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Zaphod, I don't see that vehicles do have any special rule ref firing heavy weapons. If anything, leman Russes have a special rule saying just that for their turret weapon only, implying that most vehicles do take the penalty.xtothez posted:Something people are going to find really surprising to deal with this edition is the -1 penalty for moving heavy weapons. There's tons of units that will be less effective than people think unless they stay still (even IG superheavy tanks are generally hitting on 5+ if they move). I haven't checked every army yet, but rules like PotMS do seem to be quite rare. You're not wrong. I find it quite hard to consider all the changes at once. It's very easy to slip into thinking 'oh, well that's much better now' based on stats, points costs, or one special rule, when actually the context things operate in is wholly different. Like I assume most long term players, there are a lot of core assumptions, like the inability of vehicles to assault (and more recently their extreme vulnerability to it) which I need to shed before I can readjust to accurately telling at a glance what's good or what's poo poo. Which most of us could almost instantly with the previous rules, so I'm glad to see a shake up of any stripe.
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Jun 1, 2017 11:00
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adamantium|wang posted:Oh gently caress me, are all Dreadnoughts at -1 to hit with their heavy weapons if they moved? It's a big change, isn't it? Sort of the same effect as vehicles' previous restrictions on firing 1 weapon if they moved cruising spedd and snap firing the rest, although that sort of thing went through a hell of a lot of permutations from 3rd-7th ed and most commonly taken vehicle loadouts had some way around it. RagnarokAngel posted:Eldar vehicles can equip the crystal targetting matrix to bypass that. Elf supremecy. I think that specifies you ignore the -1 if you fire at the closest target though - way too conditional for me.
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Jun 1, 2017 13:18
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Hamshot posted:That, and all vehicles. Can't really think of any vehicle above a rhino stormbolter or a chimera with lasguns that doesn't use heavy weapons. I agree that the price hike and the new weapon/damage balance does seem to make things slightly more Infantry friendly. I consider that to be likely a good change because in my recent experience, most basic infantry was easily swept aside by the more competitive monstrous units. Bikes, very resilient special units and heavy firepower choices tended to dominate.
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Jun 1, 2017 14:25
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I don't know if it's good or bad. It's certainly something different!
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Jun 2, 2017 13:55
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MonsterEnvy posted:I found the Imperium's Psyker exploding and damaging a good chunk of their forces entertaining. Watched the video on the strength of this statement (don't usually watch 2hr+ youtube videos, but I had it on in the background last night). This was hilarious: their Imperial player re-rolled the dice for number of mortal wounds on his psyker - if he hadn't got a 3 on D3, his other units wouldn't take mortal wounds. He rolled a second 3. Later his hellhound blew up (on a 6, doing mortal wounds again). Spent a CP to re-roll. Another 6. HAH! Game looks like fun, holy hell it seems quite hard to down vehicles/monsters without dedicated high-damage weapons and good luck. The removal of casualties being from anywhere (ie the back, for assault units) and the increased Mov of some troops makes it seem like assault armies won't be underpowered, as some people thought at first with random charges/overwatch still in.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:44
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To add to the flood, I played my first 2 games of 8th today. My infantry-centric imperial guard against Tyranids, then Space Wolves, using 30 power. I seized the initiative both games and won both fairly handily! This makes them pretty useless for judging balance - seizing against an assaulting army with my shooty one was basically a decisive gift. Thunderwolves with storm shields - still terrifying. Tyranids - bloody fast, genestealers are good now. Imperial guard infantry are so cheap, with good orders, I think they're completely worth it. Not as impressed with the vehicles I took (a plain leman russ and a scout sentinel) but will try a couple games with points first. Orders are so useful. I own a few tanks and artillery vehicles but have always considered myself an infantry guard player. Interesting to see how they will fare with better efficiency and options, but without the blob squad and priest way of doing things. Very encouraging first experience, anyway.
