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Pham Nuwen posted:I enjoy reading the Dresden books but I don't admit that to people I know. Dresden is a giant creep for a huge chunk of the series and it's only really tolerable because people call him out on it instead of treating it as laudable.
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May 22, 2014 21:22
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I like how the way you phrased it makes it 100% obvious what is under the spoiler bars, thanks.
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May 27, 2014 03:20
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SystemLogoff posted:Edit2: Crap, sorry Imp. No big deal. I kinda expected it and I probably should be staying out of this thread anyway. My will is weak. Just an hour and a half more...
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May 27, 2014 03:36
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That was a pretty solid entry. The one major complaint I have, despite the great payoff, is that Murphy's now back into Status Quo Holding Pattern, despite the fairly obvious setup for her getting the Sword of Love down the line, and it's going to involve more of her being down about failing to wield the sword and even more of her falling back since even Butters is a grade-A heavy hitter now. Edit: Actually, I'm a little annoyed that despite the Athena-Spirit-Thing being such a major motivating factor during this story that we didn't get any significant payoff time with it after the birth. I'm sure that'll be front and center next book but it feels a little unsatisfying. Michael is still the best character in the books. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 12:59 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 12:56
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Tornhelm posted:You misunderstood that passage. No, when Harry got there is realized that the Grail was a front and Nick wanted something else. The Dagger is what Nick wanted (or at least what Harry believes Nick wanted.)
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May 27, 2014 14:06
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Tornhelm posted:Try re-reading it. Maybe you should try rereading it. "I figure the Grail was a secondary goal," I said. "He really wanted something else." The knife was still in the pocket of my duster, now draped of the back of my chair in deference to the evening's warmth. Michael glanced at my coat and then nodded. You misunderstood what was going on there. Nick was using the Grail as a cover for what he really wanted, which Harry believes is the dagger. However Nick's deal with Harry was to recover the Grail which means Harry could, without breaking his agreement, take not only the artifact Nick really wanted (the dagger) but the other three as well. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:13 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 14:53
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Fried Chicken posted:It's both. This is Nick, he structures his plans so he gets incremental pickups along the way. He was after the McGuffin while hoping that let him grab something else, just like he was after Marcone while hoping that it let him grab Ivy in Small Favor That isn't what the book says though. Nick obviously wanted and took the Grail but it wasn't his primary objective. The actual mission was a failure for him because he sacrificed his daughter and while he got a powerful magical artifact out of it, it wasn't the one he specifically set out to get. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:04 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 14:58
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Fried Chicken posted:Which is different from what I said, how? He was after something more than the immediate McGuffin, just like how in SmF he was after something more than turning Marcone. He just set it up so if he "only" ended up with the McGuffin/Marcone he still came out ahead. Because in this case I don't think it actually worked out in Nick's plan. Really, it is kind of amazing just how badly Nick hosed up this book. He got played by Mab, Marcone and Hades like a fiddle. He killed his own daughter and the one person he seemed to have any trust for. He accidentally created a new Knight of the Cross with an even more powerful sword than before. He lost all his minions. At least two coins are currently trapped in the Greek Underworld with no clear way of getting out. Basically the only thing he got out of it was the Grail which is a pretty serious artifact but Dresden and Co/Mab came out with four artifacts of their own and a few million in diamonds to boot. This was not a "Nick didn't get what he wanted but came out ahead" book. Nick hosed up bad this book and almost completely ruined himself. He came out with the Grail, technically, but the book emphasizes that was just his cover story to disguise what he really wanted. That isn't coming out ahead. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:12 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 15:06
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Tornhelm posted:It helps if you use the rest of the line instead of cherry-picking half of one. Because the rest of the line doesn't matter. The context makes it very clear that the dagger is what Nick was looking for. This isn't even a theory. It is stated in the book. Harry mentions the grail being a secondary goal right before emphasizing the dagger. It is also clearly a single artifact (Harry says this, again, in the thing you quoted) and not the artifacts as a whole, Nick specifically asks for the dagger, Harry specifically keeps the dagger on himself, ect, ect. There's no other way to read this. Nick would have taken the other artifacts but he was there for the Dagger, or so Harry believed and Nick seemed to confirm. Michael also mentions that he can't see how Nick can use the Grail for evil and that is what triggers Harry mentioning that the grail was probably a secondary concern. So while Nick can probably do something with it, it isn't as huge and obvious a bad mojo as the shroud was. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:22 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 15:15
