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MarksMan posted:Here's what they had to say when I dare mention the rational fact that this would have to be voted on and get a majority...it's a "disgusting statement": Are you really begging goons for ammo to help you win a ridiculous facebook argument? Actual slavery isn't going to come back because there are plenty of legal ways to oppress and exploit people of color.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:02
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Mukip posted:Slavery was a long-standing practice in Africa before the Europeans showed up, with slaves captured by other African tribes being sold to the Ottoman Empire for centuries beforehand. Apparently some North African states still practice outright slavery to this very day. It's not all about white racism and Africans were participants as well as victims of the slave trade. Arguably, if the Africans and Ottomans hadn't already set up a fully functioning system of slavery before the Europeans showed up then there might not have been any slaves transported to Africa at all, since it wasn't a European invention in the first place. That's not to say that there wasn't immense cruelty and suffering inflicted by the Europeans/colonialists on the African slaves. You realize white supremacists love this bullshit argument, right? Slavery existing across the ancient and medieval world, including Europe, does not absolve Europeans from the mass forced migration of African chattel slaves to be worked to death in the Americas. Slavery isn't a European or African invention, it is a Human invention because we historically are terrible to each other. There's no way to argue this point that 'Africans did it first!' without sounding like a massive tool. The Atlantic Slave Trade may not have been directly based in racism but it very quickly created a deep and pervasive racism against Africans in the Americas which easily transferred over to Africans in general.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:09
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New Division posted:So can anyone advance an convincing argument that whites in the US would re-institute slavery if allowed to that is not based on paranoia? I have to repeat my question as to what the point of re-instituting slavery would be in an economy where unskilled labor is not particularly valued anymore. Slavery's initial practice and growth in the US was driven by shortages of manual laborers as much as anything else, and there's no real lack of those in the modern US. Wealthy people would love to have free domestic help. Certain forms of unmechanizable agriculture also, as well as sex slavery. All of these forms of slavery currently exist in the US today.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:49
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Mukip posted:Slavery existed in the ancient world in Europe; but it took off in the colonial period when Europeans came into contact with African tribes selling slaves. I think it's perfectly reasonable to hypothesize that if it weren't for the slave trade in Africa already existing at that time, then there might not have been a transatlantic slave trade at all. "If a thing didn't exist in history, then it couldn't have had an impact on history" is not exactly a compelling or well-considered statement. I also theorize that if Europeans had not bought and shipped African slaves across the Atlantic ocean, then there would not have been a transatlantic slave trade. Let's all agree that we are very smart and well-read people.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:57
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Mukip posted:That's missing the point. Colonial slavery is often attributed to a non-economic explanation of white racism, and pointing out that the African slave trade existed independently of Europeans is worth pointing out to correct that. I am not arguing that racism somehow doesn't exist or wasn't a factor in the slave trade or whatever it is you are insisting in reading into my posts. The only time I've ever seen the whole "Africans did slaves too!" is in defence of slavery and white supremacy. Everyone back then did slavery. Europeans industrialized the practice, and in doing so contributed enormously to modern notions of racism. It's kind of tone deaf to minimize the racism of medieval peoples by creating softer explanations of the practice in a way that is suspiciously similar to something that would show up in the Ron Paul Report. New Division posted:Paying migrant workers token wages is usually how domestic help and the remaining agricultural work is done in the US. I think that most of the wealthy is happy with being able to pay peanuts and sever relationships with poor wage workers at will (aka "OK, harvesting is over, now gently caress off till next year"). Now that's exploitation for sure, but it's not slavery in the classic sense at all. Sure, but there are instances of this turning into actual literal slavery, in the United States, within the last few years. As in the police show up, knock down doors, and encounter some highly distressed non-english speaking individuals who had had their freedom restricted. Now many exploiters just go the safe legal route and pay two bucks an basket to undocumented migrants to pick tomatoes, but only because nobody wants to be convicted of actual slavery. Were the law relaxed we would certainly more of these jobs transition to slavery. An estimated 5% of migrant pickers in Florida are actual literal slaves. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jun 14, 2014 |
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Jun 14, 2014 22:07
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Mukip posted:As I see it, you are pretty much just rewording what I already said and then accusing me of being a closet white supremacist. I don't really care if you have anecdotal experience of somebody who made a similar arguement who was racist. If you don't like being accused of being a closet white supremacist, don't make arguments that only closet white supremacists make. Whether or not Africans had slaves has nothing to do with why Europeans bought African slaves. The existence of African slavery does not somehow preclude European racism.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:14
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New Division posted:The racism developed as a result of the trade, There's really no way of knowing this, given that modern racism has roots in the Enlightenment. But there's no reason to assume that Europeans somehow weren't racist, otheriziation and looking at people different from you as inferior is a constant strain of human society. One could make the argument that there were few specific reasons for Europeans to be racist against Africans before the slave trade but I don't know why unless someone's trying to disassociate racism from the purchase and transport of humans to die in forced labor. Mukip posted:Or alternately, stop making GBS threads up the thread with your unnecessary hostile attitude. Whether an arguement "sounds like something a baddy would say" has no logical bearing on it's merit. I've made my point that not only is your argument bad, but it's a carbon copy racist argument. Focusing on how insulted you feel is just ignoring the fact that your argument is also bad.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:21
