Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Xoidanor posted:

I sure don't because thanks to them now I'm hollow. :argh:
Feeble.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Kimmalah posted:

I wish Dark Souls 2 would do something like that. As it is, if you quit the game it logs you out of the servers, takes you back to the main menu and logs you back into the servers when you try to exit completely. I've taken to just alt-tabbing out and closing the window manually.
Quit the game, then when the main menu comes up, Alt + F4. A little clunky, but less than your version.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
In Deus Ex: Human Revolution, you are working for your corporate mastermind ultra-CEO boss who takes on fishy military contracts while yapping on about how this is just to bring in money and seriously they are far more interested in all the good they can do with that money, the whole spiel. Of course halfway through the game you realize that he is actually evil and while that is partly true, you never really stop working for him and one of the endings is explicitly doing what he wants, which is not necessarily the "wrong" choice. At no point does he betray you, he only withholds information and you can call him on his bullshit without going all "I'm going to bring your organization down in flames, gently caress you".

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Gestalt Intellect posted:

There's another one in the undead crypt, I think those are the only ones though.
In the windmill, you can drop down from above to the bonfire that is halfway up behind a fog wall. Then you can traverse that one from behind. I got both the Gutter and that one on my first playthrough because behind fog doors, there are bosses, better get the Bonfire first :D.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Who What Now posted:

What's the easy way to get stuff from mimics?
Throw a Lloyd's Talisman at them, or whatever they're called in DS3 (they look the same and the description mentions the old name). Mimic gets sleepy, opens up, wait a few seconds and you can grab the item.

Nuebot posted:

What's really weird though is that its all based on proximity to the player though. You can mess around with it in the first area with the tower bonfire and the knight who walks out of the tower below the bonfire. He doesn't walk until you're close. There are some enemies that only move if they're on camera, too.
That's just normal scripting, though? I'd say it's a good thing, as it ensures that you will actually see things happen, and you can learn from previous experiences and replicate their setup. I mean they could have had the dragon firebomb the bridge all the loving time in DS1, too (after all, there's always Hollows on there for him to fry), but it's far more effective when you're there to get caught in it, no?

My personal little thing in DS3 is a pot full of Estus Soup. It's just so funny to me.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Nuebot posted:

They took out power stancing. You know, the coolest thing dark souls 2 added.
Everything you really wanted to powerstance in DS2 (like Caesti and curved swords and other quick-hitting stuff) now has a weapon variant that auto-powerstances you whenever you two-hand, so that takes care of that "problem" nice and easy. The payoff is that I can carousel my giant hammer three times then slam it into a fool, I know what I'm taking. 90% of the time, powerstance sounded really fun (I'LL POWERSTANCE TWINBLADES FOR QUADCOPTEEEER) but ended up being really lame (they just slash downwards like powerstanced halberds), useless (it's loving twinblades) and costing too much Stamina (pretty much all of them...except Caesti).

Joey Freshwater posted:

Is it worth getting Dark Souls 3 if I haven't played any of the other ones? You guys talking about it makes me want to play it.
It's really, really good. However, it is not an easy game to get started with. Though none of the Souls games are, really. I would say that DS1 has the most gentle start (the tutorial level is nice and simple and the beginning of the first area also eases you into things enough, once you start trying to get to the first boss over and over again and failing within seconds it starts to develop a cliff of difficulty you just have to power through and over), then becomes a steady high challenge with a few spikes and dips, DS2 is loving nasty to start with and then becomes a poor imitation game of "heh, traps amirite???" while not actually being hard with few exceptions (it is nice to play, though) and DS3 just starts pretty hard and so far hasn't let go. If you or someone else wants to get into it, keep these in mind:
- Carefully read what the game tells you. Tutorials are one thing, but also use the Select button to see what stats do. Read item descriptions to learn about special weapon features; keys often tell you where their lock is. Check out shopkeeper inventories, see if they have cool stuff to offer. Listen to NPCs.
- Every weapon is viable, test out a bunch and if you like one, upgrade it as far as it can go, having higher damage asap helps a lot.
- Explore, explore, explore. There are a ludicrous number of hidden paths and DS3 is amazing for hiding cool poo poo behind every corner.
- Don't be afraid to say "gently caress it" to one direction of exploration after a few deaths and search for alternate routes instead.
- You do not have to fight every single enemy every single time. Do to try kill everything in a zone at least once so you can safely look for secrets, but if you have done so once, keep an eye out for breakpoints like ladders, cliffs, doors, obvious zone transitions and such where you can lose pursuers. Just run past your problems, it is way better than trying to genocide every enemy every time while on your way to a difficult boss. Also, you are taking the wrong route to the boss, there is a shortcut that is more convenient. This is always true.

