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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I've had friends die in plane crashes, and I've had friends die in car accidents. It wouldn't make me consider not driving/flying anymore (I'm not current right now, but that's for entirely different reasons). It's pretty jarring, obviously, but I don't think it should keep you from pursuing something you really want to do. Perhaps your instructor is not the best person to help you get through it, and you should talk to an actual therapist about it.

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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

xaarman posted:

You don't need a drat therapist, flying has a risk associated with it and we all know it. Just like riding a motorcycle, as long as the benefits outweigh the negatives, keep flying.

Watching Goose die didn't keep Maverick from flying did it????

He knows that rationally, but if there's a mental block that's keeping him from continuing with something he really enjoys, then maybe it's a good idea to talk to someone who has experience getting people to quit thinking irrationally. I'm not saying he needs to see a therapist twice a week for the rest of his life. It's possible that all that's needed is time, too.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Tide posted:

Probably need to rephrase it to "how many hours did you log before taking wife/kid/significant other up?"

I think I was probably around 60 hours the first time I took my Dad flying with me. Mind you, he came with me on my discovery flight too, if that counts :v:

Or do you mean "hours logged after getting your license"? In that case, probably 1-2. He was keen to come with me.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

e.pilot posted:

Passed my IFR written with an 87% and wrapped up my long XC tonight. Almost there.

http://maplorer.com/permalink.php?file=2014-11-01_07_32_46_f_Track_2014-10-31-225357.gpx

Congratulations. Out of curiosity, how much harder did you find the IFR test than the PPL written test? I ended up shifting gears and not doing aviation as a career, but even after four years of university in an unrelated field, I'd say the PPL written exam was in the top three most stressful/difficult exams I ever wrote.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Are there any Canadian ATPs in the thread? I never got far enough to worry about the specifics, but the ATP process in the States seems much more frightening than in Canada, judging by how people talk about it. At the PPL level, the only level which I really looked at the differences, I'd say the Canadian training/licensing procedure is more onerous, but does this change at the ATPL level?

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

e.pilot posted:

Fatigue generally doesn't carry the risk of killing a couple hundred people in the normal civilian world either.

"What do you mean you're too fatigued to fly? Pussy! Fly anyway!"

* accident occurs *

"Obviously the pilot didn't have enough experience. Pilots should all have a million billion hours before flying with any passengers!"

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

SomeDrunkenMick posted:

So I'm asking for a friend here not me, thank gently caress. He has a significant amount of hours training done and is well over halfway through his atpls. But he's young and dumb and got caught driving drunk, he's months away from a court date but I'd imagine he's going to get a conviction out of this.
My question is how hosed is he regarding an airline career? I'm not going to defend the drink driving but he's a good kid.

I can only speak for what I've heard in Canada, but: pretty hosed. Say goodbye to international flights even if someone's willing to ignore it and hire him, because a DUI conviction will make you inadmissible to a lot of countries.

He should spend all of his money on a really, really good lawyer and do whatever it takes to plead down to a traffic violation rather than a criminal offence (it can be done, I know a guy who's been caught around 6 times and pretty much spends his way out of it every time, in both the US and Canada).

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Being a pilot is never a wise financial decision. The expense is something you put up with to have the best office in the world.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Don't modern airliners take into account the length of the runway they're using to calculate the necessary amount of thrust for takeoff, instead of going balls to the wall every single time? I heard that somewhere at some point, which could explain the longer-than-strictly-necessary takeoff runs.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I thought YYC was pretty high at 3500'... we certainly have noticeably longer takeoff runs, and our new runway is the longest in Canada, largely because of the altitude.

Taking off from Addis Ababa or La Paz or any place like that has got to be a rather interesting experience.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
People on CNN, Miles O'Brien excepted, are loving retarded. When discussing Harrison Ford's forced landing:

"An engine out in a single-engine plane... is this something you train for?"

Yes, probably more than any other abnormal situation... do some research, guys.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Unicom posted:

Interesting flight today heading back home, winds were 32G40 right before touchdown. Luckily straight down the runway, felt like I was stopped before landing. Got absolutely tossed around in the foothills too.

In/around Calgary, by any chance? gently caress me, it was windy yesterday.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

e.pilot posted:

Even PC sims are great for practicing IFR stuff assuming you have a yoke or stick.

