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BillBear posted:Not really. Can you actually explain what about that scene is actually narrative set-up for killing your daughter and only heir that you profess to care for in a later scene?
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Jun 7, 2015 19:53
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Midnight City posted:It thawing doesn't just make the destroyed food reappear, he said he has 6,000+ men, no deer hunting is going to solve that. Without the snow and blizzard, he can go attack Winterfell much more quickly. The previews show him raising his sword with his soldiers. Presumably he is attacking Winterfell. It would be a big character moment if, after this horrible sacrifice, he actually wins. So It Goes posted:Yes Stannis facing a consequence for burning his daughter is fine. Its the burning of the daughter that is terrible narrative and character writing and a lazy attempt at "shock" without proper set-up for it. But it has been properly set up, in both books and show. Most people on this thread suspected this was coming. The thing is, when the show had Stannis saying he loved Shireen, and Selyse being antagonistic to her, and Mance saying Stannis could be a good leader, that wasn't setting up Stannis being a cool, awesome dude. It was setting up his fall. It wouldn't be interesting if Stannis were an awful grinch who hated his family. Then there wouldn't be any development, any arc. And it wouldn't be believable if Stannis were a happy, awesome guy who loved his wife and daughter. He wouldn't kill her or do anything bad. Instead, what we have is a person who has good traits and could have maybe been a good person, but who is in too deep now. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 19:53
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Somebody made the good point that with only two seasons left, there are only two battles left. Assuming there's eventually a large "Vs the White Walkers" battle, we'll only be getting one of Winterfell/Meereen/Dany-in-Westeros-LOL
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Jun 7, 2015 19:53
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So It Goes posted:Can you actually explain what about that scene is actually narrative set-up for killing your daughter and only heir that you profess to care for in a later scene? I hosed up the time code, Mel says he will betray his family and everything he holds dear earlier in the scene and that it will all be worth it. She also said Shireen would play a huge role in the war to come to his wife.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:54
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So It Goes posted:Can you actually explain what about that scene is actually narrative set-up for killing your daughter and only heir that you profess to care for in a later scene? "You are going to betray your family [...] and in the end it will all be worth it because you are the son of fire" He betrays his family by burning Shireen while Selyse breaks down. Later, it turns out he is not the son of fire. This is what's called tragedy.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:54
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Ague Proof posted:Stannis burns Shireen to finally kill Balon. They're mixing and matching Theon's stuff with Sansa if her "let me die as myself" in the preview to Episode 10 is anything to go by.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:55
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Dolash posted:We don't know exactly how Stannis is going to lay siege to Winterfell, exact army logistics and guard rotations on the food tent is nitpicky and not the material complaint. It'll be ladders and rams if they really need to come to that. once again you don't know what you're talking about Roose, Theon and a bunch of others have said how breaching Winterfell is impossible, remember how Theon needed to create a distraction to send all the Winterfell guards away before he could breach it, and Roose himself had absolutely no worries about Stannis being laying siege right this season.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:55
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I don't know how Davos is going to still see Stannis as his king after hearing about him burning Shireen.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:56
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Genetic squares posted:I don't know how Davos is going to still see Stannis as his king after hearing about him burning Shireen. Davos should gently caress off and find Rickon and be his adviser.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:57
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He won't. There's zero chance either book Davos or show Davos would still work for Stannis after that.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:57
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El Hefe posted:once again you don't know what you're talking about Roose, Theon and a bunch of others have said how breaching Winterfell is impossible, remember how Theon needed to create a distraction to send all the Winterfell guards away before he could breach it, and Roose himself had absolutely no worries about Stannis being laying siege right this season. "Once again you don't know what you're talking about"? If there's other points you want to discuss, go ahead. Theon did the distraction because he had twenty men, not several thousand. Roose is indeed unconcerned about the siege, I suppose we'll see if he was right to be so nonchalant. Stannis is a good commander, and it's been a while since they've done establishing shots of the army so for all we know he'll have some siege equipment packed up in the rear. Regardless, I doubt it'll be impossible for Stannis to win, the hard part was just getting there through the blizzard.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:58
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Pedro De Heredia posted:
To be clear, I don't say "set-up" to mean it wasn't foreshadowed. I mean set-up in the sense that it narratively makes sense. And no, before it gets said again, willingness to burn a person you don't know like Gendry is not "set-up" to kill a daughter you profess to care about. At that point, we can expect Jaime to kill Mycella since he killed a cousin in an earlier season. Dolash posted:
This is what I mean. Establishing a good relationship with a daughter is not what I consider narratively satisfying "set-up" for killing that daughter. Its the opposite, because it makes the decision nonsensical and a random change of established character. Also, don't underestimate just how lame and unsatisfying it is for the "bind" that makes Stannis make the choice be derived from Ramsey's super powers.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:58
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So It Goes posted:Yes Stannis facing a consequence for burning his daughter is fine. Its the burning of the daughter that is terrible narrative and character writing and a lazy attempt at "shock" without proper set-up for it. "You will betray the men serving you, you will betray your family, you will betray everything you once held dear". Stannis being willing to do a lot 'for the greater good' was set up *a lot*. Honestly, that mad/sane coin everyone was talking about for Dany? It feels to me Stannis had a duty/feels coin. It came up "duty".
