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Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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OwlFancier posted:

Unfortunately all of the people who could are now in fema camps and everyone else is too afraid to speak out.

But we should, indeed, ban australia.

Joe Biden's tyrannical reach knows no bounds if he is putting people into FEMA camps in Australia.

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Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Panfilo posted:

People in the comments are claiming that the suicide and murder rates didn't actually go down in response to widespread gun regulation, and I'm wondering how much of that is bullshit.

Murder and homicide overall went down after the NFA was implemented in Australia. Murder via gun went WAY down.

Suicide by gun declined a huge amount, but the overall suicide rate went up a tiny bit immediately afterwards and then didn't change much.

https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/essays/1996-national-firearms-agreement.html

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Mar 28, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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To be slightly fair to modern day libertarians, 18th century libertarians didn't really have concepts like national single-payer healthcare systems, capital gains taxes, or various moral/ethical health issues around bodily autonomy to deal with when outlining their ideology. It is pretty easy for a libertarian from 1730 to sound like a free market socialist because the political system they were operating against at the time was either an absolute monarchy or a mercantilist system run by a constitutional monarchy. So, the concept of free-market socialism/modern Nordic-style social democracy was the libertarian option to the status quo when your focus was only on civil rights and trade.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Guavanaut posted:

Men taking male hormones to dominate men's sports, a thing that happens all the time :tootzzz:
Men taking female hormones to dominate women's sports, a thing that does not happen :supaburn:

To be "fair" to the weirdos, they don't want youth taking puberty blockers or hormones at all either. So, they are complaining that people with too many male hormones are competing in women's sports because they don't want either to happen. Even though trans athletes in women's sports are a tiny tiny fraction of players and the hormone difference only really makes a major difference at the elite level or in certain sports. None of them seem to complain about teens taking female hormones to get better at gymnastics or target shooting (which weirdly does seem to have some bias towards biological females) for some reason, though.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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VitalSigns posted:

Remember Ann Coulter, she made a career off saying incredibly stupid poo poo like we should invade the entire Middle East in a new crusade to convert all the infidels by the sword, and then it turned out the Bush political dynasty couldn't even survive starting a second stupid war after Afghanistan.

But it got her on TV and made her a bunch of money for a while, enough to live on still even though she's irrelevant now, and that's all she really wanted.

It also caused her to sleep with Bill Maher. So, who is to say if it was worth it or not?

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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VitalSigns posted:

I did not want to know that

If Matilda has to know, then we all have to share her burden.

Although, it was apparently back in 1994. So, she had already started her career of saying outrageous things when they dated, but she hadn't made it big yet.

https://twitter.com/MaraWilson/status/833118919757950976

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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predicto posted:

I doubt Mara Wilson actually knows this to be the case. I would not be surprised if Ann Coulter has never actually slept with anyone other than her piles of money.

It's been an open secret since the days of "Politically Incorrect" in the mid 90's. Maher used to invite her on all the time and has basically confirmed that they "didn't date, but did see each other socially and were very close" in the 90's. Coulter herself hasn't technically confirmed it, but she refused to say no and told people it was none of their business when asked about it an interview.

I just thought it was funny that Matilda had posted it.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 04:11 on May 2, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Clarste posted:

It also shows that the fabled swing voter demographic who are equally likely to vote Blue or Red are mostly economically liberal and socially conservative.

That has been a known thing for a long time. Since at least 2004, people were focusing on how there aren't that many "true" swing voters (somewhere between 8% and 15%, depending on how you count them), but they really were swing voters who would just vote on personality and culture issues. Those are the Gore-Bush-Obama-Obama-Trump-Biden voters.

Another problem is that they usually determine that ranking by self-identification and a huge swatch of people like to say they are moderate or independent, despite voting exactly like how a strong partisan or ideological voter would vote.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Libertarian (and world's second richest man) think an elaborate conspiracy theory to stage a false flag killing to... discredit Nazis? Is more likely than a Neo-Nazi actually committing a mass shooting because the Nazi was a white Hispanic.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1655797123298869248

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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I have no idea why the Libertarian Lady is going all-in on "False Flag MKULTRA experiment to make Nazis look bad," but Elon is fully onboard.