I think X-Plane can actually be upgraded to the point where it's approved for training, if you want to buy a whole bunch of extra equipment and whatnot.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
On one hand, I hope wages go up and working conditions improve, but I also agree with them (and, I'm guessing, everyone else here) that it's pretty retarded to require 1500 hours before acting as a FO (and, it seems, this is not a requirement in Canada. Go my country!)

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

e.pilot posted:

I think maybe half (so 750) would be an acceptable compromise, because yeah 1500 for an FO, especially in tiny RJs, is kind of silly.

As is my understanding, Canada only requires an ATPL to fly as the captain of a multi-pilot aircraft, not an FO (that can be done with CPL + type rating), and we haven't seen a massive explosion in crashes caused by inexperienced FOs. Whether you will be a competitive applicant for an F/O job with a fresh CPL is another matter entirely, of course.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

DNova posted:

Well, they also actively fought against the plane's best efforts to keep them out of a stall, stalled, and nosedived into a house.

How is requiring more experience going to help that? Stall prevention and recovery is already something that every pilot has practiced prior to their first solo, and then been tested on (presumably) at every level thereafter. We're not talking about situations that require vast amounts of experience, judgement and airmanship, but things that any pilot should know regardless of hours.

Assuming that lack of experience is the problem, which I don't believe it is (it's probably more related to the horrendous working conditions a lot of junior pilots face more than anything else), wouldn't it make more sense to increase the hours required to become a captain, and decrease the number of hours required to be a first officer? That way, it's easier for newer pilots to get experience, and there's always someone with quite a lot of experience on board.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

DNova posted:

I was only saying that those two were a particular kind of special. I don't agree with the new regulations either.

Yeah, I wasn't really responding to you specifically when I wrote my post (although I agree that's what it looks like). Still, some (non-industry) people might say, "well, a more experienced pilot would've known to avoid a stall!" when it's basically the first emergency pilots are taught how to handle.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Maybe having locking, reinforced cockpit doors that can only be opened from the inside with no emergency backup in case no one on the flight deck can open the door is not the wonderful idea it seemed in the wake of 9/11.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Animal posted:

We are required to have two crewmembers in the cockpit at all times. So if one of the pilots goes to the lav, either a flight attendant or a jumpseater has to accompany the remaining pilot.

Either they dont share the same rule or these guys disregarded it

The fact is we just don't know. Maybe something incapacitated both people on the flight deck, either by accident or on purpose -- not outside the realm of possibility.

There are risks to not allowing the flight deck to be secured from the inside, clearly, but if there was a pilot outside the flight deck with no way back in, it might also be that there are risks to allowing the flight deck to be completed isolated from the inside out, regardless of other regulations or practices.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

DNova posted:

Don't you think that a 2nd crewmember to enter the cockpit would say hello or something?

I assume so. I don't think even the door-banging has been officially confirmed at this point, so we really don't have even half of the story at this point.

Still, even if there were a second crew member present in the cockpit, this still would not fix the situation of an actively suicidal pilot who overpowers the second crew member, or an incident in which both people on the flight deck are incapacitated by accident. I don't have any evidence to suggest that either of these things happened on this flight, nor do I suspect they happened on this flight. I'm only pointing out that there are situations where it would be a good idea to allow some way of accessing the flight deck from outside. Whether these outweigh the risks posed by allowing outside access is hard to say.

EDIT: Further, the possibility of someone ignoring regulations or simply making a mistake should be taken into account when designing these systems in general. Forgetting or "forgetting" to bring a second crew-member onto the flight deck probably shouldn't have the possibility to lead to an absolutely unrecoverable situation if something happens to the single person left on the flight deck.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
If you're hell bent on suicide, why take 149 innocent people with you, more like?

Off yourself if you really feel that's the thing to do, but gently caress you if you harm anyone else in the process.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Entone posted:

If suicide is the case, god knows the pilot would of never seen a doctor about it when it was preventable due to the medical licensing system.

This is another major, major problem: the current system actively discourages people from seeking help for any kind of mental conditions (or physical conditions, to some degree, but those are harder to lie about). And every time the regulations are made more stringent, the problem only becomes worse.

The Slaughter posted:

That's a huge conclusion to jump to, though. I don't think we know that at all based on what's known so far.

Yeah, I don't think we can say it's even likely at this point, although it's certainly a possibility (as are many other things).

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Also of note is that an official with Lufthansa said there was no requirement to have a second crew member on the flight deck, nor is it company policy to do so.

I foresee that changing with blinding loving speed (as well it probably should).