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Fried Chicken posted:Nick didn't come out ahead because he deviated from his plan. He let Dresden press his buttons, broke faith with Mab, triggered the vault safeguards, and then made it personal going after the Carpenter house to hurt Dresden as bad as losing Deirdre hurt him. If he had waited to do his double cross after they were clear of the vault, or not gone after Maggie he would have come out ahead. It didn't matter what Nick's plan was. The entire thing was a con job set up for him. Harry made it worse, as Harry always does, but Marcone, Mab and Hades set everything up from the start to gently caress him over. Even if Nick had gone 100% to plan and not let Dresden push his buttons, it wouldn't have mattered because Mab, Marcone and Hades set things up so Harry got the other four artifacts (by passing the test to prove himself worthy of them so they could be used as a weapon against the Outsiders) and Nick was forced to murder his own daughter. Short of Nick actually killing Harry, there was no way he was coming out ahead of the deal. Him going after Maggie turned it from bad to worse but he was hosed from the moment he started. The entire thing was a snowjob and Nick didn't realize it at all. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 15:27 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 15:21
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Mars4523 posted:If Murphy stays nerfed for long I'm going to be pissed. I'm already not happy that Butters, who didn't need to be a superpowered Knight, got a power up, and for it to be in the same book as Murphy getting injured, sidelined, (and knocked down to love interest) felt like a slap in the face. Michael is back out of the fight at the end and he was allowed to return for one final chance to show Nicky and the Nickleheads up without getting shot in the process.
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May 27, 2014 18:20
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Fried Chicken posted:the ability of an immortal to peacefully transfer their mantle to someone else and assume a mortal state seems like a very important plot point to introduce given Harry's goal. In all other cases the bearer had to die, which seems rather inconvenient I also think it's worth noting that this book established that the Winter Knight mantel is actually remarkably lovely. It doesn't actually give Harry any form of increased power aside from seemingly a protection against ice and slipping and maybe better ice magic? I get the feeling it's going to be going away fairly soon because Harry does not need it to play with the big leagues.
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May 27, 2014 19:16
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Fried Chicken posted:yeah, I find that part really weird though. "Not feeling your limits" doesn't translate to "your spine is healed" - the book was also really clear that as soon as the mantle stopped masking physical ailments they were all still there dragging him down. Plus we've seen him draw on its abilities that go beyond that in terms of magic as well (eg in changes lea notes he is suddenly able to do ice and fire magic simultaneously, or surviving the duel spell the vamp princess landed) and things like some sort of weird ESP/spidey sense for what Summer will do in Cold Days. The feeling I get from it is basically a quiet retcon of its abilities to justify Dresden giving it up without significant power loss in the near future. It really doesn't mesh with everything that was described up until now. Like, the other Winter Knights have been spoken of as giant terrifying badasses and I don't buy that just being because they didn't have limits, especially since a lot of them were not magicians and thus wouldn't have Harry's super-healing powers and thus should probably be an nonfunctioning wreck within a few weeks, not a few years.
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May 27, 2014 19:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Well, for most normal humans, suddenly being able to do really powerful and finely-controlled frost magic would be a major, major power boost. And they might get wizard-style healing from the mantle, too. This could be a case where a wizard getting a mantle is kinda like putting fudge topping on a fudge brownie, if that makes sense. That would make sense and be a pretty justifiable reason for it to still be a big deal while still being portrayed as it is in the book.
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May 27, 2014 20:46
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My biggest problem with Grey is that his voice and general tone was super goddamn Hellhound, right down to hitting on Murphy. I don't think Butcher did a good job distinguishing the character.
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May 27, 2014 22:46
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Fried Chicken posted:I suspect the complete lack of distinguishing traits for a shapeshifting character was deliberate. Particularly given that Butcher is really repetitive about setting up and reiterating traits for other characters. Well, it is less that he didn't have distinguishing traits and more than his distinguising traits and even his character voice were all really reminiscent of Kincaid. This could even turn out to be more significant down the line but just from this one book he felt like Kincaid 2.0 and without further knowledge it just feels like Butcher accidentally wrote two extremely similar characters. Mars4523 posted:And if Murphy stays gimped and/or gets demoted from active participant in the plot/struggle to preserve humanity to "Love interest" or damsel in distress I'll probably call it quits. Considering how much they emphasized Love as Murphy's character trait this book and how the Sword of Love is conveniently not taken yet, Murphy's absolutely going to pick that sucker up at some point, if just as a redemption for her failure in this book. It's just potentially going to be a tedious wait until she does and probably not until the next Denarian book if the current pattern holds. It was pointed out in an interview that sword only comes down with major major poo poo is afoot so it may not even be until the ending arc, in which case I hope to god Murphy gets something to do besides be Good People between now and then. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:19 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 23:17
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In addition to everything else, he mentioned protecting her from The Enemy.