There was discussion earlier about whether she just says things to appeal to dipshits or really believes it, but either way it seems like Elon is definitely one of those dipshits.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1655694121653137411

https://twitter.com/PokerPolitics/status/1655725277576589312
https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1655705244007911425

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Really weird to see several of the big libertarian accounts go with "this was a false flag set up to make Nazis look bad" take. And for Elon to be really going all in on this.

The typical conservative take is "he was Hispanic and in a gang, therefore cartels and Biden is weak on the border." I have no idea where the idea that the government is trying to falsely slander Neo Nazis is coming from or why they feel the need to defend them.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1655992402463821824
https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1655957615942197249
https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1655975025504124930

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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I don't think Disposablewords was actually literally accusing me of bad faith. I was just saying it is crazy why the libertarians seem to be openly running interference for the Neo-Nazi, while the conservatives seem to have settled on "he definitely did do it, but he was Hispanic and in a gang, so this means Biden is weak on the border and immigrants are killing people." There was already an existing narrative they could jump on. Disposablewords was just saying that they are obviously fond of the Neo Nazis and can't resist defending them.

Panfilo posted:

This is their rhetoric every time a nazi kills people. There's been previous shooters who were blatantly right wing and Redheaded Libertarian accused them of being "glowies" (fed plants I assume).

Basically anything that supports a left wing narrative must have been a false flag, and anything that supports a right wing narrative is always suppressed by the evil state media. In this case, she points out that damning things about the Nazi shooter came out immediately, while it took longer to release similar info about leftist mass shooters. The "Transifesto" as she calls it hasn't been released yet apparently which she interperets as being because it will have things really incriminating to the left. In her vivid imagination this Transifesto is 300 pages of "I got manipulated into getting my tits and uterus hacked off and killing Christians is my only recourse" so of COURSE the woke government doesn't want you to know the shooter wrote that! :tinfoil:

Yeah, but why are the libertarians seemingly creating this new narrative that is a defense of the Neo-Nazi instead of jumping on the existing narrative by the right or just staying out? The MTG/far right narrative is that he was a Mexican gang member and likely part of a cartel who was enabled by Biden's weakness on the border. They were on the same page for the trans shooter and others, but this time there is a coordinated effort by multiple different libertarian media stars/groups to go with the "government false flag to defame Neo Nazi" instead of hopping on the "official" conservative narrative like they usually do.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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OwlFancier posted:

I would suggest that both groups are prone to conspiracy thinking, although yes they do generally converge on a single conservative narrative with most things. But it isn't enormously surprising that occasionally they could diverge occasionally. With enough events it's likely to happen occasionally.

Yeah, but if you are going to diverge and branch out on your own unique narrative, then "government trying to falsely defame Neo Nazi" is basically the absolute worst possible choice to go with.

I don't know the exact timeline, so I'm not sure if some major libertarian poster threw it out there and a bunch of others jumped on or if a bunch of different libertarian public figures came to the same general conclusion, but it is baffling that out of all the conspiracies you could think of, that "well, those SS and Swastika tattoos could mean literally anything. And they are probably fake anyway. Isn't it a little convenient that the government is claiming the guy with Nazi tattoos was a Neo Nazi... when he was also Hispanic! This is just unfairly maligning Nazis." was the one you decided to go with.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Sax Solo posted:

Is there a good book or essay that attacks libertarianism?

The situation: I'm in this book club with some old friends. A couple of them have stated that they sorta consider themselves libertarians, ("small L, not like the big L ones who are loving insane"). They are smart and reasonable guys -- I think probably just kind of poisoned with individualism and cynicism and.. lack of empathy I guess. They are not edgelords or agressively-assholish or jrods... they seem genuinely open to discussion.

One of them recommended a book for the group, The Case Against Education by Bryan Caplan (who seems to be a huge piece of poo poo; the existence of a GMU economics professor is itself kind of a case against education wakka wakka). My friend said he found the book convincing and would love to hear arguments against it. I've read a few pages in the book and the arguments are already stinky.