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

The Slaughter posted:

You're such a downer. Jeez, what happened to suicide quietly by yourself and in private?

If the co-pilot intentionally crashed this plane, it's not really fair to call it suicide. It was deliberate action to kill 149 people who had no say in the matter, if that were the case, so it bears no more similarity to a normal suicide than 9/11 does.

You have to be mentally ill to want to kill yourself, but you have to be a whole 'nother kind of hosed to consider taking innocent people who had nothing to do with your problems with you.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

hobbesmaster posted:

I suppose you could call it terrorism but its fundamentally a murder-suicide.

I didn't mean to imply it was terrorism by the comparison to 9/11 (this incident, if it was suicide, is not similar to that either, just as it's not similar to an ordinary suicide). I would say, though, that it's distinct from most murder-suicides because of the scope, and also that the typical murder-suicide perpetrator generally has a reason for picking their victims.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Well, Canada's officially on board with "2 people or more on the flight deck at all times" rule, as are a few European airlines (and possibly regulating authorities).

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Lol at Air Canada initially calling the incident a "hard landing." Yeah, maybe if you landed hard and skidded off the runway. If you touched down short of the runway and ran into poo poo as a result, you crashed. It was a minor crash compared to others, yes, but it's still more than a hard landing.

Their initial release had some great wording too. "We believe AC624 has had a 'runway excursion'."

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

overdesigned posted:

Since they slid on to the runway wouldn't it be a runway INcursion?
:goonsay:

I suppose so, but this was before it came out that the aircraft touched down short of the runway by a considerable margin.

"Hard landing" my rear end.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
It's really a moot point, is it not, considering that it's been reported that the pilot was yelling things like "for God's sake, open the door!"?

I think everyone on the plane had realized something was wrong at that point, frankly.

Not to mention: flight attendants may not be pilots, but they are trained professionals and they are very accustomed to the normal pattern of a flight. I would, personally, tend to think they would be quite aware of any significant deviation from normal procedure.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I think part of the problem here is that any real solution to this issue will necessarily produce an environment of distrust between crew members, and it seems like that could even be more dangerous than the problem that it's meant to solve.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Tony Montana posted:

But someone is in there with him, having to be physically prevented from opening the door. A long way beyond a nice, quiet suicide.

No, I agree with that. I'm saying the question of "would the F/A know something wasn't right" is moot, not that it would be pointless to have an F/A on the flight deck.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I have this image of the Secret Service trying to catch it with pool skimmers like on the Simpsons.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

CharlesM posted:

Somebody send Kai Tak videos to CNN please.

Toncontin, as well (which is still active if I'm not mistaken, unlike Kai Tak).

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

It's funny when tourists misbehave in places like Cuba, Mexico, Egypt, and other vacation destinations where you REALLY don't want to go to jail. Jesus, they must be stupid.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
So, I flew through Heathrow yesterday. Was I flying out at a particularly busy time, or is it just hosed up in general? I think I saw six planes lined up to take off (three in front of us, our plane, and then at least two more behind us). I don't think I've seen anything like that, even at major hubs in North America.

The terminal itself was pretty easy to get through, though; I don't know why everyone was warning me about it. It would have been quick and easy if the passengers in front of me were able to read the instructions and get through a security inspection in a reasonable fashion. How the gently caress have you reached international connections in London, while apparently having no clue how airport security works?

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

DNova posted:

Six planes is by no means a lot or noteworthy even at smaller class C airports at busier times.

Shows what I know! I've never seen more than a handful of planes line up, even at bigger hubs like FRA, IAH, DFW or YYZ. I think our time on the ground at Heathrow was roughly 1/4 of the flight time.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Air New Zealand's Hobbit-themed safety video is much better, because I didn't feel embarrassed for every single person involved in its production.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I remember going on a Young Eagles flight when I was 13 or 14. It makes me sick to my stomach to think that there are kids that age that would act with such utter disrespect, given a similar opportunity. I can't even begin to understand that.

The parents involved probably deserve a sound beating.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
40-50 hours of training over two weeks is, like, a whole gently caress of a lot, it seems to me. Am I wrong?

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PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
95% of my travel is for leisure and I still don't want to be packed in like a loving sardine and treated like I'm worthless. Just got back from a vacation, and I upgraded to premium economy one way, and business class on the way back. Worth it. Everywhere else is a better place to cut expenses, to be honest.

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