Simply Simon has a new favorite as of 15:06 on Apr 19, 2016

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

BioEnchanted posted:

Just got to the Swarm of Clerics fight. Not too hard until the second phase with the main guy. I think I'll try Iron Fleshing and just wading the gently caress in when he spawns because I kill large arcs of them at once, they have low health and no poise and I can keep a ton of Estus on hand. Just don't want to give him the chance to use his really mean Dark or Curse spells, or however he seems to be healing. I'm just glad I can basically ignore the encounter just before. 2 Pyromancers, One Cathedral Knight and One Black Knight? gently caress that. I can easily just run past. Also I've found the shortcut just on the other side of that encounter. The second giant can wait until I have better spells because he is surrounded by slowdown sludge and a million slimes. I'm gonna wait for exploding fireball, thankyouverymuch.
Second giant is also super easy, just go for it. Best of success with Congregation But Not A Huge Joke!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I got a SNES Mini more or less through a windfall and while I'm super happy in general to play some good old poo poo again, I am half looking forward to and half dreading Super Mario RPG. I've tried it out emulated two or even three times and could never get past the first few sections, first a purple crocodile was kicking my loving rear end over and over, then I surmounted it on my next try and promptly failed like crazy against the next boss. I think I'm doing something super wrong...or should maybe actually read the loving manual like it's 1996??? I had a great time with Partners in Time which everyone hates, so...

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

ImpAtom posted:

I mean you're using healing items right? That's the only thing I could think of that would stop you from beating Croco.

Edit: I don't mean that in a dismissive way, just that a lot of people sort of forget about healing stuff in RPGs sometimes.
It's been a while since my last attempt, so I honestly can't remember in what way I had trouble. I think the fight was taking far, far longer than I thought (I might really suck at timed inputs) and healing all the time would make it take even longer and I was getting really frustrated. I'll soon try it again (the console itself is currently waiting at my mother's), so if I still somehow suck at Classic Game Everyone Loves, I'll be sure to report back and whine so everyone can make fun of me!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Nuebot posted:

:stare: Well, uh. It's a game made for literal children. Did you try using your fireball skill against the crocodile? You can't really do anything wrong in Mario RPG. Outside of a small handful of enemies you can beat the game in like, an afternoon just mashing the attack button.
Listen, I don't know what I did wrong, I just remember having had a bad time twice now. Someone said that it's possible to not buy equipment, maybe I neglected that. I really, really don't know where my problems came from; I have beaten every Final Fantasy from 1-13 excluding 11, many of them including superbosses and poo poo, so it's not like a Square RPG should confound me, but it did. As I said, I'm super looking forward to addressing this eternal point of personal shame.

When I initially posted, I thought I was in the complaints thread, but I guess that will actually be a little thing that makes playing Super Mario RPG ages too late* for it to be relevant actually special in a way for me.


*I'm German, so I couldn't easily have played it before discovering emulators anyway!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Simply Simon posted:

Listen, I don't know what I did wrong, I just remember having had a bad time twice now. Someone said that it's possible to not buy equipment, maybe I neglected that. I really, really don't know where my problems came from; I have beaten every Final Fantasy from 1-13 excluding 11, many of them including superbosses and poo poo, so it's not like a Square RPG should confound me, but it did. As I said, I'm super looking forward to addressing this eternal point of personal shame.

When I initially posted, I thought I was in the complaints thread, but I guess that will actually be a little thing that makes playing Super Mario RPG ages too late* for it to be relevant actually special in a way for me.