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New Division posted:Slavery doesn't always involved another race. It would be pretty drat difficult to argue that Roman slavery was based on race. It was really just based on "oh poo poo, I just lost in a war and now I belong to this dude who beat me" The existence of non-racially based slavery in general does not mean that any other system of slavery in particular is not influenced by racism. There is the possibility, but something simply being possible is not proof that it is so. Also, our idea of 'race' is entirely artificial anyway, which makes it fluid over time. There very well could have been some sort of quasi-racial component to Roman slavery, on top of the socioeconomic or self-identity aspects.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:28
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MarksMan posted:Yes, you figured it out. I need to feel superior on Facebook so I gathered the collective "Force" of the Goons to make myself rebut with a superior argument. You could also just listen and ask why they feel this way, instead of arguing that they're wrong. While I feel the opinions in the OP are extreme and unrealistic, I'm also not surprised. The underlying fear that African Americans will continue to be unfairly dominated and exploited by a society created by and for white Americans is an entirely valid and rational thing. Literal slavery isn't likely to come back but there are enough institutions that impose similar hardship on non-white individuals that slavery is useful as a metaphor for continual poor treatment.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:37
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MarksMan posted:He was referring to all white people as devils, so that would include me, no? And yes I agree my life would have been less comfortable if I was black. You're not on trial for being white, dude. Relax.
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Jun 15, 2014 05:47
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Is this now the general unpopular posters complain about D&D's monolithic ideology thread?
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Jun 15, 2014 18:48
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Sucrose posted:And I usually do not argue idealistic positions, but your position is so unrealistically far in the other direction there's not much choice. I also take the worst possible interpretation of someone's words to give me something to get mad at, over the internet. THis is a hobby i enjoy very much,
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Jun 15, 2014 19:34
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the servers are burning down
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 19:59
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Sucrose posted:As I said on Page 3, anyone who thinks the current status quo of racism is no better than actual slavery is a fool, or trying to be edgy. I, also, think that people who think obviously stupid thing are obviously stupid. Now that we've all hit our sanctimonious outrage quota let's stick to things people actually said in this thread instead of things that people might have said if you want to take a grossly uncharitable interpretation of their words for the sole purpose of injecting your unrelated opinion into the thread. Rogue0071 posted:As a far leftist myself, I guess I, and almost all far leftists I know, missed that memo. That's a ridiculous caricature. Please don't say that we should murder all non-whites. THat's a horrible thing to say and you should feel ashamed of yourself. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 20:00
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Arkane posted:Completely made up bullshit unsupported by facts or logic. So are you fakeposting as an intense bitter teabagger or is that still your actual schtick? Given that you were whining about D&D groupthink earlier you've yet to diverge from the butthurt exile playbook. Screaming about FACTS and LOGIC without doing anything to substantiate your arguments is just sour grapes, duder. Anyway, it's pretty much common knowledge that a huge portion of the US population has an enormous hate on for Obama for no other reason seemingly than he's black. See all the conspiracies that he's a secret tyrant, employs the welfare state to prop up his unconstitutional agenda, etc. Hell, there's even all this rightist propaganda about being kept on the mental plantation, purportedly targeted at black voters but really for resentful white voters. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 06:50
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Arkane posted:This is a sentence that the poster made up out of thin air because it sounds good and/or the poster is insane and/or under the influence: "Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly." This one too: "Those people aren't reacting to Obama as a politician; they're reacting to the fact that his election seemed (and mostly only seemed) to destabilize the established racial hierarchy." Neither of these are all that unlikely nor incomprehensible, instead of trying to demonstrate why your jimmies are rustled you just assert that the people who said it are dumb and illogical. Great thanks good contribution, I'd like to remind you all that Arkane is a famously limp dicked poster who contributes to that constellation of dead forums dedicated to being angry and upset that SA isn't their own personal hugbox and yet isn't smart enough to get a new alt account or simply stop posting here. There are more than enough examples of white people freaking out about Obama because he is a Like you can't just count for your own cracker outrage to carry your argument, simple shouting at the wind isn't going to cut it friend and registering your personal disagreement over the statement "Except most whites are actually not appalled by the thought of making blacks subservient at all, sadly." counts for pretty much nothing so long as you're unwilling to back up your irritation with anything more than generic statements about the poor quality of the forums. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:07 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 07:03
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Arkane posted:Repeating the same made up thing that the other dude said with different words does not codify it into a fact. Ok, let it be known for the record that forums poster Arkane does not agree with said statements about the general anger of white americans regarding the uppityness of black americans, and he is unwilling to elaborate at the present time. We can move forward with the thread with this knowledge close to heart.