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May 27, 2014 23:38
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Khizan posted:Firstly, Harry was a lot less capable back in Summer Knight, so of course the knights seemed like terrifying badasses. He was at the level of power where fighting a Knight was an "oh poo poo" moment; now he is at the level of power where fighting a Knight is pretty meh. That doesn't make sense though. The Winter Knight is big mojo. That's the entire point of the Winter Knight. To go from that to "oh, well, it isn't really THAT important" doesn't make sense with the fact that the Winter Knight is a tremendously big deal. If that is what we're supposed to take away from it then it's pretty dumb. It being a retcon is a lot more likely.
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May 28, 2014 03:07
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Khizan posted:The Knights are big mojo, yes... but so is Harry. He was a big deal even before he was the Winter Knight. He raised a zombie dinosaur, rode it through a storm of dark magic, and defeated two necromancers. He mastered Demonreach and became the Warden. He took on a naagloshii and came fairly close to soloing something that Morgan had to use a nuclear weapon to get rid of. He bested Nicodemus and the Denarians twice. He stormed Arctis Tor and took down Eldest Fetch. Harry was big mojo but was very specifically not that big a mojo. He was 'that crazy guy with a lot of power and very little self restrain' as opposed to being the personal hitman of one of the nastiest and most primal beings in the books. He's certainly a grade-A asskicker but he isn't that much of a grade-A asskicker and the Winter Knight mantel was pretty clearly described as a significant power boost for him that put him onto a different level. (And in turn, everyone around him started to get brought to higher levels to compensate.) ConfusedUs posted:
If Murphy goes from being a cool and self-assured asskicker to being the girlfriend character who is effectively worthless in any of the big meaningful events to come, that'd basically be the end of the series of me. No amount of 'well, it makes sense' would justify that in a series where goddamn Waldo Butters gets to step up to be a serious physical threat. And yes, being able to participate in the action scenes is a requirement. They make up huge chunks of the book and are were characters define themselves and get to do cool things. Murphy getting 'girlfriended' so that she, and she alone of the major adult characters (except arguably Michael, who was back in action this book anyway), is taken out of action would be awful writing. Wittgen posted:Regarding Murphy, what was up with Michael pointing out that Harry wasn't more upset about Murphy being hurt than he would be about any of his friends being hurt? I can't tell if it was supposed to point out that Harry has stopped being stupidly sexist about Murphy in terms of combat or if it was supposed to be a hint that he isn't in love with her. It's the former. Harry was upset she got hurt but not MORE upset that she got hurt. He's getting over his weird poo poo about women, or at least about Murphy. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 06:21 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 06:12
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ConfusedUs posted:You know, except for the parts where she has repeatedly turned down the swords? Or the fact that she is--by at least a decade--the oldest remaining "active" fighter? Or that she took a debilitating injury? She turned down the swords because she didn't emotionally believe she was ready for them and Skin Game proved that she was correct in that assumption. It would be kind of the polar opposite of good development for multiple books of buildup to end with "yep, Murphy's super lovely, sucks for her." Beyond that, yes, Murphy is the Action Girl because that is the kind of character she is. She is forward, aggressive, and actively enjoys fighting. Even if she develops it shouldn't be away from that and into a passive role, especially because she isn't a good fit for passive or secondary roles. Not only because it doesn't fit her personality but because most of those roles already have a well-defined character being part of them. However Murphy isn't 'just' the Spunky Action Chick. She's important because she is one of the characters most willing to call out bullshit, regardless of who she is talking to, and important because she's the closest the series has to a solid human face at this point. Everyone else is knee-deep in magical mumbo-jumbo or deeply held religious beliefs aside from maybe Butters who (bless his heart) can't fill the same role Murphy can, especially now that he's a Knight. Edit: And in terms of age... c'mon, Shiro. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 07:30 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 07:22
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Xtanstic posted:Side effect of not having a job meant that I could finish the book in a day. Time to catch up on thread! Loved seeing Subconscious Harry again and I'm worried about Bob's increasingly high profile I'm really really waiting for the reveal that Bob is Necro-Evil Bob and the actual one is locked up or sealed away or something.