*I'm German, so I couldn't easily have played it before discovering emulators anyway!
Update on this: I beat the loving crocodile. It was still relatively tight, though. He does a surprising amount of damage for the first proper boss, and I did buy the equipment to mitigate it. The cloud dude* was almost killed twice, and he's completely useless in the damage compartment - I want to save the FP for the Fireballs (which also seems to burn the Croco's tail, but only did so once?), so all he could do was eat mushrooms to not die. I was down to two at the end. The fight is also a few rounds longer than I feel it needs to be.

I do think I never bought the equipment before, and even if I did, I might have hosed up equipping it - switching to the right-hand-side list to "klick" the equipment over is kinda weird, imho. That might be the biggest source of my previous issues. Also, I never thought to just go all-in with the Fireball, if you just Attack with Mario and heal with the cloudguy, you'll never get anywhere I think.

I never realized before now that FP are shared with the whole party, maybe also something which caused me to gently caress up severely.

Oh, and I got killed by the Hammer Bros so maybe I still am just really, REALLY bad at Super Mario RPG. I kept thinking "only one's alive and he's probably gonna keel over with the next attack and then I'll level up, so no need to waste a mushroom

okay but next attack he's dead

okay if he does another Hammer Time I'll bite it but he MUST be dead now

oh"

Why is this game so hard :psyduck:? I really enjoy it though! It's fine that it's harder than "the first 10 hours are basically tutorial" RPGs that I guess I'm a little too used to, it just requires an unexpected shift in how I usually tackle RPGs, I guess.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Who What Now posted:

Are you doing the timed attacks?
Yes I am! Mostly successful, even.

It is possible that they expect you to grind a little, which is something I have almost completely weaned myself off of (except for rare drops and challenges when I really like the game). I was "just" level 3 against the croc, maybe that makes a huge difference? I have the impression that most people play RPGs (and other games, hell, I see Bloodborne players doing that) by going "ah this enemy is easy enough to beat and gives okay experience, I know what I'm doing the next 5 hours", and I did that too when I was 10. Sooo maybe if you do that by default (or did it when you first played SMRPG), then it IS really easy? I have no idea of the underlying formulas and how much levels and stats really matter...

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Who What Now posted:

Yeah, it sounds like you're underleveled. Luckily you don't really need to "grind" much because even one or two levels is a pretty huge power increase. Like even just one or two points in Attack can be the difference between dealing damage in the low teens vs in the twenties.
That makes a lot of sense and very probably is the exact source of my troubles!

I guess it's weird to assign the "difficulty" moniker to "requires just a single level of grinding", but I hope it's ultimately clear why I kept being bewildered by a game where you can have loads of trouble against the first real boss in the game if you don't go at least a bit out of your way to train. Unless we're talking, like, Ys or Lufia, I can't think of any even semi-modern RPG where this would be an issue so early. For sure not in contemporaries like FF6 (okay, a bad comparison because that game never develops any semblance of difficulty), Chrono Trigger or Secret of Mana.

Thanks everyone for helping me clear up this thing that's been annoying me for quite a while now :). I'll start playing the rest of the game now and already I'm looking forward to more of the gorgeous spritework and the rather funny writing. I found Toadstool's ??? :xd:.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Guy Mann posted:

SMRPG being of the age where grinding was expected if not outright mandatory in RPGs is made worse by the fact that its lite platforming elements and lack of random encounters mean that you're actually penalized by playing well since you miss more encounters and have less experience.
It came out a year after Chrono Trigger which is somehow perfectly tuned that if you avoid all the annoying encounters, you're still leveled quite comfortably. It probably forces* you into enough fights that you can avoid pretty much everything you really don't care for and it'll still work out. Both games have encounters on the world map which is a super rarity for that time period (heck, even still) and are from the same company, so I don't know if "it's just the way things were" counts. I made sure to fight more things but hell, if a game lets me skip trash mobs I sure as hell will.

Come to think of it, I did mention Secret of Mana as another game from the same time period and you can grind as much as you want to, the first few bosses will still kick you rear end (especially that drat tiger). Maybe Square just had some solid misses in the "early game difficulty curve" department round that time...

