore anything into a real fight that they couldn't actually fight in.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

AATREK CURES KIDS posted:

There are methods of comparing baseball players across different eras, and it turns out that even Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig would only be about as good as an average modern major-league player. Simple athletic activities, like sprints and freestyle swims, have seen steadily improving times since the first modern Olympics. I find it hard to believe ancient athletes had better overall fitness than modern stars, although of course they were probably better trained at specialized activities of their eras.
It's amazing how fast fitness science has improved. The average 100m time in the NFL today was a world record a few decades ago. Professional athletes of our generation would be multiple event gold medalists in an Olympics of the 60's.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

SeanBeansShako posted:

For London, I strongly suggest the Imperial War Museum.
I'll second this. It's a pretty great museum. If you're at all interested in Roman stuff taking the train down to Bath for a day is totally worth it. The Roman Baths are great and there is a free walking tour of the city that is good fun if the weather isn't awful. Greenwich is also fun if you want to nerd out about boats and/or the prime meridian.

Azathoth posted:

As someone who knows nothing about firearms, could someone please explain to me in what circumstances such attachments would end up being used? It looks to me like they tried to turn a pistol into a heavier weapon, but I don't understand why someone would carry around all those attachments instead of just carrying a second heavier weapon entirely.
They tried to turn a pistol into a submachine gun. Those attachments would be necessary to have any semblance of control firing that thing on automatic. The general theory behind things like that is to issue them to troops for whom a rifle would be inconveniently bulky. Generally the stock in a production model would be a folding wire frame deal or double as a holster. The whole idea of issuing subguns sort of fell out of favor with the introduction of assault rifles and their carbine variants.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Dec 31, 2013

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Koesj posted:

Well they can do lots of stuff with tiny rifle calibers in machine pistols these days!
FN and H&K seem to be locked in some sort of bizarre contest to see who can develop, produce, and successfully market the tiniest cartridge. I fully expect Sig to weigh in soon with some kind of insane 2mm PDW spacegun.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

Could someone please give me a little run-down on why the US intervention in the Vietnam War became such a clusterfuck boondoggle? I know the conflict is a ton more nuanced than that since its basically one long period of war from the First-IndoChina War to the Fall of Saigon but something would be nice.
The US intervened to support a government no one liked and thus ended up fighting pretty much everyone. There was never really an objective beyond maintaining the status quo, and something something communism. Eventually the American public got sick of feeding lives and money into a giant pit with no end in sight and no goal.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

uPen posted:

You could use this to describe Korea without changing a single word.
I don't think there was ever a serious insurgent presence in South Korea. The major blunder of the Korean War was underestimating the will of the Chinese to turn a regional brushfire into a major powers slugfest. Probably because until very recently China had been a massive humanitarian/political/military shitstorm and nobody in the West was paying attention when they decided they were a Player.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jan 2, 2014

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Tevery Best posted:

Every game about naval combat in the Age of Sail I've played featured round shot, chain shot and grape shot. My question is were there any more types of ammunition in use? How did artillery munitions develop over the centuries?
There were a lot of variations on a few basic types of shot. Round shot was primarily used for damaging hulls and masts and unseating guns and could be heated in large furnaces to produce an incendiary effect. Grape, canister and langridge (or langrel) shot was murderous when used against exposed crews at short range. Chain and bar shot were designed to cut rigging and tear sails. Explosive shot was used rarely but it's poor reliability combined with the high trajectory and low velocity of the guns that fired it made it unsuitable for naval combat. Some ships were armed with siege mortars for shore bombardment, though they were far too unwieldy for use against other ships.

The first cannon shot was carved stone. Early guns were often artisan-built one-offs of widely varying sizes and calibers so stones had to be hand carved to match individual guns. This was extremely labor intensive and made logistics a real problem. As metallurgy improved multiple guns could be cast to the same dimensions and so iron shot could be mass produced in standard sizes. Though stone shot remained for some time in areas that lacked the industrial capacity to produce iron shot and modern guns.

Iron round shot remained the mainstay of naval gunnery until the development of the Paixhans and Dahlgren guns in the in the early to mid 1800's. A gun that could fire a reliable and safe shell at high velocity over a flat trajectory made wooden ships obsolete and ushered in the age of the ironclad.

As technology in metallurgy and chemistry progressed naval shells were loaded with progressively larger quantities of progressively more powerful explosives. A race between shells and armor continued until the Second World War when it became clear that aircraft were going to replace the big guns.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Slavvy posted:

So, what was the purpose of basically razing a city to the ground? Like, what would their mentality have been? It seems like an unsustainable lifestyle, to me it would make more sense to keep raiding so you never run out of food/riches/whatever instead of utterly destroying the source of your livelihood.
Long term thinking is the exception rather than the rule. Preventing an army from looting everything and then burning the city to the ground after they take it is also really difficult.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

VanSandman posted:

Wait, I think I'm going to need a flowchart for this one.
Imagine four Hitlers on the edge of a cliff.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

KildarX posted:

So how does NATO actually work as far as chain of command? Lets say for some reason Russia invades Germany during the cold war. How do the NATO countries coordinate? Is it pretty much the nations sign off on a general to head strategic planning?Some sort of council/parliment?
If some real WW3 type poo poo goes down the USA is in charge.