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May 28, 2014 08:00
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Xtanstic posted:Yeah like tons. It was pretty much confirmed when Uriel freaked out in Ghost Story What's the list at now? Ivy.
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May 28, 2014 09:17
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Sir Rabia Tirnova posted:Some thoughts : No, he actually talked to Molly. She was asleep and so was he and it had been the first time in a while they were both in that situation and somehow it let them mentally connect. I assume Lashel could sense Lash Jr inside Harry's head or had enough knowledge to know what would have happened.
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May 28, 2014 23:56
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Azuth0667 posted:Any idea about who Nick was referring to as THE ENEMY? He's pissed off a lot of people but, the major ones that strike me would be the White God, Nemesis, or Lucifer. It's Nemesis, pretty explicitly. He even talked to Harry about it before.
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May 29, 2014 00:26
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jivjov posted:Yeah, this was kinda my reaction to the debate from a few pages back...I completely understand that having a character's backstory be "I was raped/almost raped/otherwise sexually assaulted" has a really high potential to be some combination of cliche, in poor taste, badly done, or some really reprehensible 'fanservice'...but that's not what Ascher felt like to me. I like the concept of someone being in a situation similar to Dresden's but not having someone to speak out for her. She used her powers to defend herself from something horrible, gets persecuted for it. It is in incredibly bad taste, especially considering she spends most of the book trying to get people to sleep with her, being hit on, and has a conveniently exploitative sequence where she has to strip out of her clothes to complete a puzzle. If it had just been that one thing it would have been less noticable but the book quite literally has more words dedicated to her sexy body than Molly has lines. It spends the entire time sexualizing her and then "welp, my backstory is rape!"
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May 29, 2014 06:30
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Masonity posted:Peace Talks obviously refers to Harry trying to defuse the sibling rivalry between them. It's a domestic book. No lie, I'd kind of enjoy a book where everything wasn't loving exploding at all times, just to see how it would be handled.
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May 30, 2014 09:47
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The Night Watch series is pretty good but kind of suffers from a weird power bloat/change in tone. Some of it is intentional (Geser goes from being this weird boss to being this supernatural force of power back to being this weird boss as Anton progresses and the series is pretty good about taking these people are gradually humanizing them as Anton gets on their level.) Some of it isn't as the series kinda dives deeper into traditional urban fantasy as opposed to the more melancholy and grey tone of the first two books. Some of it is pretty clearly just the author wanting to keep things relatively cheerful. Anton getting a gigantic power boost so that he can remain on Svetlana's level and therefore conveniently sidestep the overaching plot of power being a diversionary force, although New Watch touches on that a bit as well. It is also remarkably Russian in a lot of ways, some of which can be uncomfortable although you can write some of those off as Anton being that way as opposed to the author's views. Not all of it though. The movies however are just loving awful. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:03 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 22:00
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Masonity posted:I'm not sure that's why it happened. Svetlana's withdrawal from the Night Watch meant that even if Anton wasn't given the huge boost they could have worked. It was only a major issue if she was active, wasn't it? In her housewife role she only uses said power to iron the sheets anyway! No, they had awkwardness about it even when she was retired and the fact that their daughter was the Messiah meant that Sveltana would never entirely be able give up that power. That was one of the things that Twilight Watch touched on before Anton got his huge power spike at the end. New Watch kind of touches on this a bit more when Anton seals his power and discovers Sveltlana has been doing the same, but... well, you know how New Watch ends and if you don't I don't want to spoil it since it's still relatively new. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 22:07
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Fangz posted:Knowing Dresden, he'll spend it on some ridiculously expensive magical device that will break the first book he uses it and then that will be that. I know that Little Chicago got wrecked because it was obviously a bad idea from a writing perspective but man was that a frustrating fizzle of a plot.
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Jun 2, 2014 01:27
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Hand Row posted:So bring a minion and kill him? If they don't do it then kill your daughter. Nick doesn't trust his minions, remember? Part of the reason he has their tongue cut out is to make it harder for them to form bonds and thus less likely to betray him.
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Jun 2, 2014 05:01
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Khizan posted:There's no way it will be Minerva. Harry's not going to name his daughter after a goddess who's quite possibly still alive and kicking; the risks of her being offended at his presumption are too high. Oh yeah, Harry never does something shortsighted and ill-advised that pisses incredibly powerful people off.