Nuebot posted:

:eyepop: the game caps at 30, I'm sure a low level run is possible but it wouldn't be very fun. You don't have to grind too, too much in the game but I'd suggest at least getting mario above level 5, I usually do before the croco fight. Once you get a party member who isn't complete garbage the game gets less frustrating. No one likes mallow.
Level 5 before the Croco fight? I just arrived at Rose Town and am only Level 6! That sounds a bit high to me. Also, Mallow owns because he has an AOE attack, I depend on the little guy to make fights go faster (IF I do the fights, haha).



*I've read a low-level LP where they avoid far more things than you really think you could, but I count those as "barely intended for your to skip" and that's a very special circumstance anyway...

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

EmmyOk posted:

I really like the dynamic music in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, basically the bosses have their own music and when you do certain moves or get to certain points the music changes in certain ways and it's super fun even if the music is super dorky and cheesy.

It has to be this way.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I wonder if the remake removes the ability to multicast every spell forever if you tell the AI to do it, so that the boss never gets a turn if you do it correctly.

Because I stumbled upon that as a kid playing the game and cheesed every boss forever, so I'd be tempted to try the remake just on the basis of it not letting me do that even if I'm tempted...

Also, I'm super curious if it is therefore confirmed as a bug, or if they don't remove it, if it always was a feature.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Blind Sally posted:

I thought lightning bolts were good for dealing with the boars? I remember getting thru the halls to the archives without too mich trouble. i seem to remember farming the area to get the boars head helmet

The boars don't respawn, but the last one always drops the helmet if you haven't gotten one before. Musta been a short farming session ;).

Fire works okay against them, and every build can pyromance. The enemies after are also resistant to physical and weak to fire, so maybe it's meant to teach you something. However, two-handing a big weapon also works well, so I keep learning the wrong lesson!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔


A Hat in Time is loving funny

(that's someone accusing me [the girl] of the murder. And it's true, she did it, look at that stare)

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Nuebot posted:

Clunky as hell, yes, but I'd never call it bad. Especially compared to other games of the era and even many games in the gamecube/PS2 generation. Mario 64's camera was, by and large, servicable. You didn't always have quite the control you'd want over it and it had a tendency to zoom in and out more than you'd want. But you weren't often stuck facing the rear end end of something irrelevant, and I can't recall any point during my various playthroughs where the camera focused on a piece of geometry and prevented me from being able to play the game.
People were talking about Mario 64's camera a lot in an LP I watched of a romhack of it (yes, those exist now). The romhack had noticeably worse camera issues than the original, and that was not just due to its difficulty being higher; as far as I remember, Mario 64's camera is actually meticulously crafted to work together with the level geometry, making it zoom out, in, sweep, go low etc. depending on Mario's position. It works well in most circumstances because they made it work, and recreating that in a romhack is fiendishly difficult.

Other early 3D platformers don't go to nearly as much of a length to try and make their camera work always, opting to make it "better" in general (more fluid, giving you more control, allowing it to "cheat" by making things transparent) but thinking that's enough. Often, it isn't.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I think the biggest issues older games had with status effects is conveyance - let's just assume I'm talking about SNES-era final fantasies because I'm most familiar with them. If a status effect hit an enemy, you wouldn't see anything change - no icon showing they're slowed, no colour change to show them asleep, nothing. So you might think you missed them entirely, but that's not true - usually, if you miss them, it SAYS "Miss". But then you'd have to figure out: does this mean you missed them, or are they immune, because status effects have a chance to work? Would you not be served better by just hitting them instead? It's quite frustrating to figure it out and even modern games still haven't quite figured out how to do it well, I think. An "immune" message is nice, but if you missed, how low is your chance really? Can you actually remember this for every enemy, and do you bother to find out?

I think Final Fantasy 13 and 13-2 did a great job at this, actually - you have a dedicated debuff class that just throws Poison, Defense lowering, magic Defense lowering, Silence, whatever at the enemy automatically and if you check the enemy stats with a simple button press, for each status you attempted, it will give you an "immune y/n" symbol and you can just do things like queue up four Silences in a row so one will probably hit eventually. And they also deal some damage AND keep their Stagger gauge up, the main damage mechanic. So it never feels useless to attempt for statuses.