I am not sure if I am up for the torments of reading this book and processing it and making a counter case, in a way that is both effective and preserves these friendships. Honestly I'm not confident in my own abilities these days. Even when I win arguments I don't feel good about it.

I'd much rather point at someone else's general work against libertarianism. Where is our indoctrination literature lol...

If they can get past the title, "A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear" is a very funny and surprisingly deep investigative dive into a New Hampshire town that was taken over by libertarian activists who eventually dismantled the entire local government in "an experiment of radical self-governance" and it resulted in bears taking over the town for several months.

The guy who originally started the project in 2005 was ultimately driven out of power by the other libertarians because he wanted to organize a way to get rid of the bears and re-institute garbage services. The town eventually drove most of the bears out in 2016, but as of 2020, was still experiencing semi-regular bear attacks on residents with no real plan to prevent them altogether.

The town also had never had a murder in its history and then had two the year they implemented the project. And it became a haven for sex offenders who were also not prosecuted because they fired the entire police force except for one guy and wouldn't pay to fix the broken police cruiser, so he couldn't take domestic violence calls unless they came to the station. The residents eventually formed a tent city that attracted the bears because people would feed them and they eliminated all garbage services.

https://www.amazon.com/Libertarian-Walks-Into-Bear-Liberate-ebook/dp/B083J1FXY8

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jun 13, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Lemniscate Blue posted:

I'm not saying that he's wrong about that part. I'm wondering if he thought up a type of tax that wouldn't affect someone's economic decisions and actions and still fund even a monarchist government, or if he just claimed that a hypothetical neutral tax would be the best kind of tax but conveniently forgot to specify exactly what kind of tax would accomplish that.

It's been a while since I read any Von Mises, but I believe he doesn't actually literally advocate for a truly neutral tax system. He argues for the absolute minimum tax possible to effectively fund the basic services of the federal government (government should take it exactly as much as it spends and never more in a perfect scenario). He says that those minimal taxes should be levied in such a way that they encourage investment and positive economic outcomes.

I don't remember if he goes into too much specifics about what his ideal form of taxation is, but most of his work is about what not to do.

He definitely argues that things like payroll taxes, income taxes, and taxes on investments are the worst kinds because they punish people for working, employing others, and investing - which are the actions that generate the largest amount of economic improvement for society at large and should not be discouraged or penalized.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Fister Roboto posted:

I'm pretty certain that most people are just primed to think "long unhinged diatribe" whenever they hear "manifesto", for whatever reason.

Ted Kaczynski and Hitler did immeasurable damage to the branding for manifestos.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Rappaport posted:

I realize your stupid gimmick is lying every turn you can, but Mein Kampf was never branded as a manifesto in its title. Theodore you might have a better case with!

Mein Kampf is literally a manifesto!

The actual encyclopedia definition of Mein Kampf is:

quote:

Mein Kampf, (German: “My Struggle”) political manifesto written by Adolf Hitler. It was his only complete book, and the work became the bible of National Socialism (Nazism) in Germany’s Third Reich. It was published in two volumes in 1925 and 1927, and an abridged edition appeared in 1930. By 1939 it had sold 5,200,000 copies and had been translated into 11 languages.

Ted's 35,000 word document he mailed to the New York Times says it is a manifesto and the print version is called "The Unabomber Manifesto: Industrial Society and Its Future."

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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The "professional" Libertarian commentariat going full on anti-trans and race-obsessed is genuinely not a great sign.

It means that the conservative readership is so driven and motivated by that stuff that they are seeking out any content they can find and the libertarians are tuning all of their programming to it seize on it or that the libertarian movement really is so obsessed with those subjects that it has overtaken their concern about taxes, weed/individual freedoms, or small government.

This really does seem like somewhere that the weirdos advocating for legalizing child pornography at the libertarian debates in 2012/Republican potheads/goldbugs that traditionally made up the professional libertarian movement wouldn't have really been into.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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The most successful 3rd party in America.

https://twitter.com/LPNH/status/1677840648857157632

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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I watched that Rand Paul clip and then watched his entire statement to make sure I wasn't missing any context. He expands that his big problem is he hates anti-trust laws and exemptions because it is the government effectively regulating how the industry works, but his weird complaint about NCAA players being paid is completely unrelated to his primary issue and is totally out of left field. If anything, removing the anti-trust rules and exemptions would incentivize more pay for athletes.

