Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

Sergg posted:

Much as I am loathe to condone the murder of teenagers, this is an inescapable consequence of the social injustice of Apartheid when you try to de-facto annex another nation-state's territory and marginalize its citizens through the slow process of settler encroachment.

Could you go into a bit more detail about how murdering teenagers is inescapable? It seems kind of escapable, to me. Like, the people who killed the teenagers could instead have not killed the teenagers, for example. Maybe you know more about it than I do.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2014 03:01

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# ¿ May 20, 2024 15:19

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

Just so we're clear, the guy replying to "Every Israeli lives like Hermann Goering" is being accused of exaggerating his case?

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 22:24

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

Dolash posted:

That's possibly what shocks me most about people's blindness to the suffering of the Palestinians - all these people killed, all these homes destroyed, all this misery, do people honestly expect the Palestinians to blame the resistance organization for bringing the oppressor down on their heads? If someone blows up your house and kills your children and says they did it because someone from your neighbourhood was fighting them, would you be angry at the one who fought back or the one who blew up your house?

Hamas itself probably doesn't run on religious fanaticism or animal bloodlust like people claim, at this point its base of support probably comes from grief and a desire to die fighting.

This is the depressing part of that pithy quote about "if israel was disarmed they'd be destroyed" - at this stage, barring a long and very, very careful reconciliation process, it's probably true. :smith:

# ¿ Jul 31, 2014 23:39

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

The Insect Court posted:

Let me simplify.

Should Hamas reject a longer term ceasefire if Israel doesn't meet their previously released list of demands? Yes or no?

Yes - you don't negotiate with terrorists, and backing down every time Israel starts murdering innocent civilians would just validate the israeli response.
e; assuming complete unwillingness to negotiate on I's part. negotiations are compromise etc etc

# ¿ Aug 5, 2014 05:06

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

e: actually forget about it. I dont think you'll change your mind and to be honest this is too depressing to argue about.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2014 07:53

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

Arkane posted:

True, but it also seems like there might be a really simple way to prevent the bombs/shells from being dropped.

i swear to god the graphs of rocket attacks in the time leading up to the invasions should actually be at the top of every page.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2014 04:18

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

The Insect Court posted:

This is weird. Are the mods part of the vast Zionist conspiracy too, Neurolimal? All of them, or just a few in particular?

Maybe the problem is that you're unwilling to sympathize in any way with Israelis, so let's try a thought experiment: Think of Palestinians cheering the firing of rockets into Israel, or the news of the killing of Israelis in terrorist attacks. Assume they're eating popcorn as they do, if that's a factor that matters to you. Do you think it's fine for someone to express a wish to see their heads blown open?

Not very productive since I don't speak Hebrew and it would be probatable anyway.

Oh, I see. When you said only the presence of your grandmother "stayed my hand", you meant you were going to communicate with them through sign language, or maybe hand puppets. Silly me, I assumed you were talking about hitting them. But please, educate me as to the "something vile" you were about to do to them using your hands?

You're a really, really good troll, btw. This is absolutely masterful.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 08:46

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

CharlestheHammer posted:

To be fair if the conflict has shown anything, its that Israel's feelings are kind of illegitimate and gives in to the pragmatic need for land way before feelings get involved.

As a complete outsider to israeli politics etc I think that it's maybe worth making a distinction between the actions of the government and the general feelings of the people. As I understand it the majority of Israelis lived in a time when suicide bombers were a thing and the rocket attacks weren't just spitballs, you know? The fear is no longer valid but the memory of the fear still seems to be guiding the public opinion. The government just seems to be exploiting that for votes/land/aid money.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 23:07

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Israeli "retaliations" have always been disproportionate and targeted civilians callously.

It's true that the Israeli public had lived through some unpleasant and scary times in the past but these feelings which you've alluded to are actually born out of Israel's victim complex and the dogma that every act of violence perpetrated against a Jew by a non-Jew is a manifestation of latent anti-Semitism. Yes, suicide bombings were a terrible thing but if you view them in a wider historical context you'd see that they were in no way the 'beginning' of the hostilities and that Israel has done some lovely things to Palestinians over the years which might have contributed to the escalation of violence over the years; this worldview is in many ways considered heretical (or even treasonous) in Israel, you're automatically labeled a self-hating Jew and you're reminded that gentiles have never needed a cause to hate jews and that it's absurd to try to justify their clearly anti-Semitic actions by pointing to the existence of a vicious cycle that has been fueled by Israeli aggression for decades.

The feelings of Israelis are illegitimate cause they represent a historical narrative that is greatly removed from reality and prevents any possibility of normalization and deescalation.

I agree with everything you've said and bow to your superior experience in this - but I was responding to people saying that the feelings of the Israelis don't matter/they're just out for the land/they're inhuman monsters. I see it's as a very very similar situation to south africa in the 80s; many Israelis seem to have valid fear for their safety because they've worked hard to make people want to kill them, and as part of that they've dehumanized the people they're oppressing.
I don't think the legitimacy of the feelings matters, because (legitimate or not) those feelings have to be addressed for a peaceful resolution. Like, addressing the feelings can/should be done by convincing people of their illegitimacy.

(also for people arguing genocide/ethnic cleansing, imo the "best" term is apartheid. a) it's completely accurate b) you don't have to get into the "but but they're not trying to kill ALL the palestinians" c) you can quote Desmond tutu etc calling it that)

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 23:36

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

Kajeesus posted:

While Gaza can be argued to "only" be an atrocious violation of human rights, the West Bank settlements are literal ethnic cleansings and I haven't seen any Israeli sources trying to deny it.

Absolutely, and so were the bantustans. The situation parallels south africa in so many ways it's frightning. Thinking about this a bit, maybe I prefer describing it as apartheid because apartheid had a resolution - it's a situation with a way out. I dono.

# ¿ Aug 8, 2014 00:41

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

The Insect Court posted:

Back when the 72-hour ceasefire went into effect I asked if any of the "pro-Palestinian" posters wanted to take a position in favor of the ceasefire. None did, the only posters who offered a coherent response were the ones who inveighed against a ceasefire and urged further "resistance" against Israel despite the clear consequences.

Anyone want to criticize Hamas for not agreeing to an extension of the ceasefire? Or even merely endorse a re-implementation of it on the same terms? I'm not going to hold my breath.

Hm, I was one of those posters and I clearly remember specifying that they shouldn't take a ceasefire without concessions (eg lifting the blockade).
It's weird, it sort of feels like you're misrepresenting the argument!

# ¿ Aug 9, 2014 01:22

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

FRINGE posted:

TIC is a functioning racial supremacist who hides by calling everyone else racist. He will immediately decry this because "he never even said he was a certain race" and then continue to do the same thing. Every faux-reasonable hasbara call for peace he makes involves the Palestinians committing suicide.

No, he's a troll.

# ¿ Aug 10, 2014 00:20

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# ¿ May 20, 2024 15:19

awesmoe: Nov 30, 2005; Pillbug

Real hurthling! posted:

Explain why they are better in a way that doesn't sound like french fart sniffing

No, don't, go to the chat thread.

# ¿ Aug 11, 2014 22:07

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