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Jun 16, 2014 07:09
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Arkane posted:I don't think the team thing quite works here, because with an approval rating in the low 40s, there's a lot more liberal dislike of Obama than this thread lets on, and it's definitely not driven by racism. The first black President is also a greatly disliked President, and there are a lot of reasons for that. "A lot more liberal dislike of Obama than this thread lets on" oh cool keep invoking groupthink for why your opinions are unpopular. It's surely not because of your personal inability/unwillingness to substantiate your bad ideas! There are many reasons to disapprove of Obama's presidency. A large portion of why the right dislikes Obama is because he is black, because politically right people in the USA tend to distrust and dislike blah people. This is not a controversial statement, sorry if it triggers your latent white problems or whatever. It's possible that Arkane lives in a state of childlike naivete where he has not personally encountered any of these people. As someone who has regular contact with blue collar white middle Americans, it's pretty much a given that they really hate him for reasons they can't quite articulate but he's a Bad President and also they don't trust black people in general. If you do happen to live in that blessed social bubble untroubled by contemporary racial politics I'd hate to sully you but yeah dude simply registering your outrage in a public forum isn't going to be compelling, congrats on pissing into the wind or whatever it is you feel like you're accomplishing here. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 07:32
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Arkane posted:I agree to an extent, but I speculatively think a sizable percentage of those would be equally vitriolic about a white candidate of uncertain birth status. Like all the times we heard about John McCain's Panamanian birth in 2008? Arkane posted:And what if the shoe were on the other foot? Colin Powell born in Hawaii, for instance, to a non-American father. Would there have been a birther movement for the Democrats? Probably nowhere as big, but it's within reason that it would exist. I guess it's possible it could have happened, even though it didn't. The fact that it was a thing that was possible does not escape me despite the fact that such a thing never happened. Arkane posted:I think there is a tendency to view things in a polarizing fashion. The two parties hate each other. A lot of disgust for Politician A is based on that decades-long hatred, and not because of the color of the politician's skin. That can't be said for everyone, racism still exists (poo poo there was a minority of Dem voters in 2008 who voted for Hillary based on race, per polling) but dressing up ALL or MOST disgust for Politician A because of race is baseless. Sure, maybe they hate him because he's a democrat. One would have to be consciously or unconsciously unaware of the existence of dogwhistle racism, or basic symbolic imagery, or the last hundred years of American racial politics, and I'd like to give you that much credit as a person who can write typo-free English on command. Arkane posted:Is there someone from Guinness watching this thread that I'm unaware of? How many times are you going to repeat the same bullshit line over and over? As many times as it takes for you to understand it, I guess. Repetition is a basic building block of learning after all. Nobody ever learned the alphabet on the first try. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jun 16, 2014 |
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Jun 16, 2014 07:38
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Really though Arkane I'm kind of jealous that I can't live in your world where racism doesn't exist and isn't a thing that way too many people are open and vocal about. Would you care to swap places with me? I can trade you at least three Obamaphones.
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Jun 16, 2014 07:45
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Slaves both today and yesterday ate food and drank water. It has nothing to do with race.