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Jun 7, 2015 19:58
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Midnight City posted:He won't. There's zero chance either book Davos or show Davos would still work for Stannis after that. I wouldn't rule anything out on the show, these writers are very bad after all.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:59
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All that set up for Olly stabbing Jon is really setting up for Davos to stab Stannis instead.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:01
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Pedro De Heredia posted:Without the snow and blizzard, he can go attack Winterfell much more quickly. If Stannis takes Winterfell, puts the Boltons to the torch, and unites the North...I'll be somewhat less disappointed. 
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Jun 7, 2015 20:01
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Midnight City posted:The Ramsay poo poo is even dumber because Stannis almost starved to death once and now he left all his food unprotected? You'd think that would be the first thing he ever thought about when marching an army. 'Ok guys, we've got 6000 men, where do we put the food?' 'We put it really, really far away from everybody so they have to jog to get it. It warms them up.' 'Cool! Where are we putting guards?' 'Why would you guard food? That's silly.' 'Why are there lots of jugs of oil and really flammable stuff near the food?' 'Just in case anyone wants to have a barbecue. It isn't like our food won't be attacked by a plot armor sociopath who has become like a cartoon character which will make our leader do some incredibly dumb, badly written poo poo.' 'You are brilliant, you know that?"
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Jun 7, 2015 20:03
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So It Goes posted:This is what I mean. Establishing a good relationship with a daughter is not what I consider narratively satisfying "set-up" for killing that daughter. Its the opposite, because it makes the decision nonsensical and a random change of established character. Also, don't underestimate just how lame and unsatisfying it is for the "bind" that makes Stannis make the choice be derived from Ramsey's super powers. It's not nonsensical. It makes perfect sense. People aren't static. And if they are, then certainly our understanding of them and what they are willing to do isn't. Otherwise, you couldn't have arcs and character development in stories. Characters, or at least our understanding of them, changes as we get to know them and as they get to live. The Stannis Baratheon that saved Shireen from greyscale is not the Stannis Baratheon that burns her. Years have passed. He's lived through becoming the rightful king, some military and political failures, and a newfound religion and fanaticism. It is the contrast between the Stannis who had some nice traits, who people would describe as a just man and a good leader and a good father, and the Stannis who has become consumed by his goal, that tragedy occurs. Otherwise, he's just an rear end in a top hat.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:03
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So It Goes posted:To be clear, I don't say "set-up" to mean it wasn't foreshadowed. I mean set-up in the sense that it narratively makes sense. And no, before it gets said again, willingness to burn a person you don't know like Gendry is not "set-up" to kill a daughter you profess to care about. At that point, we can expect Jaime to kill Mycella since he killed a cousin in an earlier season. Willingness to burn Gendry is absolutely relevant, since Stannis partly hesitated because he's his nephew and an innocent man, and Melisandre had to persuade him using tricks to convince him Gendry's blood was magical. Stannis was won over, but prevented from actually burning Gendry. Now he's in a desperate circumstance where burning King's Blood is presented as the only way forward. THAT is why it's setup. And I really can't parse why you think it goes against character to establish someone loves a person before they're forced to kill that person for the greater good, it's meant to show how committed they are to the bigger goal by forcing them to do something they don't want to do. What did you think of the scene after the Blackwater where he feels guilt for killing Renly, because it was in vain? This is very much the same sort of setup. There's no point in blaming "Ramsay's super powers" any more than complaining about whenever any character has put any other character into a problem with a risky maneauver. See: Cersei killing Robert with a risky gamble to gently caress up Ned, Olenna's "super powered" ability to poison Joffrey's wine, etc.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:05
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So It Goes posted:At that point, we can expect Jaime to kill Mycella since he killed a cousin in an earlier season. Yeah and for the record, I still don't understand why he killed the cousin three years later. I mean, knock him out or tell him to play dead or something. They do it all the time in snuff films.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:05
