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Everblight posted:Traffic control and enforcement is one of the few legitimate usages of police power, to make everyone safer. Take your lumps and pay your ticket and maybe don't speed so much next time. It's actually not.
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Jul 16, 2014 22:41
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We've been over this a million times but: Police unions are nothing like ordinary unions in literally any other sector or industry you can imagine. The very idea of police organizing is completely loving farcical and nothing more than a formalization of the same corruption and blue wall of silence horseshit that no sane person is in a position to defend. Their workplace problems are largely self-inflicted and in any case stem from the same sort of indoctrination and hazing the one would expect to see from a group of people who refer to themselves as a "fraternity", and besides which they produce nothing which resembles a commodity or which contains any sense of "value", the fruits of which they are therefore not at any risk of being unfairly parted with. No one is shipping policework overseas, no one is putting a dollar value on "law & order" units per hour, and the only body which has any influence at all over their lives and livelihoods is the same government body they are sworn to obey and defend without question. Most significantly, if tomorrow the police were to go on strike, it would be other police beating them with batons and firing tear gas into the crowds. It's not possible for anything resembling a functional, legitimate union to exist in these circumstances, and it therefore makes perfect sense that police "unions" are in practice just code for "old boys club", because that's what they actually are. It's perfectly consistent to support unions generally but to oppose the very existence of the FOP on principle. Not only that, but it makes perfect sense to any non-moron that a group of armed enforcers taking from orders the state need no further bargaining power beyond just merely being the body between rich senators and their expensive poo poo, and that it is dangerous and perverse to assume otherwise.
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Jul 31, 2014 03:59
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KernelSlanders posted:I know this is behind the thread a little, but this one of the stupider argument's I've heard in a while. The idea that we can't have laws governing minor infractions (like not grilling on the sidewalk at 2 in the morning) because police are incapable of treating minor issues as minor while still enforcing them is beyond stupid. Plenty of police give speeding tickets every day without choking anyone out. It's not stupid and crimes of vice and public order are precisely the means by which the police were first used to insinuate themselves in the everyday life of the public in the first place. Prostitution and drugs are obvious examples but how many videos in this thread begin with a traffic stop?
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Jul 31, 2014 05:28
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Rah! posted:I never knew about the "make poo poo up on a regular basis" part, but it doesn't surprise me if she was doing that. There was more to it though. The lab tech in question had been stealing cocaine from the crime lab for years, and due to her fuckery of the evidence, over 700 drug cases had to be dropped. Lab techs outright lying about the tests is a fairly common thing. The most recent case in Boston is particularly chilling since the chemist involved not only lied about actually being a chemist but had been potentially responsible for more than ten thousand wrongful convictions from faking test results (she got sentenced to like five iirc). There have been plenty of others, of course. Reminder for August 1st, 2014 that the entire criminal justice system is rotten garbage all the way down.
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Aug 2, 2014 04:52
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But the fact that the police were willing to compromise and go along with this horseshit is exactly the systemic issue?
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Aug 2, 2014 10:57
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Like whoa maybe it says something significant that the police expended virtually no energy resisting this disgusting ploy for the benefit of the people they're sworn to protect and serve.
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Aug 2, 2014 10:59
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Obdicut posted:It's definitely part of the systemic issue, but no, it's not the systemic issue, because, like has been pointed out, there was a shitload of politics involved in homicide stats in San Francisco. The same thing I said the last time I got probated from these threads and it's the conclusion that incidentally I'm glad to see people are finally reaching on their own: the whole notion of "good cops" and "bad cops" is an idiotic red herring when the police are screened and trained to follow orders above all else regardless. The SFPD story is the same poo poo you see when teary eyed riot cops fire the tear gas anyway: "I promise I'm a good person at home and I love my kids yadda yadda, I apologize in advance for carrying out this act of brutality. What? No I'm not going refuse to do it. Sorry again this is completely out of my hands". Your notion that this can't be explained by the fundamental character of the police is exactly backwards: it can and is directly explained by the sort of person who becomes a cop, namely, a person for whom moral hazard is not a significant obstacle to doing what they are told.
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Aug 2, 2014 11:23
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evilweasel posted:nobody cares about your dumb unrelated pet cause about how annoyed you are at people's assumptions about holders of college degrees why are you still a mod
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Dec 5, 2014 03:11
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Cole posted:If we are allowed to judge all cops based on what is relatively a few bad apples (which a lot of posts do), why can't we do that for every group of people? A FEW BAD APPLES
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Dec 14, 2014 17:27
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Cole posted:If its ok to base your opinion of everyone in a group based on a few people's actions, then you shouldn't be shocked or offended when people do it for other groups. lmao this is the most disingenuous horseshit ever posted in the sea of disingenuous horseshit that is D&D. Bro maybe, just maybe, a person's chosen profession has a lot more predictive power than whatever protected class you're trying to equivocate with. Like whoa judging people based on the job they do isn't actually even in the same loving ballpark as judging them based on the color of their skin or whatever.