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Jun 16, 2014 22:44
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Powercrazy posted:I'll take "boring people trying to bring meaning into their worthless life via internet activism" for 200, Alex. Writing an article other people may stumble across is better than posting on a dead forum IMO
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Jun 18, 2014 05:50
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katlington posted:I thought it was a really good article. It was articulate and written in a kind and patient manner. I don't understand the strength of peoples negative reactions. people have problems with the article based on latent resentment on feeling guilty for being white. they either think it is unfair to feel this way or they subconciously agree but feel like they can't say that without being a traitor of some kind. it's also very popular to be against social messaging right now because you can strawman the poo poo out of SJWs or whatever to feel more enlightened or cutting edge
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Jun 18, 2014 16:21
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Genocide Tendency posted:Or I was just being an rear end in a top hat to a pretentious bag of cocks. lmao you are so uptight about someone else's argument about theoretical other person's arguments and you're getting mad about people saying words about how other people say words you dont even realize you don't have a point haha Impatient Skype JO posted:"I don't hate black people, I hate niggers!" queue the parade of reverse guilty white people itt let's all get in a pickup truck and throw candy to our fellow townsfolk beep beep
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Jun 18, 2014 16:25
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Impatient Skype JO posted:lol, I'm not white so you might have to rewrite your fruity little insult there, pal i'm not white either, in fact i'm not even human. i'm a sentient posting cat. don't be speciesist, buddy Impatient Skype JO posted:But what does that mean for people who don't get to be proud of their fancy countries of origin, like black people? Lots of African Americans wouldn't be able to tell you where their families come from, so settle for being proud of being simply black instead; does that make them racist? there's really no reason to be proud to be white, because white people as an aggregate haven't done much except exist in opposition to black people. white people are colorless when they want to be it's like being proud to be straight. whoopee i am so proud that my sexuality is celebrated and widely recognized and barely impacts my life except when negative emotions flit across my brain because i'm having a guilty reaction to someone else's oppression! on the left posted:Minorities only obtain their identities from their relationship with and perception by white people, got it. Does this also mean that white people get to claim credit for black american culture? technically, yeah, in that white people being massively lovely to black people created most aspects of black american culture. this isn't too difficult to understand so long as you're not engaged in limp dicked concern trolling the point you seemingly missed is that white people can choose to be white or not when it is convenient. it's default and unremarkable as an artificial racial category. there's really nothing to be proud of, unless someone has some ~mysterious~ reason to celebrate being born in the dominant and easiest demographic boner confessor fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 16:44
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white people can be proud of being appalachian, or growing up poor, or being an auto mechanic, or having some degree of irish heritage, or being the best fart sniffer in the land, or whatever. but being proud of one's whiteness is like being proud of being someone who drinks water. congratulations
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Jun 18, 2014 16:49
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Impatient Skype JO posted:Like yeah, race is a silly thing to be proud of, but if everyone was proud instead of insecure, poo poo would be a lot different. why do you think "White Pride" is a racist slogan?
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Jun 18, 2014 17:05
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Impatient Skype JO posted:Because it's a way to redirect you from their insecurity. Like, go to stormfront or wherever racists dare; count how many times you see them mention how they don't want interracial breeding, don't want to admit non-white achievements, how scared they are of black men beating them up and taking their wives. It's pretty funny. so if that's not authentic White Pride, what is?