But on the usefulness of statuses in general - FF5 actually had almost every boss be vulnerable to something. And there's multiple ways to stick statuses onto enemies beyond "cast a spell that might or might not hit". For example, you can put Sleep on your sword and if the enemy is vulnerable, it will ALWAYS hit, and that makes Atomos, a big bad black hole looking motherfucker completely unable to do anything. You can Silence far more bosses than you'd think as well. You can Berserk the superboss Shinryu, so he can't do anything but smash your face in (that's its own problem, but a solvable one). The other superboss Omega can be Stopped, which from a Time Mage would have to go through his ludicrous magic evasion, but from a Bard singing a "hold still" song? It'll always hit.

There's even a multitude of bosses that are specifically vulnerable to instant death effects. You can Break (turn to stone) Carbunkle after he starts healing himself, because that is an invisible formchange of his which loses his immunities. Same for Twin Tania, who charges up a devastating attack which will gently caress you up - but loses his instant death resistance. You can do anything to him in that form, including the super powerful Level 5 Death which kills anything with a level a multiple of five - and the form change turns Twin Tania into a level 25 monster. Instead of making every boss categorically immune to level 5 death, the developers instead opted to make every single boss other than the ones they want you to use it on a level that's not divisible by five - that's dedication to letting their toolbox work. And you can make it work, because you can alter enemy levels!

The final boss has four parts. One of which is vulnerable to instant death, one can be paralysed, one can be silenced, one can be blinded. Status effects are ridiculously useful in FF5.

Now how would you know about any of this? WELL. Bringing us back to the "conveyance" problem.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
One of my buddies has the superpower of "look up". We were playing Twilight Princess together back when it was new and I kept getting stumped by the stupidest things and he just kept saying the dumbass catchphrase "gazing skyward will reveal many problems" and he was right every. single. time.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I got the original Unreal recently and tried it out a bit, it's pretty fun, but "rub your face against every object" is absolutely in full swing. I never know if I'm just super dense with a puzzle or if there's a button somewhere and it's always the latter; just a brick sticking out or like a plate on the ground. I'm just not used to looking for things like that, I'll try to like shoot through the bars of the gate blocking me to hit something that's maybe a switch behind it, I'll even look up, but it's just not the kind of game I can "solve" today. I get lost in the levels because they're super huge and nonlinear, I don't know if the jumping puzzle is mandatory or not, I don't know if I just glitched through the fan pushing me back or if it's intentional (I looked it up, it's the latter, and it's just janky - spent half an hour looking for a way to turn off the fan but you're just supposed to...push through it...sideways?).

That's not much of a complaint, it's just how games were back there, trying to find themselves in 3D space, but I don't think I can go back there. A bit of a pity - the shooting itself is fine, and I like the way it does "scans" Metroid Prime-style, that's actually really brilliant!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Ugly In The Morning posted:

As far as video game logic and interactions go, Prey nailed it. You can interact with basically any door, computer, body, etc. You have tools that behave in specific ways and will always behave that way. If there’s an obstacle, you can take a look at what tools you have and basically any reasonable solution will work.
BUT

WHAT

DOES

REPLOYER

DO

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Kit Walker posted:

Is it really so common for players to find themselves stumped because they just don't look up? Any time I can't immediately figure out the solution to some puzzle I'll scour every corner of the room I'm in for hints and that means looking up as well. We joke about enemies in games having incredibly poor sight but maybe that's closer to reality than we'd like to believe
It depends on what kind of games you're used to, and what the game itself plays like. I played (and play) a lot of 2D Zelda games, where "looking up" simply is not an option to design a puzzle - when a 3D one like Twilight Princess comes along it kind of fucks with my expected "puzzle toolbox". I did play the N64 ones before (can't remember if I got Wind Waker before or after TP), but the rooms there are so small and boxed in that you can usually see right up to their ceiling. I kept missing hookshot points in TP because they could be sooo far up, I didn't even think to look, because I was so used to just seeing them in plain sight. Also, I played both Ocarina and MM with a guide, that didn't help :v:.