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Dec 14, 2014 18:17
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Cole posted:BRO BRO GET THIS LMAO HOLY poo poo I gave two other examples that are profession based the first time this was brought up but HOLY poo poo DONT PAY ATTENTION YOU GET THAT BURN IN BRO LMFAO You posted this: Cole posted:Why is this any different? in response to this: Bel Shazar posted:You totally can. It's just in some cases you'll be flagged as a bigoted rear end in a top hat and in others you won't. Can you maybe not pretend like the equivalency you're tap dancing around has anything to do with professions?
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Dec 14, 2014 18:27
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Cole posted:That doesn't make them bad people. Is a wife who gets beat by her husband over and over but never does anything about it a bad person? 
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Dec 14, 2014 19:33
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Sure he raped an underage prostitute but why isn't THE MEDIA reporting on that time he bought groceries for a white family? Tell me that, lieberals. 
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Dec 14, 2014 20:55
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Also this whole thing is completely stupid and backwards because THE MEDIA routinely downplay police brutality and corruption, particularly the kind that depends on the police for continued reporting (local papers, etc.) and the reason for this is wait for it cops are such corrupt insecure whiny loving babies that they'll blackball anyone who points out their insanely lovely behavior and this includes reporters and prosecutors and even city mayors have been known to be thrown under the bus from time to time.
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Dec 14, 2014 21:00
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Reminder that "cop buys groceries for someone" is a time honored staple of the slow news day. The notion that there's some media bias against cops is just the typical reactionary persecution complex at work. The most thorough investigative reporting gets when it comes to the police is digging up dirt on their latest victim.
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Dec 15, 2014 00:11
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I already know the answer to this but could they really not find someone who doesn't look so obviously piggy to be their provocateur?
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Dec 15, 2014 06:30
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Radish posted:I mean I thought the whole charade was that *wink, wink* we can't know for sure he was purposely sinking his own case so LEGALLY nothing bad happened. If you are putting up witnesses that you admit are both not credible and also hurt your case I don't know how you can have that sort of plausible deniability anymore. I understand a lot of people here are lawyers, but how are non legal people supposed to have any respect for the process when it is so obviously broken in this regard and there is no reasonably way to fix it? If it makes you feel any better half the law goons in D&D are fraudulent libertarian posers from TFR and other assorted hacks whose might-makes-right legalism is about 9 parts coping mechanism and 1 part 18th century political theory.
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Dec 20, 2014 00:02
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Hrm but who beats the poo poo out of police unions when they make reasonable demands of their employer????
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Jan 6, 2015 00:08
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Modern police actually do tend to treat other unions with kid gloves come protest time, although probably only because their fists are tired from brutalizing and terrorizing other species of activist.
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Jan 6, 2015 20:08
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Agnosticnixie posted:Funny you'd say that. No pretty much everywhere has photos of various enemies of the political right as well as general public antagonists to use as target pratice.
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Jan 16, 2015 04:57
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Shbobdb posted:So, I've asked this before and people have given the always fantastic ultra-rightwing response of "Go back to France" but, I'll ask again. What purpose do cops serve? Why should I tolerate their existence? Constabulatory police were developed with the purpose of torturing prostitutes and other un-chaste women. This role has since been expanded to include everyone who wasn't born rich.
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Jan 29, 2015 11:00
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Genocide Tendency posted:Ah yes. All the "reformers" who've shown up to the CotB thread over the years have been rank apologists who refuse to move forward with any discussion of solutions until they can be certain that every single post on every page is punctuated with "of course these are only a few bad apples mind you so please show proper deference to our boys in blue out there every day protecting the L A W A B I D I N G C I T I Z E N from criminal scum." It's almost like reformist talk is actually a rhetorical tactic meant to stall the thread until everyone is forced to agree to disagree with the end goal of arriving at no conclusions at all!
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Jan 30, 2015 00:55
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Josef bugman posted:Jesus tit loving christ that is some heinous poo poo. The psych eval is to screen people who won't do heinous poo poo.