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Jun 5, 2017 00:21
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TKIY posted:Who hasn't done this? This happened today! BATTLE REPORT: First proper game of 8th edition, we totted up the points, used detachments and command points, played an actual mission etc. I had Imperial Guard, my opponent Tyranids. 1000 points, mission was Eternal War 'Retrieval Mission', basically 4 objectives worth 3VP each, secondary objectives and random game length exactly as in the previous edition. We both used a Battalion detachment more or less (he had one too few HQ and I had one too many troops; we gave ourselves the command points anyway by mutual agreement). I chose the arrowhead setup, which is really just a bit of a tweak on the standard map - we were playing on my 4' by 4' table. His list: Broodlord 2 x 20 Genestealers 2 x Carnifexes, twin devourers 3 x Lictors Ripper Swarm (maybe 8-10?) My list: 1 Company Commander, 3 Pl Comd, 1 Commissar, 1 Primaris Psyker, 1 Tempestor Prime Scions Comd squad - 4 plasma guns Scion Squad - 10 models, 4 melta guns 6 x Infantry Squads - 3 melta guns, 3 plasma gun/autocannons 2 x Heavy Weapon Squads - 3 missile launchers, 3 autocannons 1 Basilisk - heavy flamer I kept deploying for long after him, which seems to be a constant with Imperial Guard. So many god drat units with all the 20pt characters forming their own thing. He kept his Lictors and rippers in reserve for deep strike. Similarly, I kept my Scion officer and both Scion units in deep strike reserve. So he went first, and this time I failed to seize. Tyranid Turn 1: I'm afraid I didn't get a pic of the opening. But he deep struck, and Lictors can re-roll their charge dice when they do! There are two out of shot on the Imperial Guard right flank here:  So I had 2 Lictors in assault turn 1 (they wiped out a heavy weapon squad and scored him First Blood) with another and the rippers chilling out in cover 9" away from my other flank. Meanwhile, the genestealer horde closed in . . .  Imperial Guard Turn 1: I counter-deep struck, killing one Lictor with my Basilisk heavy flamer and counter-assaulting another to tie it up. My reserves came in behind him - I deleted one Carnifex with 4 rapid firing supercharged plasma guns (even re-rolls weren't enough to save one storm trooper) and wounded the other with a meltagun. Casualties to his central genestealers (with broodlord) and the Rippers were insufficient. The Lictors absorbed a lot of fire, in retrospect it was probably a mistake to even shoot them. -1 to hit and +2 to saves in cover! Not bad for 41pts, my friend thinks. See below how close his ravening xenos are to my lines at the bottom of turn 1:   Tyranid Turn 2: The poor bloody infantry prepare to man the barricades and fight with faith and cold steel.  That Broodlord wanted a hug, and by god he got it. 2 squads utterly wiped. Genestealer squad of 10 or more (they had exactly 10 left; Overwatch did nothing) goes up from 3 attacks to 4. We didn't even realise that the Broodlord made them 2+ to hit, or that scything talons are a free upgrade and let them re-roll 1s to hit. This did not make a difference.  Things didn't exactly go any better on my left flank:  The group of fully 20 Genestealers hit those 2 squads like a whirlwind of alien claws, not even using half their attacks to wipe them.  Imperial Guard Turn 2: So the game was barely started, and there were alien monstrosities swarming over the sandbags and my home objective, with the Imperial Guard leadership cadre looking on in horror:  So they closed ranks, fixed bayonets, and withdrew right back to the board edge, prepared to sell their lives dearly. The 'Get Back in the Fight' order was pretty much all that gave me any hope of taking a few xenos down with me. Throughout the game it was a key order for me.   Last Stand time. I wish there was a better reason to take a regimental standard under the Index rules. It's a bit pointless now, and although it's cheap, it's an upgrade on the fairly pointless command squad!  On the brighter side, the special forces were having an easier time and definitely seizing the glory. The scion squad gunned down the second Carnifex as it bellowed defiance:  That was an impressive 15 wounds, on 3D6 damage from the 3 meltas that hit and wounded! This left my deep strike contingent in my opponent's uncontested backfield - his entire army was in my deployment zone!  Tyranid Turn 3: They closed in for the kill, with both 'stealer squads and the broodlord assaulting and removing my remaining infantry squads. Only the characters remained.  This continued through the bottom of turn 4, with my leaders going down one by one, with the Company Commander the Last to fall.  Now comes the good part: Tyranid Turn 5: he wounded my basilisk, brought his rippers back to hold my central objective, and cleared up in my DZ. The failure to kill the basilisk would rebound on him. Imperial Guard Turn 5: I am closing in on the objectives on his side of the table with my Scions.  Meanwhile, the last remaining Platoon Commander, filled with righteous vengeance and furious anger, charges at the remaining Tyranids. He kills the last 2 genestealers of one squad with a well judged grenade. He then charges and kills the wounded Broodlord with his sword. I am just so impressed. Dude is getting a paint refresh and some kill markings. If the game ended here, I would have won (hold 2 objectives to his one, despite first blood, we both have Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker. The roll says we continue. I chew my nails. Tyranid Turn 6: He races to remove my Scions from an objective. The genestealer speed is terrifying, and they tear apart the whole squad. This was about a 20" move and charge by the way. Their maximum threat range is 27".  However my opponent also uses his last, wounded Lictor to charge down my heroic Lt and avenge the Broodlord's demise. Wait - what's that you say? This gallant officer survived a grievous wound and slew the Lictor in return? Praise the Emperor!  