He goes on to elaborate that he will enjoy watching college basketball less if he knows the athletes are getting paid. It's really weird that he outlines the (semi-legitimate) complaints about anti-trust law and a web of exemptions governing how the sport should be played instead of letting the people playing the sport set the rules and then his conclusion is that the main problem with college sports is paying athletes. How is having college athletes spending too much money on cars bad when NFL players doing it is fine?

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Yikesaroo.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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OwlFancier posted:

That again wheels round to "what kind of technology inherently favours distributed power" and short of self assembling star trek replicators I have no idea.

My friend, have you heard of a little thing called bitcoin?

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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TheMuffinMan posted:

in california if you work 40 hours a week you can make close to 30k a year before tax.

i just checked craigslist there are a lot of places you can live in for 900 a month....

Obviously, you technically can live in San Francisco on $30k (about 1/4 of people there currently do it already). It just sucks and you have to be incredibly optimal in your financial decisions and usually have some kind of government support.

All of these things can be true at once:

- Only a tiny amount of people (less than 2% in 2019 and probably even fewer now) actually make the federal minimum wage.
- Only about 5% of people actually work more than one job.
- You can technically not be homeless on a very small income in a major city.
- Some of that is masked with government support, so their real income after transfers is not actually that low.
- You are assuming that people will operate 100% efficiently and refrain from all leisure activities or major emergency spending.

People arguing it is literally impossible aren't right, but you're also downplaying the many mitigating factors and non-financial problems of doing so.

The actual lived experience of a poor person in America isn't working two jobs on minimum wage and you vastly overestimate the severity of the problem when you assume so, but the problem still exists and is still fairly severe depending on geographic location and individual circumstances, even if you act 100% rationally and are financially disciplined on a low income. The non-financial costs of constantly moving, crime, uncertainty regarding income and bills, etc. are incredibly difficult to calculate and will vary a lot for individuals.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 14:15 on Aug 17, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Guavanaut posted:

Singapore always ends up high on those lists too, because something something no tax, despite having things like 80% of people living in public housing that would be called unrealistic socialism if you said "cool, let's do that here too"

Also a bunch of prohibitions that should go counter to ideas of 'negative freedoms' or whatever. Is a man not entitled to the stick of his gum?

There was a brief libertarian fling with Sweden after they actually topped the list of best countries for business for a couple years in a row.

Sweden has no minimum wage, a low business tax rate, and most labor regulations and laws are dealt with by agreements between employers and trade unions, while the government generally stays out of regulating employment specifics and just sets the broad strokes minimum requirements.

CATO had a phase where it was writing multiple articles that were essentially, "Statists say they want a social Democracy like the Nordic countries, but why aren't they implementing these changes?" and "What the U.S. can learn from Sweden."

But, the libertarian and conservative readers weren't down with Sweden's other qualities and that phase died out. They used to be all about Saudi Arabia and the UAE until the Jamal Koshaggi thing made that a little difficult to maintain. Now, they are all about Singapore.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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"Ruby Ridge was about the government persecuting home schoolers" and the phrase "Weaver allegedly sold two too-much-sawed-off shotguns to someone" are some extremely wild takes.

Also, "he was given court summons with the wrong date on it, so he was obviously justified in killing an FBI agent sent to serve a warrant."

Ending with:

quote:

Remember this when you call for gun control.

Think it can't happen here? It already has 31 years ago.

It's perfectly formulated to be an amazingly dark parody, but it came from the actual official Libertarian Party Twitter - not even the crazy NH party breakaway one.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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The ATF accidentally shot his wife during the standoff. Ruby Ridge has plenty of angles to attack the ATF over for not handling it well.