In a game like Batman: Arkham Asylum, it's far more natural for me to look up because Batman as a vertical fighter is so baked into the game itself. You constantly are expected to get the drop on enemies from above, to look for poo poo to hang from, to grapple up places, it's actually the FIRST solution I check. But I think "looking up" still hasn't quite entered my typical problem solving instinct yet. I just don't play that many games where it's necessary; camera is for keeping track of enemies on the same plane as I am, not look for poo poo above or below.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

My Lovely Horse posted:

Okay but who doesn't immediately go "let's check the minimap to see where exactly he meant"?
Many people.

Hell, when I played NieR, I already knew that there is SOME fuckery with the fishing, so I was extra careful, and thought maybe the fuckery is that he says "beach" but actually you're supposed to fish at the pier you start out on, because fishing at a pier is more sensible than at a beach anyway. So I tried it at the pier futilely a few times, double super tricking myself into doing the wrong thing.

Also I had to look up the fishing controls themselves because they are super easy but completely wrongly explained. The game says you should hit A at the correct time or whatever when ALL you have to do is angle the stick opposite to where daddy Nier is leaning and let the bar run out. You can hit A on the last 15% of it or so to make it go quicker, but if you hit A too early, you instantly gently caress up. It's really dumb.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Len posted:

It's been years since I played that one but wasn't the only thing SotN got the new translation?
It got the Saturn features, so playable Maria and Richter can visit the unfinished garden area (I think that was not in the PS version?). Also some extra items, mostly cosmetic gag stuff like the demon familiar wearing a stupid mask.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I have never played any fighting game, so they might as well be random to me. There is a HUGE amount of hidden button combos (and...other hidden things) in SotN, none of which you need to beat the game in any way, most are a neat bonus at best, kinda useless because too hard to input reliably at worst.
Alucard's special abilities he always has, and if you know the buttons, you can immediately use them. If you don't know the buttons, you have to wait until scrolls with the buttons spelled out on them unlock in the shop, can be a while into the game, but you'll eventually get them all.
Weapon special abilities the game never tells you about, many weapons have one, many have TWO, and some even have extra interactions that don't match the typical pattern. I recently played SotN blind (on the PSP version, never having even seen the Saturn one, so sorry for the misinformation about that), and only knew that there were weapon combos, but didn't want to bother with them, especially not look them up. Eventually, the weapon I was using did...something weird out of nowhere and it seemed awesome so I got curious, and just tried pressing buttons. I eventually stumbled upon the correct combination, tried that with a bunch of other weapons, and quickly found out that there is exactly two combinations that give you the extra effects on 95% of the weapons in the game.

So while it is hidden, it's not necessary, it's mostly consistent and you can find out about it on your own. That's fair enough, I think.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Is Aria/Dawn of Sorrow not enough for you? I really enjoy in those games that every time you play, you'll get different Soul drops, or you might decide to actively grind a rare one asap this time, and you have "normal" weapons to use on top of that.

Also, contrary to SotN, the Sorrows are not trivial after a point/excluding Garamoth-shaped outliers, so there's actual incentive to get good with your current setup and/or experiment with new ones.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I never ground in Dawn the first time around and it was fine, dunno why you feel you have to. I also didn't fuse anything. Maybe that made it harder, but I felt like the bosses were comparable even on my "get everything" runs later. They "just" take a bit longer, which is fine as they're mostly fair.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Smirking_Serpent posted:

Castlevania: Symphony of the Night: when you have a fist-weapon equipped, Alucard will do a divekick if you jump and press down-right + attack.
I'm pretty sure he can do that regardless of weapon as soon as you get the double jump. As can every protagonist afterwards (at least Soma onwards). It's sadly a little clunky in SotN, there's nothing better than doing "the floor is lava" from candle to candle.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I'm slightly salty because I haven't been excited for a videogame in quite a while now, mostly deliberately, but I really wanted to play Spyro. I didn't pay attention to release dates like usual but decided to check early in November because I felt like it should come out soon, or maybe it was already?