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Jun 18, 2014 17:13
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Impatient Skype JO posted:Being able to drink all the mayonnaise you like without worrying what anyone will say. it seems to me that the only time people invoke white pride is when they're trying to justify why they shouldn't face consequences for saying opinions like that article that said "Hey as a white person you don't automatically have a stake in a conversaion about race between nonwhite participants" that got immediately jumped on as tantamount to censorship, racial thought policing, and racial guilt
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Jun 18, 2014 17:22
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wateroverfire posted:Like the author of that earlier article you're conflating different kinds of conversations. People about their experiences of their race or gender and their issues surrounding those things is one kind of conversation. People making negative generalizations about another race or gender is another kind of conversation. The two are not the same and they don't generate the same responses, so we shouldn't lump all of that together. It's the latter that gets people jumping in with #notallwhatever because they feel offended or attacked. It's really not an unreasonable response unless you're butting into someone's explicitly private conversation to do it. it's really weird that you're sticking to this argument because it's dependent on not properly reading or understanding the article in question like the article is about conversations where theoretical nonwhite people criticize theoretical white people for theoretical reasons, and you're over here saying "but if this conversation was being racist towards white people then I have a right to criticize that! you just want me to shut up when people are being racist against whites!" even though that's an entirely fabricated response based on no textual evidence but seemingly rather on some unknowable emotional reaction internal to you in this sense you are being the person the article is criticizing so your own reaction to the piece is easily interpreted as stuttering petulance fyi boner confessor fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 17:31
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Impatient Skype JO posted:I never really follow the whole social justice blog scene, but all I know is that I really hate that wannabe-snarky, condescending tone they all seem to be written in. I bet that this article was written that same way, and probably with the words "ally" (written in quotes) or "cookie" somewhere in it. You can't really expect people to just be easy when you're talking down to them. tone arguments  even though i don't read these things often, i feel like they're talking down to me which is why i dont like them and won't read them Impatient Skype JO posted:Anyway, let me quit rambling: I don't know the article, can you link me, please? its on the previous page of this thread
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Jun 18, 2014 17:38
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wateroverfire posted:Also, the article is about people butting into the author's facebook conversations or what have you when they stray toward negative generalizations of white people, and how they should check their privilege and shouldn't criticize and blah blah. Basically people disagree with inflammatory things she says in public and she wishes they wouldn't do that. JUSTICE! i'm assuming at this point that most tumblr-hate comes from people with language disorders and reading disabilities because that is pretty obviously not what the article is about
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Jun 18, 2014 17:50
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Powercrazy posted:It only took 8 pages but this is the real reason. Thanks guys once again D&D delivers. 9th post itt zeroprime posted:Why would anyone in power bother re-instituting slavery when the near indentured servitude of the working poor is so convenient? It has the added benefit of not being limited to a single race and lacks the moral resistance that codified ownership of human beings causes. reading is power
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Jun 18, 2014 18:51
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don't really need to read a thread though if your intent is to feel superior to a subforum. reading is only something people do when they want to engage with a topic and not just post whatever for example, monster trucks: good or bad? really by now we should have figured this out
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Jun 18, 2014 18:52
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It's pretty obvious that White people in the North were fighting for the freedom of black people against their own will. white people in the north were fighting because the south broke away and attacked the north and also later because they were drafted into the army there couldn't have been that many union volunteers who went off to fight specifically against slavery WorldsStrongestNerd posted:We didnt want slavery anymore so we got rid of it. uh not even close we got rid of slavery because it was the consequence of a huge war. slavery simmered on for so long and so many whites were decidedly in favor of slavery that a war started, one of the punitive measures placed on the defeated rebels was to undercut the system that gave their leaders money and power the northern aboltionist movement's best allies were southern planters irl, if they hadn't decided to secede who knows how much longer slavery would have lingered on. conversely if the rebels had given up in 1862 who knows how long it would have taken to get the 13th amendment boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 21:21
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Whites could do it, and yet they haven't. What does that say about their motivation? white people aren't just stupid and mean they are also very lazy
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Jun 18, 2014 21:26
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white people deserve to be applauded for creating a discriminatory system and eventually deciding to share power when enough black people complained about it thank you, whites
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Jun 18, 2014 21:38
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also the CRA wasn't an amendment so it didn't need to be ratified so i don't see how you can say "the majority of whites" when popular opinion didn't really matter, it was a purely legislative act, there was never a popular vote
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Jun 18, 2014 21:43
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WorldsStrongestNerd posted:Like most of you are so appalled at the idea of black america not having a lot of agency and the neccessity of getting support from a large part of white america to achive thier goals, but how could it have been any other way? If blacks had any power in the society they would not of been slaves or second class citizens to begin with. Of course they had to work and convince part of white society to help. you're saying white people deserve more credit for the civil rights movement than black people. that's just dumb. nobody's appalled at you being dumb and wrong about history, dude. you're just wrong. this is my emotionally neutral writing tone -> you are wrong, and don't understand history "blacks had no power, they should be grateful to whites for not beating them so often imo" this is you, sounding dumb boner confessor fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 21:47
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really they should be grateful that WHITES took them out of africa, into the united states. need some reparations for that, 500 years overdue ocean cruise fares
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Jun 18, 2014 21:53
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