For the non-Clancy scenarios the countries involved work something out. Usually some kind of rotation where each major participant brings in a headquarters unit for a set amount of time and then rotates out. Sometimes it boils down to whoever brought the most dudes gets to be boss.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Jan 15, 2014

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

KildarX posted:

I saw earlier someone wanted an effort post about freshwater navy stuff. This has also peaked my curiosity as I really don't know much of this stuff. As far as I am aware what you have now is small attack boats right nothing like Iron Clads during the ACW which where heavily armored heavily gunned is this correct? Do countries even have a fresh water navy any more it seems you'd do better with close by airbases and attack helos?
The US Navy made extensive use of river monitors converted from large landing craft during the Vietnam War. A few modern navies, most notably the Brazilian Navy, still operate large river gunboats. They're an extremely useful platform for providing fire support in a region with few passable roads but an extensive river system.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

PittTheElder posted:

Not effective at all in a real modern battle; WWI style artillery would blast it to poo poo overnight. As a bunch of guys with light arms hiding from other guys with light arms and mortars? Probably pretty great.
To be fair, Monte Cassino proved that blasting the poo poo out of a castle on a hill doesn't necessarily make it any less of a fortress.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Alchenar posted:

Monte Cassino is a hill (Monte is Italian for 'Mount'). And there's no castle on it, there is a monastery.
Monte Cassino was also a battle wherein artillery blasted the poo poo out of that monastery. Turning a big stone building into a big stone rubble pile doesn't really make it all that much worse as a defensive position. Modern precision artillery could certainly make defending a spot like Krak des Chevaliers untenable, but the Syrian Army doesn't have access to modern artillery.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Alchenar posted:

It does kill everyone in the defensive position though. If you let enemy troops back into the rubble after you shell it then you have a problem because you now have to combine urban combat with earthquake disaster recovery, but everyone in a castle when it gets shelled is going to die.
Depends on how deep the basements are and whether or not you can actually hit it consistently. Modern heavy guns with experienced crews will certainly reduce anything that isn't moving or shooting back to rubble in short order. Lighter pieces in the hands of someone like the Syrian Army or Hizbullah are going to be a lot less effective though. The Krak may be 900 years old, but a stone wall 9m high and 2m thick is still decent protection from anything but a direct hit by heavy artillery.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Azran posted:

At the very least you could say that controlling the Cabo de Hornos (southern-most part of South America, links the South Atlantic with the South Pacific) would be important, but even then it wouldn't be precisely a NATO affair. :v:
Except that the British can't actually control anything from the Falklands. Having a few tankers and a handful of Eurofighters chilling on that rock isn't scaring anyone.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Azran posted:

That reminds me, what's the situation with Gibraltar? I've heard it has to do with controlling the entry to the Mediterranean, but it really, really sounds like something out of a high school history book.
Gibraltar was and to an extent still is the gateway to the Mediterranean. It is one of those rare spots that is a good harbor, a fantastic natural fortress, and just happens to be sitting right on top of what was for a very long time one of the richest trade routes on Earth and a vital military choke point. You really couldn't ask for a better spot to put some big guns.

While time has diminished it's military importance somewhat it's still a formidable fort situated on an important waterway. The fact that the USN is such a massively overpowering force sort of makes controlling major sea lanes an obsolete concept for anyone else though.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Arquinsiel posted:

Also relevant is that having a port and holding in Gibraltar requires that the straight be patrolled which conveniently gives the holders a good idea of what ships go in and out. Such as, for example, the Black Sea Fleet. The Suez Crisis was in part about a similar issue.
The Black Sea Fleet is never going to sneak up on anyone. They have to literally sail through the middle of downtown Istanbul to get out into the Mediterranean.

But there is always the chance the French might try to take over the world again so it pays to keep an eye on them.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Azathoth posted:

Japan took a look at invading Hawaii, but determined that even if they did manage to take the island, there was no way they could keep it supplied. Hawaii couldn't grow enough food to sustain itself, and would have required a massive logistical operation to keep supplied, and the Japanese was just not up to the task of supplying the island. Even if they had tried to supply it, the constant flow of supply ships in and out of there would have made a very tempting target for U.S. submarines who, as has already been pointed out, absolutely wrecked Japan's naval supply lines.
There's every chance that the invasion of Midway would have been a total disaster even without the naval battle. Coordination between the IJN and IJA was atrocious to the point where they regularly sabotaged each other at every level. IJN support of ground operations was basically nonexistent and when it did happen was almost completely ineffectual. Neither the IJN nor IJA had enough landing craft to conduct major amphibious operations and what they did have was often hopelessly obsolete. The IJA had no modern armor and practically no anti-armor doctrine or equipment. To my knowledge the Japanese never conducted a single major opposed amphibious landing.