Learned that it was supposed to have come out already in mid-October, but they pushed it back to mid-November, so that was a bit of a bummer, but otoh something to look forward to! And it wasn't like I had the initial October date in mind anyway, so that's nice.

Then the day before it comes out, something else crosses my mind. I think I want it on PC because my Steam library is quite full but empty of things I actually WANT to play, but I do have a Switch here and maybe Spyro on the go? So I check if it's actually on Switch, and...

...oh.


My PS4 is back in Germany :(. gently caress me for assuming that things just come out on all platforms, I guess. I'm 100% sure that it will be on both Switch and PC eventually, but it's still a bit annoying.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I'm also playing TWEWY right now, and I decided to go through it without any grinding it doesn't encourage me to, and it works just fine; I just cannot equip almost anything from the shops, which is fine because it doesn't feel necessary at all. Everything with a substantial bonus, Neku isn't man enough to wear anyway for a long time.

I don't know how the game will end and how it's structured, but it heavily hints at there being an extensive postgame and/or NG+, considering the highest difficulty option hasn't even been unlocked yet (and I feel like I'm heading towards the endgame), a huge number of sidequests/-activities so far were extremely missable and seemed impossible to do without prior knowledge anway, and the insane amount of stuff I have no way of buying/wearing without doing the world's most idiotic grind for no reason.

I'm looking forward to seeing how much it opens up after beating the story, and then I'll decide how much I want to do. The best thing about it is probably how much of this freedom it allows the player: no random encounters, no set difficulty for them, completely open about all drop chances which you can directly influence...of course there's a lot that's still hidden (like when and how pins will evolve), but overall it feels completely honest for better or worse*, and that's quite refreshing.


*the style and themes are ridiculous, but that's part of the charm as well in a way.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

FactsAreUseless posted:

In Final Fantasy 12 you can take airships between major cities. You can choose to either just fade to black and arrive instantly, or actually ride the airship. The airship is basically a small cruise ship with bars, shops, rooms, even a viewing deck where you can see the world pass by below. There's no reason for it to exist and there's no reason to ever use it, but I'm so glad it's there.
I the Zodiac editions, there is a 1/100 chance for an invisible treasure chest to spawn on the airship deck. This chest has a 20% chance of even containing an item, and if you have a certain accessory equipped, this item has a 5% chance to be the Seitengrad, an invisible bow that is the strongest weapon in the game.

Apart from that hilarity, there's also a sidequest where you have to ride all the possible routes the airships can take and talk with each of the flight attendants there, because there's seven sisters doing the job and they're pestered by seven brothers who want to marry them, and there's a bet that if you can speak to all the sisters, they don't have to marry the brothers, who they hate. If you manage to win the bet for the sisters, they give you some actually kinda nice stuff!

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

John Murdoch posted:

:confused:

Seriously tho, devs shouldn't inflict that bullshit on players. Including it in the game at all means it becomes part of the intended playspace and in a genre dominated by grinding and making numbers go up, people will get riled up over super powerful weapons like that even if the means of obtaining them is obnoxious.

Yeah it's really funny, I agree

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Seitengrad is neither cool nor fun, and nobody is forcing you to use it. You're making the game actively worse for yourself if you get it. How is this a problem.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
I don't think you all have even played Final Fantasy 12. It's a game that consists entirely of optional challenges, the rewards of which scale linearly with how difficult and obscure they are, and depending on how you go about things, you conceivably do a whole lot of them at level 1 and within an hour into the game. The game is absolutely, 100% open and free for you to gently caress around in, and just because you CAN kill a giant fuckoff dinosaur from the word go [after doing three hours of prepwork], doesn't mean you SHOULD, and 99% of people playing FF12 will instantly understand this because the dino will hand their loving rear end to them.

Nobody except for people who really like FF12 even know that the Seitengrad exist, and of those, only 1% will be idiotic enough to try and get it, and hopefully MOST will be smart enough to look up the RNG manipulation method some even greater weirdos have posted on the internet. Its existance is not a problem unless you remove the entire context of the game to make some weird point about games in general on the internet.