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Jan 30, 2015 01:30
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Sorry I should have mentioned that every once in a while you get a good cop and he's a little misty eyed when his buddies are tear gassing teenagers at a demonstration and you kind of go "aww" but also you're hacking and coughing and he's carrying a big shield so it's tough to go over and pat him on the back. Edit: Josef bugman posted:I would like to disagree as most of the police officers I have met (and the families with police officers in them) have been nice enough people, but it just seems as if the usual problems associated with too much power and the average persons lackadaisical attitude towards people complaining at work just gets magnified here. I mean if anyone has worked in retail they know that you start thinking of customers as too stupid to be able to tie their shoe laces, but you have to realise that you are helping out, I get the feeling a lot of police officers do not do that at all. The problem is what nice enough people do when they're ordered to do something heinous or when they're watching their friends do something heinous and what story they're willing to tell afterwards. Oh and also whether the cops they work with involuntarily commit them to a mental ward if they grow a pair and blow the whistle. Woozy fucked around with this message at 01:41 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 01:35
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bitcoin bastard posted:What's the alternative? A gigantic circle jerk about how cops are really really mean and bad? The circle jerk you are talking about has produced over five years of extremely detailed threads chronicling police brutality on a massive scale. Literally thousands of pages with stories that are personal, local, and even national headlines. And yet somehow we still manage to attract a new crop of morons going "come on guys tone it down a bit!" in every incarnation.
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Jan 30, 2015 02:05
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Faffel posted:Are you saying there's no place for an organized police group who's specifically trained in dealing with large, uncontrollable group situations? Isn't one of the main complaints in this thread that the police don't have good/proper/sufficient/humane training and that helps leave their decision making open to nebulous and unreliable judgement? Hmm should federally funded counter insurgency program "the police" have trained dissent suppression squads I just don't know
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Feb 1, 2015 08:28
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Jarmak posted:Yeah man, thinking that anytime anyone disagrees with the law they can't just break it is totally the same as thinking there's never any time breaking the law is justified. Pictured: 40 cops in hoods Edit: Reminder that the Klan was never larger or more popular in the US than when they made stricter enforcement of prohibition part of their agenda. It's actually super adorable that you think this photo is a symbol of anarchist disregard for law to anyone but your own deranged self. Woozy fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Feb 3, 2015 |
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Feb 3, 2015 10:36
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Jarmak posted:The Klan did not operate within law, they were an instrument if those who felt morally justified in breaking the law in order to protect the status quo. This is precisely important because people in this thread are saying the cops should effectively break the law if they feel it's justified and let protesters block the highway, and this is horribly naive if we look at the history of what happens when we give cops the leeway to just break laws they don't agree with.  "Disingenuous" is cynically invoking the KKK of all loving things to defend your hollow legalism. Vigilantism, for one thing, is a very specific kind of rule breaking--it's the kind that occurs when someone feels a need for more, and not less, of law and order. It's not, "these rules are wrong, I cannot abide the lapse in morality required to follow them", but rather (and obviously) "if the institutions themselves won't enforce the traditional social order with an iron fist, we'll do it ourselves". The Klan is the quintessential example of right-wing terrorists who not only are treated with kid gloves by reactionary institutions like the police, but actively draw their membership and resources from powerful elites who are well connected to governing bodies and power structures. It's not a good example of what happens when people pick and choose which laws they want to obey, not least of all because their extra-legal activities are emphatically not the result of a personal sense of moral duty, but rather conducted in the service of existing social codes which behave like laws in every way except worse because they're unwritten and so demand more rigorous and theatrical methods of enforcement than the ordinary grinding of a political machine.
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Feb 3, 2015 22:51
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Trabisnikof posted:So now the arguement is that parents shouldn't report when their kids commit petty crime because good parents don't snitch on their kids? Hrmm gee should I frame my child, sabotage his future, and deliver him into one the most dysfunctional and abusive justice systems in the first world so he'll keep playing that sport I like I just don't know. Being a parent is just so damned hard! OH also I'm a loving idiot and my kid shot himself but the cop buddies who put me up to it think those two things probably aren't related.
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Feb 10, 2015 23:18
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Trabisnikof posted:Thats why GiP is a lovely forum, correct. So lovely that they use it as a staging ground for invading better threads in better subs! I guess it's not as much fun being an obnoxious dipshit if you don't have any place to run back to for high fives and attaboys. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 12, 2015 22:56
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Equine Don posted:I invite all sworn law enforcement officers to Debate and Discussion for the grand reopening of the Ferguson thread! Edit: Untagged posted:I'm really enjoying my posting experience in your thread so far. Any chance to make D&D collectively have their panties wad because a viewpoint they don't agree with exists in that forum makes me giggle. Woozy fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Feb 13, 2015 |
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Feb 13, 2015 02:56
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Cool if I'm ever a divorced alcoholic with ptsd I'll drop by and say hello
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Feb 13, 2015 03:03
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Powercrazy posted:I don't think a limb shot requirement will prevent mag dumps, nor the darker than a paper bag issue either. Ah yes I forgot that training doesn't have an non-exculpatory effect on police.
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Feb 13, 2015 20:28
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Zeitgueist posted:Well to be fair, the reason for the frequent shootings of unarmed brown people is probably not specific to firearms training. Probably not, you're right. The people behind them, on the other hand...
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Feb 13, 2015 20:36
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