Basically there's a strong possibility that the defenders of Midway would have massacred the Japanese landing force and the IJN would have been forced to either lay siege to the island or leave.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

The Merry Marauder posted:

You have to make a distinction between amphibious landings and amphibious assaults. The IJA was capable at the former, indeed, innovative (check out the Shinshu Maru), but decidedly not prepared for the latter.
For a look at how Japanese amphibious assaults went there's the invasion of Wake in 1941. It took them two tries and in the process 450 US defenders managed to cripple a cruiser, sink 2 destroyers, 2 transports and a submarine, totally destroy 2 heavy patrol boats and inflict a 4:1 casualty ratio. That's against a surprise attack by a massively overwhelming force, and with no armor, 4 operational aircraft, and only a handful of coastal defense guns.

The Japanese invasion plan for Midway was suicidal. It actually involved stopping at the reef to disembark troops from landing craft into rubber boats because none of the landing craft could cross the reef. This was supposed to happen in broad daylight a few hundred yards in front of a dug in defending force with heavy automatic weapons, tanks, and dozens of concealed 3", 5" and 7" guns. Not to mention air support and submarines loving about all over the place.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Apr 6, 2014

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Boiled Water posted:

:stare:

How in the world did they manage that?
Taking ships in range of shore batteries is generally a really bad idea. People often forget that low-lying islands can be a total bitch to hit. Wake Island's highest elevation is 20'. It's a drat small target and shells that hit it at a shallow angle were liable to skip right off the top. In a ship vs. island duel the island has a lot of advantages. It's a smaller target, it won't sink or burn, its gunners have a perfectly stable platform to fire from, and nobody has to worry about running the island into a reef.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Libluini posted:

That's kind of interesting. Do you mean they were used as some kind of improvised thing, were people climbed over the mill and swung lamps around or something?
Presumably the vanes could be marked either with lights or painted panels and then rotated into different positions to signal. Even without marking the vanes you could make a number of simple signals just by changing their position.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Rockopolis posted:

The coral reef keeps getting mentioned. Ecological catastrophe aside, I take it they're not the kind thing you can blow up and sail through?
Or is shooting/bombing/torpedoing them a big "I will be advancing slowly in single file, please don't hit the coral when you shoot me" kind of sign?
Coral doesn't sound all that tough, but that's because most people are picturing the delicate living corals of nature documentaries. That's only the top of the reef. The rest of it is a solid stone wall that goes from bedrock to a couple feet below the surface at high tide. That poo poo is solid, and it's usually at least 50' wide. Blasting a channel into a reef is doable, but it isn't the sort of thing you knock out overnight with some divers. We're talking about, at minimum, weeks of underwater demolition work and tons of explosives. Not the sort of thing you can pull off while people shoot at you.

You hit a reef with your ship and you're lucky if you just get stuck. You try to put swimmers or men in small boats over it in anything but a glass-calm sea and a lot of them are going to end up dead. In even a moderate swell anything in the water gets pounded mercilessly onto the top of the reef.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Another point to make is that until fairly recently the only way for a captain to know how deep the water was was to sail over there and drop a weight on a rope. Nobody but a government spends a lot of time meticulously charting a place like Wake or Midway and governments don't like to share. If you were loving about around someone else's island there's a good chance that whatever charts you had were hopelessly out of date or even intentionally misleading.

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Slavvy posted:

Why are there a bunch of dudes just dead in a field? There don't appear to be any artillery craters nearby, and machineguns weren't widely used in the civil war AFAIK. Were they just told to charge across a bare field or something?
Walking across open fields in straight lines was how wars were fought for a couple hundred years. A line of guys standing shoulder-to-shoulder is pretty much the optimal formation for delivering fire to the enemy when you're armed with flintlocks. If you're working with smoothbore muskets those two opposing lines are going to be practically within rock throwing distance of each other, although by the ACW rifled muskets and the Minie ball had opened that range up to a couple hundred yards.

Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Apr 18, 2014

Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Slavvy posted:

I understand all this but didn't they have semi-modern rifles, not muskets? As in, I can see it working when accuracy, range and visibility are piss-poor, but the weapons they were using were the predecessors of modern guns. Was it a case of tactics not having yet caught up with technology? Or am I seeing this wrong completely?
A rifled musket firing a Minie ball could stretch the effective range out to maybe 400 yards for a good marksman, but it was still a black powder muzzle-loader limited to a few shots a minute. Volley fire was still going to render everyone deaf and blind in short order. Towards the end of the war you start seeing repeaters and breech-loaders trickling onto the field, but in relatively small numbers.

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Rent-A-Cop
Oct 15, 2004

I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

xthetenth posted:

Would Patriot be able to damage said slug enough to break it up or something? Last I checked, nuclear warheads were a bit more finicky than slugs of metal.
The PAC-3 is hit-to-kill and I imagine has enough mass to at least start a slug tumbling if not outright destroy it.

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