Imperial Guard Turn 6: I am on 2 objectives, with a Tempestor Prime (Scions officer) and 3 command squad scions respectively. He holds 2 objectives with a Ripper swarm and a virtually unscathed huge mob of stealers respectively. If the game ends now, he would win due to First Blood. I clear his Rippers from his objective with a Basilisk's heavy flamer and (moving) earthshaker cannon - he fails his morale check by exactly the amount needed for his 2 remaining bases to run. Now I'd win if it ends. The roll says we go on. We both chew our nails. Tyranid Turn 7. The Tyranids go for broke, with Genestealers abandoning their objective, racing toward the Scion Command Squad to clear them off their objective for the swing. Success means he will go back to winning by First Blood.  He needs to roll a 7" charge. He rolls 6". The crowd goes wild!  Imperial Guard Turn 7: I move onto the Ripper-less objective. I hold 3 objectives to his none. He has also given up Linebreaker as his stealers are in the centre ground. Didn't add insult to injury by directing a last volley at them. I win 11-2. Summary: This was an amazing game, going right to the judges in the final turn. I crapped myself at the initial Genestealer assault. Lictors pinned me in place and drew fire, most of my line went down before I knew what the hell was happening. The only bright spot was my elimination of his supporting monsters with my own deep strike. While not as impressive as his main offensive, this was critical at the end due to position relative to objectives. We both agreed in hindsight that a) he might have preferred even more stealers to the carnifex. The shock action of all those attacks swarming at you, and the resilience of massed T4 5++, is really intimidating, and b) he should have sent a squad back to wipe my Scions earlier in the game - this could have still beaten me, as he definitely had me on the ropes from turn 2 (if not 1). Imperial Guard infantry and orders are great, and cheap as chips, but still have their weaknesses. They will die like flies and often their BS makes the 10-man squads (I am used to big blobs after the last 2 editions) seem laughably ineffectual. Scions are amazing. Basilisk I'm not sold on. The HF, which I only took as I glued one onto the model when I first built it, did more work this game than the main gun. Thoughts on 8th: Falling back, special advance+charge rules, and the removal of 'take from the front' casualties, all make assault vs shooting more balanced and also dynamic. Between movement and reserves, lots of armies can do nasty maneuvers and I expect to see some very bloody opening plays. We loved the simplified shooting, casualty removal, cover, morale and psychic rules. Command points were a very fun thing too. On a couple occasions we used re-rolls to try and win an advantage, only to roll the same or worse! Great fun. A picture of the survivors of the 1st Battle for Planet Bellummalleus VIII: An officer and 3 troopers of the [Classified] Regiment of Tempestus Scions, an officer of the Xth Cimmerian Infantry, and the crew of Basilisk 7/5, 12th Battery, aka 'Bug Burner'. 
Genghis Cohen fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 23:29
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Pendent posted:As he posted earlier in the thread TwingeCrag and I played a really solid first game of 8th edition today. I've got some thoughts of my own. TwingeCrag posted:My game with Pendent went just swimmingly. Seems like everyone is loving this new stuff. Completely agree that the rules changes seem mostly well thought out, new deep strike is terrific, shooting/assault seem more dynamic in how they balance each other. I am playing again today - going to take an Eversor this time.  Probably also some flamers as well - really could have used them last game.  Wish Marbo were still around though. 
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Jun 6, 2017 10:19
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Yeah I missed the matched play part. OTOH defenses are unaligned. If it's fun for you, go ahead I guess. FWIW, the buildings have Firing Points specifically - models can shoot out - so the Psykers inside can't do anything unless they disembark. Seems like a bit of a poor man's alternative to actually playing a game.
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Jun 6, 2017 23:34
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Huh. Good catch. I think the same rule applies to open topped vehicles. The rules for the Vortex seem really weird. Mortal Wounds inherently spill over between models (you do MW to the unit as a whole) but the way it's written implies you do the D6 MW to each model, with the spillover wasted. Maybe that's just me. If the normal procedure for MW applies, it can be quite a few hits on an elite unit. 5+ to hit can give you turns on end of sweet gently caress all though.
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Jun 7, 2017 00:52
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Is anyone clear on the new procedure for consolidation moves into contact with fresh units? My Tyranid-playing friend realised this is a great way to avoid, for example, flamer overwatch - assault a neighbouring unit, then consolidate into the flamer unit once you've fought against (and hopefully wiped) your first target. My questions are: - if you consolidate and come into contact with another unit, does that unit fight against you immediately? IE are they added to the queue of units awaiting activation in the Fight Phase of that same turn? - can the consolidating unit fight again (I'm pretty sure they can't), and do they count as charging in the next round? (again, I don't think so) These are the sort of things which will inevitably come up. I like the new very simple approach to rules they've taken, but it will cause some grey areas unless they release FAQs.
