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Funky See Funky Do posted:Is that an accurate paraphrasing of what the book says? That God's plan is just to do whatever he wants with no real end game besides having a bunch of useless slaves? Would a Christian read it that way? Its more of a Guideline than a Rule sort of situation.
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Jun 25, 2015 16:44
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This seems more like it's trying to answer "What does God want us to do?" rather than "What is God doing?"
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Jun 25, 2015 16:53
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Funky See Funky Do posted:This seems more like it's trying to answer "What does God want us to do?" rather than "What is God doing?" The answer there is "Whatever he wants, because he can."
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Jun 25, 2015 17:00
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If you could understand what god was doing he wouldn't really be very godly in the Christian sense.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:07
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OwlFancier posted:If you could understand what god was doing he wouldn't really be very godly in the Christian sense. "Bu...bu...but our interpretation!" 
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Jun 25, 2015 17:08
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It should be noted that Wookieepedia and other such exercises are derivations of (certain strands of) Christian theology, and many negative effects are shared between the two.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:17
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You're going to have to draw the link between The Bible and Wookiepedia because I admit it's not very obvious to me.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:18
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Modern fan culture descends from the Sherlock Holmes fandom, which quickly developed a game called "Sherlockian speculation", which, in brief, was an attempt to put all the stories in chronological order, both with themselves and with respect to history, identify inconsistencies, etc. Much of the language around this and the approaches developed from an early essay/letter by a priest who jokingly treated it in theological terms, most notoriously "canon".
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Jun 25, 2015 17:30
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Effectronica posted:
Canon isn't just a theological term, and hasn't been since about 1600.
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Jun 25, 2015 18:32
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I for one would like to voice my support of Kyrie's tireless efforts to help some bad christians become better christians and find their path to salvation, remember to give to charity at every opportunity and try not to die a rich man if you can help it. God bless.
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Jun 25, 2015 18:32
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One time I noticed Kyrie being really harsh and judgmental in GBS a lot so I reminded him of the biblical recommendation from Paul's letter to the Ephesians to be kind and tenderhearted, forgiving others the way Christ has forgiven him. I hope he took it to heart. Everyone take that to heart if you want.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:34
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- hi
Obdicut posted:Canon isn't just a theological term, and hasn't been since about 1600. Canonicity in fan discourse is almost entirely in the theological sense.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:27
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Funky See Funky Do posted:You often hear the religious talk about God's Plan but that we simple mortals can't know what it is. Do they ever try to take a stab at it though? Are there any good theologians that have attempted a guess at what (the Judeo-Christian) God's plan is? That is something I would love to read. It's pretty simple. Love God, love your neighbour, receive the Sacraments, have faith, do good works, go to God in Heaven. There's not really any hidden message, it's pretty clearly laid out in Scripture and Tradition.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:27
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Effectronica posted:Canonicity in fan discourse is almost entirely in the theological sense. There isn't a difference. A writer's canon are the works that people take as 'authoritative', as in, works that they had finished and considered worthy for publication. Works that were completed by others, works that they wrote but didn't intend to publish, can be considered part of the canon or not by different people. That's why you hear about the Shakespeare canon, the Mark Twain canon. You also hear, in a larger sense, the 'canon' of Western Literature, meaning which books are accepted as part of that tradition, so even conceptually it exists as an idea separate from the religious. I am curious who this priest was, though. Any info? Cavaradossi posted:It's pretty simple. Love God, love your neighbour, receive the Sacraments, have faith, do good works, go to God in Heaven. There's not really any hidden message, it's pretty clearly laid out in Scripture and Tradition. Can't tell if you're joking, since the faith vs. works thing is a hugely debated religious issue and not seen as 'clear'.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:41
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Obdicut posted:Can't tell if you're joking, since the faith vs. works thing is a hugely debated religious issue and not seen as 'clear'. James 2:24 "You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified." Couldn't be a lot clearer than that.