But, it is blowing my mind that the defense they went with is "he just sold a couple of "too sawed off" shotguns to undercover ATF agents a couple times, lied about it, missed a court date, threatened to kill his neighbor, and gave his 14-year old son a shotgun and had him kill an FBI agent sent to serve the warrant - and the tyrannical DOJ actually arrested and prosecuted him for him it!"

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Panfilo posted:

What's the real story again? All I remembered is the ATF botched some raid and shot his wife, kid, and dog.

The short version is:

- Guy moves into the mountain because he is a crazy prepper and white supremacist who is preparring for RaHoWa.

- He tries to take over his neighbor's land.

- The neighbor sues him and rats him out to the ATF that he has been illegally selling banned guns.

- The ATF sends an undercover agent to buy multiple sawed-off shotguns and illegal weapon accessories from him multiple times - including once at a literal white supremacist conference.

- The DOJ prosecutes him and send him a court summons.

- The court summons had the wrong date on it.

- He missed his court date and refused all calls or attempts to contact him from the court.

- He thinks that they gave him the wrong court date on purpose because they were trying to set him up because of tyranny and says he will kill anyone who tries to talk to him, arrest him, or serve a warrant.

- Federal Marshals come to his house to serve a warrant for his arrest.

- A dog attacks them and the Marshal shoots at it.

- His 14-year old son was given a shotgun and told to guard the property, so he shot the Marshall.

- The Marshal shot back and killed his son.

- He shot and killed the Marshal.

- There is a standoff for 11 days where he refuses to leave his house or surrender.

- He shoots at the ATF and U.S. Marshals from the window of their house.

- A sniper shoots at him, but hits his wife while she was carrying their baby when the bullet goes through a door.

- The ATF also shot at him once when he was unarmed and came up to the shed outside his house.

- They eventually start to run out of food and a civilian negotiator gets them to agree to surrender.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Aug 21, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
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Caros posted:

Nah, come on my dude.

Ye, libertarians are racist poo poo heads whose support for ruby ridge is dependant on melanin content, but let's not pretend like Weaver was the bad guy.

The fbi shot first, killing weaver's dog. They may or may not have announced themselves before or after murdering the dog, and may or may not have shot first at weaver's son when the latter became hostile. They didn't shoot an fbi agent for serving a warrant, but for shooting at them and their dog.

Given that these same agents later shot weaver twice (in the back) while he posed zero threat and murdered his wife, I'm willing to lean on the idea that they shot first in the initial encounter as well.

I don't think it is too wild of a take to say that the white supremacist arms dealer who armed his child and instructed him to kill anyone on their property is a bad guy.

The Marshals and ATF obviously hosed up when they shot his wife (she was behind a door that they shot at when trying to shoot Weaver), but acting like the situation that led to the siege was totally reasonable and Weaver was in the right is crazy.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Aug 21, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Caros posted:

This is dishonest as gently caress.

The ATF solicited the purchase from weaver in order to get leverage on him so that they could use him as an informant. He told them to gently caress off. There is a decent chance he did not know his sawed off weapons exceeded a federal limit.

The dude missed a court date because the court docs had the wrong date on it. They sent officers to arrest him (illegally) despite knowing this. They only obtained the arrest warrant by omitting that he had not, in fact, missed his court date.

The son had a gun because these were rednecks in the mountains. Literally everyone there had guns. They also hunted habitually and were following the dog in hope that it had found somethig for them to shoot and eat.

The Marshall's were hiding in camo in the woods. The dog *approached* them and was shot. No one on either side ever alleged that the dog attacked.

They murdered the dog.

Depending on who you believe, the cops either shot first at Sammy (the fourteen year old) or Sammy, pissed that some unannounced weirdos hiding on the side of the mountain had just shot his dog, shot at them.

They shoot the child dead.

A family friend shoots the cop in the crossfire.

A seige ensues. Randy weaver never fires a shot during this seige. It is a 'Seige' in that the ATF don't want to approach the cabin for fear of provoking him, not because both sides are shooting.

Randy weaver is shot in the back by an FBI sniper while he is leaving the cabin to visit the body of his son in a nearby shed to prepare him for burial. None of them are armed. FBI rules of engagement are literally 'shoot any armed adult male on sight' which is blatantly illegal. Weaver has not been given a surrender order when he is shot.