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Jun 2, 2014 08:37
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Harrower posted:Has Mab asked Harry to do anything he wouldn't have done on his own anyway? It's getting kind of old for her to try some grand manipulation while Harry kicks and screams to avoid doing it until he realizes doing her bidding is his jam. The entirety of Skin Game. If given a choice he wouldn't have helped Nick at all. Not even if he knew it was a trap since people still died to pull it off. Him helping Nick was 100% something Mab wanted and he didn't.
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Jun 2, 2014 09:18
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Anias posted:What? Murphy is a major character and about as close to a secondary protagonist as the series has. She has been there literally since the short story that started the series, has had her own point-of-view stories, and is given more time, effort, energy and plot weight than literally any other character in the books besides Dresden himself. She hasn't 'outlived her plot archetype' because her role is something extremely central to the books and the core story. If she got killed off so Harry Dresden feels bad it would be remarkably lovely writing and would serve to take away the one character flat-out willing to call Harry on his poo poo. She and Michael together represent a pretty important role in the narrative of the books because they are the two people who Harry will listen to and each of them approaching his problems from a different angle, both of which Harry needs to hear at some point or another. Until such point as Harry Dresden becomes a character who doesn't need someone to call him out on his bullshit, Murphy is going to be a necessary character because literally nobody else can fill that role. Considering I'm fairly sure that the literal biblical Apocalypse will occur before that happens, I don't see her going anywhere for any meaningful length of time. You couldn't even introduce someone else who could because the only reason Murphy can fill that role is her and Dresden's long-term relationship and mutually built respect. She does need to undergo a transformative role but not one that removes her from the story for a lengthy period of time. That is why the Sword shell game is getting kind of tiresome. If she isn't getting the sword than she's getting something equivalent but out of left field and the question is just going to be how many books of self-doubt it will be before it happens. To be fair, I think this is Butcher trying to avoid what he's done so many times before and introduce a super-powerful McGuffin that he then has to write around to keep the series-long tradition of Harry Dresden being outclassed and having the poo poo beaten out of him 10 times in a day. If Murphy is on-call and is Sword-level mojo, a lot of Harry's issues become a whole loving lot simpler to deal with, even under the restrictions the Swords have. I'm curious to see how Butters avoids being a Jedi Knight Problem Solver in upcoming books. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 12:49
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The problem with killing off characters is that there's nobody he really can kill without truncating a plot arc, at least in this book. He's got some characters who are pretty obviously lined up to die in the near future. (I wouldn't put a lot of money on Carlos or Ebeneezer making it to their respective retirement parties.) Also we lost the Summer and Winter ladies last book and a Nicklehead this book so the secondary cast is seeing trimming. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 20:25
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ZorajitZorajit posted:That's just crazy enough to be true. We saw Mister for his first significant appearance since Ghost Story, and we know that Mister is seriously freaking, albeit in a different direction, when viewed in wizard sight. Yeah. The big problem I have with Nick's survival is that he's been effectively castrated as far as a villain goes. I don't think any villain got owned quite as hard as Nick did. Maybe Lord Raith. There are places his plot can go but it isn't really going to be possible to view him as scary anymore when Dresden has humiliated him on a regular basis now. The other big villains are terrifying and borderline unstoppable and Nick's kind of been reduced to a punchline. That said, Butcher keeps repeatedly hinting at the idea that the true defeat for Nick wouldn't be death but the willing (and non-evil) surrender of his coin so it may be building up to that.
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Jun 2, 2014 21:46
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thespaceinvader posted:Yeah, because nickelheads never come back. I'm assuming Nick kept the coin. Except Hades said he is keeping her soul and Nick pretty obviously expected her soul to be kept as protection against The Enemy. It is pretty unlikely she is coming back.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:10
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It seems remarkably unlikely we're going to be done with Mab and Molly before the actual Apocolypse trilogy.
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Jun 5, 2014 07:52
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The White God really seems to be special mojo considering what we know about him, but it doesn't necessarily mean he is the one true God. I wouldn't be surprised if Harry meets him someday. ... and he is of course Harry Dresden's time-travelling clone from an alternate dimension.
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Jun 8, 2014 23:48
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Going through my re-read. We don't know who gave them but they were under the influence of Nemesis, yes.
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Jun 9, 2014 00:08
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electricsugar posted:But goddamn is Butcher capable of describing a woman in a non-creepy/misogynistic way? It's just so off-putting. Does he really have to describe the size and shape of the breasts of every new female character? It never really goes away but he does tone it down a little.
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Jun 9, 2014 06:06
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