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Joachim1167 posted:If Stannis takes Winterfell, puts the Boltons to the torch, and unites the North...I'll be somewhat less disappointed. He won't. This is GoT; Ramsay will manage to defeat him anyway because the show loves Ramsay. Or maybe Brienne gets to kill him and spare the character from more dumb plots. Or maybe Ramsay gets them both.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:06
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The leaked clip cuts out before she actually gets burned to death, don't they? Why would you leak everything but the part that is going to make people the absolute angriest? This guy might be setting superfans for a high level troll if she doesn't actually burn in the show and if that's not his intention it SHOULD be, because that would be really funny.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:06
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The Unnamed One posted:Will the George Bush head be by his side? Apparently D&D repurposed HBO's forced apology for that and put it in Pycelle's mouth. quote:We were deeply dismayed to see this and find it unacceptable, disrespectful and in very bad taste. We made this clear to the executive producers of the series, who apologized immediately for this inadvertent, careless mistake. We are sorry this happened and will have it removed from any future DVD production. I laughed but D&D are amazingly petty, like when they named a retarded Lannister after Orson Scott Card because he criticised the show. The Unnamed One posted:They're mixing and matching Theon's stuff with Sansa if her "let me die as myself" in the preview to Episode 10 is anything to go by. You've got to remember your lemon cakes.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:07
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Maarek posted:The leaked clip cuts out before she actually gets burned to death, don't they? Why would you leak everything but the part that is going to make people the absolute angriest? This guy might be setting superfans for a high level troll if she doesn't actually burn in the show and if that's not his intention it SHOULD be, because that would be really funny. The preview shows winter thawing, Melisandre saying the storm is broken just like she promised, and Stannis outside Winterfell with sword drawn. It happens, and it works.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:08
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Dolash posted:
Because, given what has been shown, that character wouldn't actually do the action. I mean I know you will disagree with that sentiment but I have a hard time believing you don't understand the difference. BTW, I don't equate the feasibility of Olenna poisoning someone with what Ramsey has been up to the last couple seasons, thus creating a difference of opinion on how satisfying it is for events to happen predicated on those events.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:08
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Maarek posted:The leaked clip cuts out before she actually gets burned to death, don't they? Why would you leak everything but the part that is going to make people the absolute angriest? This guy might be setting superfans for a high level troll if she doesn't actually burn in the show and if that's not his intention it SHOULD be, because that would be really funny.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:08
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since the actress playing Arya turned 18 I fully expect her to be raped next season and Dolash will still defend it
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Jun 7, 2015 20:08
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God loving dammit nooneofconsequence posted:This show is stupid and I hate it.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:09
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So will Brienne actually do something this season? They spent the first few episodes setting up for it, but based on this latest episode I guess I don't know what setup is.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:10
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Kind of surprised the leaker hasn't posted the full episode yet, in glorious Blair Witch quality.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:11
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So It Goes posted:Because, given what has been shown, that character wouldn't actually do the action. I mean I know you will disagree with that sentiment but I have a hard time believing you don't understand the difference. BTW, I don't equate the feasibility of Olenna poisoning someone with what Ramsey has been up to the last couple seasons, thus creating a difference of opinion on how satisfying it is for events to happen predicated on those events. You can't just say "No the character would never do that" when the show is full of examples of Stannis being given choices between justice and duty and his whole story is a setup where Melisandre is telling him to do terrible things for the greater good while Davos tries to get him to be the just king he wants to be. Why, exactly, do you think Stannis would not burn someone he loves if it's the only way for him to continue his campaign?