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Jun 27, 2015 21:49
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Funky See Funky Do posted:You often hear the religious talk about God's Plan but that we simple mortals can't know what it is. Do they ever try to take a stab at it though? Are there any good theologians that have attempted a guess at what (the Judeo-Christian) God's plan is? That is something I would love to read. I mean, I think God's plan was to incarnate himself in reality as a physical human, be put to death by the state for preaching a radical doctrine of generosity and love, and in death found a community of believers that would (hopefully) take on the burden of living ethical lives despite the absence of any authority giving specific instructions after that point. I leave the question of how well this plan has worked out as an exercise for the reader. (Hint: Much like Elvis, people have continued to fantasize that he is alive and communicating with them through burn marks on their toast.)
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Jun 27, 2015 22:23
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Cavaradossi posted:James 2:24 "You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified." John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. Contradiction?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:25
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Uh, I think you'll find that Yog Sothoth is the Gate, Yog Sothoth is the Key?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:29
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Jastiger posted:John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. No. Faith is still necessary. Faith AND works AND grace.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:41
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Cavaradossi posted:James 2:24 "You see now that it is by deeds, and not only by believing, that someone is justified." The key insight here, of course, is that if one only believes "internally," keeping it in their heart and not acting on it, then they don't actually believe at all. Our actions always betray our true beliefs. Hence why there's no contradiction: the person who merely "believes" without acting doesn't actually believe anyways, and the person who does act without "believing" believes without realizing it.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:46
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Cavaradossi posted:No. Faith is still necessary. Faith AND works AND grace. What does that mean to people who are born but have no chance to have faith? Say all of the America's up until the colonies?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:48
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ru5tyb1ke5 posted:Hence why there's no contradiction: the person who merely "believes" without acting doesn't actually believe anyways, and the person who does act without "believing" believes without realizing it. That doesn't really work because I very definitely do not agree with the idea of heaven as described in the bible, though I do quite agree with a lot of what Jesus said. It would be a bit weird if I got sent to heaven when I died despite the fact that I really would prefer not to end up there.
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Jun 27, 2015 22:49
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Reznor posted:What does that mean to people who are born but have no chance to have faith? Say all of the America's up until the colonies? CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."
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Jun 27, 2015 22:52
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Cavaradossi posted:No. Faith is still necessary. Faith AND works AND grace. That sounds a lot more complicated than "just be nice", though. Cavaradossi posted:CCC 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: I believe God wants me to murder all redheaded people and to have as many children as possible without the consent of the women. I've also never heard of the Bible as I'm in a part of the world that hasn't had missionaries yet. Am I heaven bound while the doubter down your block is hell bound?
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Jun 27, 2015 22:55
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OwlFancier posted:That doesn't really work because I very definitely do not agree with the idea of heaven as described in the bible, though I do quite agree with a lot of what Jesus said. Let's set aside Heaven for a moment; it's kind of a weird abstraction with a lot of cultural baggage, and I don't think it contributes to a productive discussion. What we're really talking about here is salvation, and the question of who is being offered deliverance from their sins. Humans are flawed, and make mistakes, so everybody's going to need a little deliverance. The idea is to try to separate people who are sincerely struggling to be good people from the people who are just trying to hedonistically indulge themselves at the expense of others without getting caught. Of course, the God of judgment became Christ and died on the cross. There's no one around to throw you in Hell anymore, or even make you go to Heaven; you're free to do pretty much whatever you want. All that's left is just the Holy Spirit, living on wherever authentic Christian love can still be found.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:14
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Then what's deliverance and why do I need it? Not being sent to hell I can get but if that's not a problem anyway I'm not sure what role God plays?