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Jun 7, 2017 04:35
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Soulfucker posted:Played a test game of 8th today - just the fact that there seems to be streamlining and something resembling basic unit synergy(wtf is going on) in the army books was enough to make me and my buddy immediately play a second larger game directly afterwards: How did you find the army setup? Imperial Guard infantry seem very flexible now; they got even cheaper while the more elite stuff, across the armies, seems to have gone up in price. I am having real issues trying to write a list for my Eldar, which I haven't tried out yet. My cheapest model is 17 pts (Dire avengers, which sucks colossally) and none of my 1000pt lists even have 30 models (I own a lot of jetbikes and fast stuff) - if I take 2 characters, that's about 300 straight off.
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Jun 8, 2017 01:16
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Strobe posted:So I was browsing through the IG stuff, and looking at the Tempestus Scions I realized that you can load down a full squad of them with four Plasma guns and a Plasma Pistol, deep strike them in rapid fire range, and give them the order to reroll 1s from a Tempestor Prime that can do the same thing, and give the order for two full squads. For just a little bit under 300 points, you can get 18 supercharged plasma shots rerolling 1s to hit that can deep strike, plus another 20 hotshot lasgun shots, also rerolling 1s. That's... a lot of guns for a decent chunk but definitely not crippling amount of points. It definitely seems worth it to have a Tank Deletion Group. They could all die on the following round and I'd still be hard pressed arguing against the kind of value. I have used these guys in both my games of 8th so far, and yes, they kick rear end. For perspective, a Scion officer and a command squad of 4xplasma guns was 145pts last edition. Now it's 40+64. I prefer the command squad to the regular one for suicide deep strike . . . outside 9" means outside rapid fire range for the hotshot lasguns, and of course you're paying for the guys. Command squads are not linked to number of HQs taken, you can just take the officer and 2 comd squads. As a general unit, a Scion with a hotshot lasgun is now 10pts and may just be a viable unit, but I think they'd be better off in the mechanised role. Apparently their Taurox Primes are fiendishly efficient gun-transports now? Like the 20 shot S4 gun is one of the most efficient all-round weapons in the game. Conversely, the traditional firepower of Leman Russes seems like it took a massive dive. You're not going to get many turret weapon hits with any of the main guns. (the exterminator and eradicator are just weedy; the vanquisher is still basically an inferior battle cannon) Sponsons and hull lascannon upgrades, which no longer snap fire from ordnance being fired, mostly went well up in price. Plasma cannons and the executioner in particular I want to call out. They are just not worth it - firing on normal power, the turret is pretty crap. Because any 1s remove the model outright (was this really something they couldn't write their way around on big vehicles?) the risk of super-charging is just unacceptable. Even with re-roll 1s, from a tank commander: that's a 1/36 chance of death per shot. With plasma sponsons, it puts out an average of about 8 shots a turn. It's nearly 25% to kill yourself every time you fire in the best possible situation. Don't think I'll be using Russes much, at least until a codex comes out.
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Jun 9, 2017 06:17
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Baddle cannons. Love it. My complaint about plasma isn't so much that I have to fire supercharged (which for most models, i.e. Infantry, I am massively in favour of) but specific to leman russes. Plasma on those is relatively very weak and expensive - it only becomes decent when you take the risk. Didn't realise the stock russes had the emergency vents: thought that was tank commanders only. Still a pretty big knock to self-inflict. I did just put together a chimera. 109 pts for 2 heavy flamers now. Dunno if it's worth it, but I guess we'll see.
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Jun 9, 2017 07:22
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Corrode posted:This is about as many DE as I can squeeze into 2k points. I swear I used to bring more than this at 1750. Not sure how much this list will actually kill things except for MCs/vehicles, I feel like if there's a lot of infantry around then maybe it'll end up with not enough shots Why the footslogging wracks unit? To take home objectives? Seems a bit out of place. I would be interested to hear how you get on with the wyches, as I'm not sure the coin flip of no escape is going to be enough to overcome the downsides of their fragility. Do you rate reavers? I bought some recently and they seem very, very expensive now. 30pts each and an eye watering 25 for each heat lance? Seems like they lost any punch they had in assault, and the units shooting besides the heat lances is contemptible. It's a lot to place into the hope of probably 5+ to wound a vehicle, with S6.
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Jun 9, 2017 11:14
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I think hellions might be worth a try from the FA slots? I see your predicament with troops. Maybe cheaper FA choices would let you squeeze in a venom for whatever you pick?
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Jun 9, 2017 11:36
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