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Jun 7, 2015 20:11
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Joachim1167 posted:If Stannis takes Winterfell, puts the Boltons to the torch, and unites the North...I'll be somewhat less disappointed. Haha, if you think anything ever remotely satisfying ever comes. Arya will train as an assassin and by the time she actually completes it, her entire family will be dead as will be everyone that she wants to kill and her plotline will be pointless. Brienne will do nothing of note. Tyrion will die of alcoholism. Dany will conquer Westeros, burn Stannis alive and whoops, turns out she is just as bugfuck crazy as the rest of her family and just starts killing characters left and right. Jon Snow will try to warn Dany about the white walkers, but end up getting executed. The white walkers will claim Ramsay Bolton as their new leader and the last scene of the show will be frost creeping through the throne room of Westeros as the new Night King Ramsay Bolton sits on the Iron Throne.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:12
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El Hefe posted:since the actress playing Arya turned 18 I fully expect her to be raped next season You're an intellectual coward if you can't explain why you don't like something and throw rape around like that instead.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:12
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For the record, I still think this season hasn't been awful and has had plenty of good moments like Tyrion actually meeting Dany etc. Dorne was definitely the worst part. At least that one girl had nice titties I guess. Overall, it will definitely end up the weakest of the five season so far, but I will still miss having the show to watch on Sunday nights.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:12
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Dolash posted:The preview shows winter thawing, Melisandre saying the storm is broken just like she promised, and Stannis outside Winterfell with sword drawn. It happens, and it works. Ohhh, I didn't see that. People are gonna be maaaad. Abner Assington posted:This is this week's version of "They didn't explicitly show Barristan die! He didn't have his throat slit! Maybe he's not dead!" and welp. I'm sure Shireen is just living off on a farm where she can run and play with Syrio and The Hound, right guys???
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Jun 7, 2015 20:14
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Dolash posted:You're an intellectual coward if you can't explain why you don't like something and throw rape around like that instead. go back to d&d oh wait this is tviv same thing lol
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Jun 7, 2015 20:14
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It would make more sense and be better writing for Stannis to burn himself alive to break the storm after ordering Davos to lead the army to victory and place Shireen on the Iron Throne.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:17
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Dapper Dan posted:Haha, if you think anything ever remotely satisfying ever comes. Arya will train as an assassin and by the time she actually completes it, her entire family will be dead as will be everyone that she wants to kill and her plotline will be pointless. Brienne will do nothing of note. Tyrion will die of alcoholism. Dany will conquer Westeros, burn Stannis alive and whoops, turns out she is just as bugfuck crazy as the rest of her family and just starts killing characters left and right. Jon Snow will try to warn Dany about the white walkers, but end up getting executed. The white walkers will claim Ramsay Bolton as their new leader and the last scene of the show will be frost creeping through the throne room of Westeros as the new Night King Ramsay Bolton sits on the Iron Throne. I could live with this except for the Ramsay Bolton part...'cause Richard Brake is cool.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:19
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So It Goes posted:For the record, I still think this season hasn't been awful and has had plenty of good moments like Tyrion actually meeting Dany etc. I remember earlier on the season some people praised that Varys was travelling with Tyrion because they are both fun characters that we like to see together. And it lasted 3 episodes. Now, Tyrion with Dany has lasted just 2 episodes. If Peter Dinklage wasn't great when interacting with most of the cast, I'll be really upset about those things.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:19
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Zippy the Bummer posted:It would make more sense and be better writing for Stannis to burn himself alive to break the storm after ordering Davos to lead the army to victory and place Shireen on the Iron Throne. He's trying to take the Iron Throne half because it's his by right and half to fulfill his duty as Azor Ahai to save the realm from the Long Night, evidence for which he had when he visited the Wall and everything had gone to poo poo. He can't do that part if he's dead. If he burned himself it'd be so his army can escape back to the Wall with orders to Davos to take Shireen to Essos and find somewhere far away to try and wait out the end of the world. That he chooses to burn Shireen instead in order to try and save the world makes him a twisted sort of hero.
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Jun 7, 2015 20:20
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