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Jun 27, 2015 23:19
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OwlFancier posted:Then what's deliverance and why do I need it? Not being sent to hell I can get but if that's not a problem anyway I'm not sure what role God plays? http://demonbuster.com/
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Jun 27, 2015 23:22
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Christ died to offer deliverance from sin. If you think you suffer no ill effects from your misdeeds and need no forgiveness, then fair enough; perhaps Christ really does have nothing to offer you. Or, perhaps he's touched you in some way you don't realize. I have no idea. I think sin has a weight though, and some people carry around a heavy weight indeed. The removal of that weight, contingent on communion with the Holy Spirit of Christian community, is what Christ offered the world in death.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:26
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ru5tyb1ke5 posted:The removal of that weight, contingent on communion with the Holy Spirit of Christian community, is what Christ offered the world in death. Soooo.....false feelings of relief instead of seeking actual forgiveness and making up for your wrongs.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:27
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I tend to view guilt as something you would see a psychologist about rather than God. Not that belief in god may not provide a method for alleviating guilt, but it seems more of a human problem than a divine or metaphysical one. Not least because the most sinful person would presumably be the one that feels no guilt for it, which might explain why they do it so much.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:28
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CommieGIR posted:Soooo.....false feelings of relief instead of seeking actual forgiveness and making up for your wrongs. I won't deny that that is how many of the institutions that form mainstream Christianity operate.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:29
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CommieGIR posted:Soooo.....false feelings of relief instead of seeking actual forgiveness and making up for your wrongs. Seeking actual forgiveness from who exactly? I mean sure if you're Catholic you can just hit up any servant of Rome in your city.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:29
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Nintendo Kid posted:Seeking actual forgiveness from who exactly? I mean sure if you're Catholic you can just hit up any servant of Rome in your city. From either the person you've wronged, or yourself.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:31
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CommieGIR posted:From either the person you've wronged, or yourself. I think that seeking forgiveness from someone you've wronged seems like an extremely Christian thing to do. I'm not sure I would find simply forgiving myself to be very satisfying, though.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:33
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CommieGIR posted:From either the person you've wronged, or yourself. Seeking forgiveness from yourself is a fake idea. Often the people you've wronged refuse to have anything to do with you, or are for other reasons unreachable.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:34
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More important that you do, though. I mean I'm atheist so I'm super biased in this but I would definitely say that making restitution to the person you wronged is #1 on the list, followed by adopting a constructive attitude to your actions and feelings.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:36
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OwlFancier posted:More important that you do, though. I mean I'm atheist so I'm super biased in this but I would definitely say that making restitution to the person you wronged is #1 on the list, followed by adopting a constructive attitude to your actions and feelings. You can't forcibly make restitution to someone who wants nothing to do with ya. It's why Catholic confessionals work so well for a lot of people, it gives you a Designated Forgiveness Zone to work towards.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:41
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No you can't, and if you're in that position then simply adopting a constructive attitude is all you can do.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:42
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OwlFancier posted:More important that you do, though. I mean I'm atheist so I'm super biased in this but I would definitely say that making restitution to the person you wronged is #1 on the list, followed by adopting a constructive attitude to your actions and feelings. I want to note that you put restitution above therapy, which suggests that you might not see it as a simple matter of eliminating the uncomfortable feelings associated with guilt. On some level, you accept a moral law that its important for people to follow, and an account that actually ought to be settled. Christ's death on the cross actually suggests something more radical than your atheism: all debts are settled, but at the cost of losing the comfort and security of moral certainty. No one has anything to hold against anyone else, no one can claim God's support in blaming or condemning anyone else. However, in order to enjoy the fruits of His sacrifice, in the form of the Holy Spirit, you have to aspire to radical, absolute Christian love instead of fidelity to the moral law. This isn't a legalistic requirement, intended to punish or incentivize you: participation in the authentic Christian community of the Holy Spirit is sort of the delivery mechanism. Again, many mainstream Christian movements have fallen back into the logic of moral law, and that is often the worst part of them.
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Jun 27, 2015 23:59
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ru5tyb1ke5 posted:I want to note that you put restitution above therapy, which suggests that you might not see it as a simple matter of eliminating the uncomfortable feelings associated with guilt. On some level, you accept a moral law that its important for people to follow, and an account that actually ought to be settled. That sort of doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I don't have a concept of what the Holy Spirit is, what it does, or what difference it would make to me. I do believe in a moral law, in the sense that I am a materialist, and believe that harming someone is a material damage, and incurs a material debt, which must be materially repaid. I also would say that where possible, this comes before personal comfort, that your debts should be repaid before you consider your personal preferences. Not always at the expense of personal wellbeing, of course, because a well person is a productive person who can more effectively work to repay their debts, but certainly before luxury. The idea of punishment isn't really a constructive one though I don't think, punishing people doesn't repay their obligations, and often gets in the way of their ability to repay them, so I can't see a lot of use for it.
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Jun 28, 2015 00:07
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