Harris, the family friend, is hit while the three (including a teenage girl) flee back to cover. This shot penetrates Harris and kills Vicki weaver inside the cabin.

They surrender nine days later because all the adults in the cabin were severely wounded or dead by sniper fire. It continued for 9 days because weaver (understandably) was afraid that if they showed themselves, the fbi would blow their loving brains out.

You are so fill of poo poo.

You can just read the Wiki and see that this is not correct. You're giving him way too much credit.

Some of the claims you're citing are claims in a book that Weaver wrote years later and were never corroborated.

quote:

On cross-examination by the defense, ballistics experts called by the prosecution testified that the physical evidence contradicted neither the prosecution's nor the defense's theories of the gunfight.[3]: 390  Martin Fackler testified that Roderick fired the shot or shots that killed Striker, that Degan fired the shot that hit Sammy in the right elbow, that Harris shot and killed Degan, and that Cooper "probably" shot and killed Sammy.[3]

Roderick and Cooper stated that Striker preceded Harris and Sammy out of the woods. They said Degan challenged Harris, who turned, shot and fatally wounded Degan before he could fire first. They said Roderick shot the dog once, Sammy fired twice at Roderick, and Roderick returned fire. Roderick and Cooper testified that they heard multiple gunshots from the Weaver party. Cooper testified that he fired two three-shot bursts at Harris and saw Harris fall "like a sack of potatoes" with leaves flying up in front of him, presumably from the impact of a round. Cooper sought cover. He testified that he saw Sammy run away and radioed OP team member Dave Hunt that he had wounded or killed Harris.

quote:

A later ballistics report showed that nineteen rounds were fired during the fight.[51] DUSM Roderick fired one shot from an M16A1 (which killed "Striker", the dog, by entering his body two inches from the dog's anus, and exiting the chest), then Sammy fired three from a .223 Ruger Mini-14 (at Roderick), Degan fired seven from an M16 (at Harris and Weaver, while moving at least 21 feet (6.4 m)), and Cooper fired six from a 9 mm Colt submachine gun (at Harris and Weaver), Harris then fired two from a .30-06 M1917 Enfield Rifle (striking and killing DUSM Degan).[50][52] After the federal agents began firing, Sammy was killed by a shot to the back while retreating.[52][13] Harris fired one unaimed shot and killed DUSM Degan.[52][53]

The origin of the shot that killed Sammy was of critical concern in all investigations. At the time of the writing of the Ruby Ridge: Report (1996), the Senate Subcommittee on Terrorism, Technology and Government Information, chaired by Senator Arlen Specter, observed that the government's position at trial was that Cooper had fired the shot. The Subcommittee engaged additional experts and ultimately declined to draw a final conclusion.[54] The Justice Department's Ruby Ridge Task Force (RRTF) report to the Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR, 1994) states:

The evidence suggests, but does not establish, that the shot that killed Sammy Weaver was fired by DUSM Cooper.

It was concluded there was no indication he intended to kill or injure Weaver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Aug 21, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
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Caros posted:

Literally nothing you just posted disputes what I said. The two sides have different stories about hwo the first confrontation started. The marshalls obviously don't want to admit they shot a child first, and the weavers don't want to admit that they shot first. The Marshall's claim that they announced themselves, the weavers claim they said no such thing.

We do know that the Marshall's never claimed to have been attacked by the dog. It came running up to strangers and they shot it. At *bes* a fourteen year old overreacted after a bunch of strangers killed his dog and a pair of tragic deaths ensued. At worst a bunch of jittery cops shot a dog because they are cowardly fucks, then saw two people with guns baring down on them and shot.

I'm willing to accept either of those. Bothare a gently caress up of law enforcement.

Now how about you address the bushit about how Randy weaver was apparently Ramboing out the window when he got shot in the back, unarmed by cops.

Edit: also, I do love that last line. Pure cop bullshit.

'There was no proof that the cop intended to kill or injure weaver'. Because apparently cops are that one batman skit where they don't understand how death works and that shooting your firearm at someone can kill or injure them.

Some of your characterizations are just giving an insane amount of benefit of the doubt or are straight from Weaver's book that were never corroborated.

quote:

The ATF solicited the purchase from weaver in order to get leverage on him so that they could use him as an informant. He told them to gently caress off. There is a decent chance he did not know his sawed off weapons exceeded a federal limit.

Seems very unlikely that he was completely unaware that he was selling multiple sawed-off shotguns at multiple times, including at a white supremacist rally where he was specifically advertising arming for RaHoWa against the tyrannical government's gun control laws, and they were just penalizing him for an oopsie.

quote:

to get Weaver to act as an informant for his investigation into Aryan Nations. Weaver refused to become a "snitch"


quote:

The dude missed a court date because the court docs had the wrong date on it. They sent officers to arrest him (illegally) despite knowing this. They only obtained the arrest warrant by omitting that he had not, in fact, missed his court date.

Not correct. He had many many opportunities to talk to his lawyer or the court. He specifically dodged his own lawyer and the court multiple times when they tried to give him the correct date or talk to him.

He also refused to show up to the incorrect date either and dodged the court, his lawyer, his friends, and the mail for 7 months. It wasn't an "oopsie, I thought it was on the date on the letter."

quote:

Weaver did not give him a telephone number. Hofmeister sent Weaver letters on January 19, January 31, and February 5, asking Weaver to contact him to work on his defense within the federal court system.

quote:

On February 5, the trial date was changed from February 19 to 20 to give participants more travel time following a federal holiday. The court clerk sent the parties a letter informing them of the date change, but the notice was not sent directly to Weaver, only to Hofmeister. On February 7, Richins sent Weaver a letter indicating that he had the case file and needed to talk with Weaver. This letter erroneously said that Weaver's trial date was March 20.[18]: 38 [27] On February 8, Hofmeister again attempted to contact Weaver by letter informing him that the trial was to begin on February 20 and that Weaver needed to contact him immediately. Hofmeister also made several calls to individuals who knew Weaver, asking them to have Weaver call him. Hofmeister told U.S. District Court Judge Harold Lyman Ryan that he had been unable to reach Weaver before the scheduled court date.[28]

When Weaver did not appear in court on February 20, Ryan issued a bench warrant for failure to appear in court.[27][18]: 2  On February 26, Ken Keller, a reporter for the Kootenai Valley Times, telephoned the U.S. Probation Office and asked whether Weaver did not show in court on February 20 because the letter Richins sent him had an incorrect date. Upon finding a copy of the letter, the Chief Probation Officer, Terrence Hummel, contacted Ryan's clerk and informed them of the incorrect date in the letter. Hummel also contacted the U.S. Marshals Service (USMS) and Weaver's attorney, informing them both of the error. Judge Ryan, however, refused to withdraw the bench warrant.[29][self-published source][unreliable source?]

The USMS agreed to put off executing the warrant until after March 20 in order to see whether Weaver would show up in court on that day. If he were to show up on March 20, the Department of Justice claimed that all indications are that the warrant would have been dropped.


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The son had a gun because these were rednecks in the mountains. Literally everyone there had guns. They also hunted habitually and were following the dog in hope that it had found somethig for them to shoot and eat.

The father told his son that people were coming to get him, gave him a gun, and said he needed to guard the house. That is a pretty different context for why a kid had a gun than just "they were rednecks."

I don't want to relitigate the entire Ruby Ridge scenario, but you are painting the literal Nazi arms dealer as a hapless victim who was being unfairly persecuted, when that is very far from what happened.

Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Aug 21, 2023

Leon Trotsky 2012
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OwlFancier posted:

It's very hard not to see it as the cops doing apparently the only thing they are capable of doing in a professional capacity in the US. Legit even if the guy was a huge piece of poo poo it's the exact same police behaviour they use on everyone else, it's a perfectly fine example of the cops being utterly useless because they can't even arrest a nazi gun weirdo without also killing a pregnant woman and a kid

it seems like a pretty clear demonstration that all they can do is violence and they can't even do that properly and also that when they do it it makes things worse both immediately and systemically.

Nobody is saying the ATF and Marshals were correct. They explicitly changed rules of engagement after this because of what happened.

It's just that treating the Nazis who dodged court, the mail, and his own lawyers for 7 months while selling sawed-off shotguns to white supremacists and killed someone as helpless babes who were persecuted and setup because they were just accidentally selling sawed-off shotguns marketed as being sold in defiance of the tyrannical governments gun control laws that they had unknowingly sawed-off just a little too much is silly.

Leon Trotsky 2012
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Panfilo posted:

She's got half a million followers and the ear of the richest man on the planet, doesn't strike me as a nobody.

I mean if we're going to be pedantic, what self-described Libertarian isn't a nobody in the political sphere?

Every online poll I have seen says that Dr. Ron Paul is going to win the 2008 election in a landslide. You're going to look pretty silly on election day.

Leon Trotsky 2012
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Rappaport posted:

Remember that one dude who stripped on stage in the 2016 libertarian convention, to show off his Iron Cross tattoo? Pepperidge Farms remembers.

My favorite Libertarian convention moment is when they had a long debate about adding the legalization of child pornography to their platform.

Half of them were smart enough to realize that would be an absolutely terrible idea that would sink whatever limited appeal they already had and would never be implemented.

The other half were adamantly for it because if they opposed it, then it would be admitting that the theory that getting government regulation out of every scenario will improve every facet of society make their entire platform about the universal nature of that fact fall apart.

Libertarians love their theory, so there was a huge debate over it because if the theory wasn't 100% universal, then it meant everything they believed might not provide the answers to every possible problem.

Leon Trotsky 2012
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"The Washington Regime" is very funny.

America was a libertarian paradise until Americans took it over.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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As does the "Flipper" series.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Seems pretty obvious it was a "parent tries to victimize themselves by pretending it was all their kid's idea" and the school overreacted.

quote:

As you can hear his mom say in the video, Jaiden wanted to stand up for his (non-racist!) beliefs. So after he was kicked out of class, he asked his mom to take him to the news station to get the word out.

Yes, I'm sure that this was all Jaiden's idea and Jaiden demanded his mom go to the news station.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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Panfilo posted:

The dad in the Balloon Boy saga was actually vindicated in the end. The FBI threatened the wife with deportation if she didn't confess.
https://www.npr.org/2020/12/24/950074173/balloon-boy-parents-pardoned-by-colorado-governor-for-2009-hoax

That article doesn't say he was vindicated. That was just what the husband said when asked why he pleaded guilty. The FBI never interviewed them, the prosecution was done entirely by the state of Colorado. They served time for state crimes and not federal. Nobody actually cleared them and their kid said they told him to hide in the attic.

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They argue that they pleaded guilty only to avoid a worse punishment. Mayumi Heene was not a U.S. citizen at the time, and the couple said they feared she would be deported.

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When asked why he was hiding, Falcon answered: "You guys said that we did this for the show."

"Man," his father chimed in. "No," his mother said.

The family — featured twice on the popular reality TV series Wife Swap — was accused of planning the stunt to garner fame.

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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SlothfulCobra posted:

Is the implication that she's from the US's other failed attempt at a third party? Is there a fierce green/libertarian rivalry?

It's just lazy "the kid got in trouble for having a political message at school, but the teacher can have an environmental bumper sticker about politics and the school says that is fine? Discrimination against conservatives!"

Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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200 guys, a girl, and an anarcho-state.

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Leon Trotsky 2012
Aug 27, 2009

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The testimony from the expert witness brought in to the House hearing on impeaching Biden today went to... some unexpected places.

One of the members of the committee starts attacking him for his previous advocacy of the FLDS Mormon polygamist cult.

He starts awkwardly defending polygamists marrying multiple 16-year old girls as "religious freedom." He also said his reasoning for seeking out and defending a polygamist accused of raping a 13-year old girl in court was:

- "I admit, I'm pretty libertarian."
- He doesn't think morality laws of any kind are good
- He thought this might be a good case to try and get polygamy laws struck down.

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1707424832567026108

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