Like, one could argue that "the most optimal way to play" is to get Vaan to Level 99 the very moment you gain the ability to leave town, and you can do that, and everybody else will also join at Level 99 afterwards, and the game will be super easy. Ulililia has made a video series detailing that process, and he also made another video to show how you can do the same with Vaan and Penelo, and later with Vaan, Balthier and Fran in the party. It takes about 30 hours. But you can! And then you're the highest level with the highest number! How dare the game designers not prevent the player from doing such an obviously idiotic thing by for example capping the level per story chapter?

FF13 did that. And it loving sucked.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔
Zodiac Age is an extremely good game, but in one way the people whining about it that never even played it are correct: it does test your self-control. If you feel the need to do every sidequest and optional thing as it becomes available, you will
a) get burned out severely
b) get your teeth kicked in

If you are able to pace yourself, can say "I will do this later when I'm stronger...or never", and accept that yes, there's still some boneheaded decisions left over from the original FF12, then it's a wonderful game where you can do exactly as much or as little you want to do. But really, again, do all of the optional stuff when it interests you, when you're strong enough for it, or never.

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

FactsAreUseless posted:

All four Wario Lands are extremely good
I really hate Wario Land 3, but I can with full confidence* say that you could pick up and play WL2 right now and have a phenomenal time. The game hasn't aged at all and the structure is so good, it's a true shame it hasn't been copied to hell and back yet.

WL1 is a bit dated but really not bad for a GB platformer, WL4 is also great but you really gotta love obscure secrets and replaying it a bunch to get ALL the content. Amazing when it was new and I had it on GBA on a skiing trip for the long evening of aching muscles.


*I got it on 3DS virtual console last year and had a blast replaying

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Lunchmeat Larry posted:

I couldn't complete wario land 2 as a kid because I couldn't find the secret exit in escape from the factory. That level is burned into my brain and it's too painful to go back
That one's a complete poo poo. Even as an adult, I got stumped all over again. You really have to just bash and smash every wall and floor.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Simply Simon
Nov 6, 2010

📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

RareAcumen posted:

Yeah, people being too smugh and GIT GUD about poo poo lead to the only information anyone had about game being 'it hard, game hardest no handhold hard game, game no baby you game hardest hard game for real gamers hard' so no one had any actual information to use going into it so of course situations like 'I guess 2 damage an attack is how this works' and 'I guess the enemies are just this tough in this game as they go to the graveyard' because what other game puts enemies that dangerous so close to the starting area? Fallout: New Vegas?
There's plenty of "Eurojank" RPGs that do this kind of design rather than establishing hard gates in their worlds. Gothic 2 has a lot of extremely hard enemies around the starting area, if you stray from the path towards the first town even a little you WILL get eaten by wild pigs. Then once in town you can start hunting animals and oh boy is the game telling you hard that you better hire a companion, because you will immediately encounter bears in the forest that kill your poo poo.

Bonus: my companion got killed by the bear, then I finished the bear, and I got free awesome loot!

Even jankier game Two Worlds has zero gating for everything so you constantly run into extremely difficult encounters. Fortunately, you are invincible when backstepping, so you can win against everything by just hitting the backstep button a lot. I once beat up a gate guard who was mouthing off with this tactic, gaining me access to a rebel camp way earlier than I was supposed to, and they all acted like I had killed the king for them, really good poo poo.

And less western, you can just immediately walk to a lategame town in Final Fantasy 2, IF you can handle the monsters along the way.

quote:

Anyway, I'm pretty sure there's a Zweihander in the graveyard but I don't know about a holy weapon. Was there a whip that was holy over there or something?
No, John Murdoch is right, Astora's is down the valley of drakes path, where you can only go if you start with the Master Key.

Funny story about that: I too started with the Master Key in my first time playing DS, opened the door with it, and after years of playing Zelda, thought that lost me the key and I didn't actually want that, maybe it'd be way more useful on a later door?! So I made a new character, didn't pick the Master Key so I couldn't accidentally lose it (I know, weird logic), and never sequence broke again.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply