I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

So what are the chances of Bibi-kun starting a war with Iran to force the US to choose between them and make sure the normalization of American-Iranian relations fails?

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 05:44

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 13:37

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Venom Snake posted:

Bibi knows Israel has zero chance of winning a war with Iran and he's not going to start one.

He could still provoke a crisis, even though Israel can't realistically conquer and occupy Iran. I think there's a good chance he simply will not allow the nuke deal to be concluded, hell with the consequences

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 06:43

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Dolash posted:

I'd actually be curious at the reactions if Iran came out one day and revealed they'd actually completed one (or several) nuclear weapons in complete secrecy, and had some way to prove it. If Israel and the US were suddenly forced to accept a world where Iran was armed with nuclear weapons I think there'd be some pretty drastic shifts in the Middle East power balance, and probably a fair bit of surprise from some corners when they discover the US isn't willing to launch a nuclear first strike in that scenario if Iran doesn't use theirs.

I think Israel is though. I could see Israel getting incredibly close to launching the nukes if and when Iran gets them

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 09:32

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

It's sad to think the best outcome for Palestinians is probably for Israel to just straight up invade and absorb their country, then after a few decades of full blown South Africa style apartheid for them to get equal rights and finally have a pluralistic state

# ¿ Mar 19, 2015 10:53

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

So tell me about the split between Mizrahi/Sephardi/Arab World background Jews and Ashkenazim? I was aware the Ethiopian Jews were heavily discriminated against, but apparently so are/were the Mizrahim? To the point where literally all of Israel's PMs have been Ashkenazi, Ultra-Orthodox are almost entirely Ashkenazi, and there is a massive gap in educational and economic achievement close to 70 years after Israel came into existence? Like, what in the ever-living gently caress? It's really hard to look at Israel and see anything other than an apartheid state run by genocidal theocrats who comprise like a fifth of the population when Palestine is taken into account

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Mar 21, 2015

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 06:58

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Jack of Hearts posted:

If you look at the chart, India doesn't compare to Japan at all. Japan is a weird outlier, especially compared to the polling results from the other east Asian countries, but also in general. Pakistan likes Israel more than Japan.

Japan has almost no evanglical Christians to go all insane cultist and has a history of postwar social democratic style liberalism and opposing Israel similar to Germany/Europe

# ¿ Mar 27, 2015 05:27

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

hakimashou posted:

Their cause of... islamist terrorist violence against an ally of the west?

Violence against non-violent movements is wrong and historically attracts a great deal of condemnation from people that have power.

Violence against violent islamist terrorism is par for the course all around the world today.

Unless the palestinians commit to nonviolence, their cause isnt one that people in power will ever support. 9/11 and so much of what followed pretty much made islamist violence toxic in the eyes of the world.

It's hilarious because the Zionists themselves were terrorists in the 1930s and had blackshirt divisions whose leaders idolized Mussolini. Your argument, once again, is might makes right, because literal sociopathy is the only way anyone could support the genocidal apartheid state that is Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

edit: loving holy lol Israel to this very day has a military decoration named after the literal self-avowed fascists. Truly this is the state with the moral imperative here

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Mar 27, 2015

# ¿ Mar 27, 2015 06:08

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Like honestly can someone please explain to me how a state that honors literal, open fascists can have the moral imperative? A state whose prime minister for 6 years was a key member of the literal, open fascist group? Anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Mar 27, 2015

# ¿ Mar 27, 2015 06:11

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

So you don't think the moral dimension of this conflict is important? You don't actually care whether Israel is in the wrong or the Palestinians are in the right?

# ¿ Mar 27, 2015 07:12

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

hakimashou posted:

African-Americans were right, and following Dr King's nonviolence, they were successful in their struggle.

The plight of the African-American: a solved problem

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 07:26 on Mar 27, 2015

# ¿ Mar 27, 2015 07:22

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

It's almost like Israel is much more able to improve the situation of the Palestinians than Hamas or any of the other Palestinian institutions are. And that therefore the impetus is on Israel to do that. And that it doesn't ultimately matter that much how good or bad the Palestinian institutions are, because they're powerless. Whether or not they had power at some point in the past doesn't change the fact that they do not now

# ¿ Mar 28, 2015 05:00

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

emanresu tnuocca posted:

I guess I should have thrown in a few more ironicats, I sometimes forget how it is in a forum where people must appear the most leftest

Wasn't the pulling of Nazi troops and settlers from occupied Poland was the real genocide, hmmmmm liberals? :smug:

# ¿ Mar 28, 2015 20:15

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Israel has a worse track record of offering to sell nukes to rogue states and actors than Iran does, BTW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Alleged_collaboration_with_Israel

# ¿ Mar 29, 2015 01:20

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

bencreateddisco posted:

he seems to think that the US would allow Israel to commit genocide because of 9/11.

That's a pretty accurate summary of the current situation actually

# ¿ Mar 29, 2015 07:20

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Main Paineframe posted:

This is, by the way, why it's so very important to pay very close attention to wording in the I/P debate. When someone says that they want a demilitarized Palestinian state (which is what Netanyahu's "two-state solution" has always been), what they really mean is that they want a helpless Palestinian puppet state-in-name-only which is entirely at the mercy of Israel and under their complete and total military control. It's the greatest dream of center-right pro-Israel types, since the only actual effective change to the status quo would be that Israel would be able to delegitimize the Palestinian claims by saying "hey, we already gave you a state, what more could you want".

South Africa tried it, and nobody bought it then either

# ¿ Mar 30, 2015 01:48

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

My Imaginary GF posted:

Bantustans, to my knowledge, never used mass suicide bombings for decades to push their agenda.

Apartheid ended in South Africa because the cold war ended and the threat from communism receded. Maybe when the war on terror is won and islamist militancy ends, then we can re-examine our trade policies towards Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe#Military_campaign

# ¿ Mar 30, 2015 01:52

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Hakimashou agrees we should nuke Tel Aviv to finally get rid of the obnoxious fuckers, glad to see it

# ¿ Mar 30, 2015 19:11

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Kim Jong Il posted:

Arbitrary? I'm going by the standard of the international community. I loving know Hamas's positions. They support a temporary, 10-year ceasefire and flooding Israel with refugees. I said that from the loving start before you fired up Google because I already knew what their position was.

loving refugees of Israeli ethnic cleansing wanting to return to their ancestral homes!!!!!! :argh:

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 01:59

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Liberal_L33t posted:

I would ask if this thread thinks that Indian independence would never have happened without notorious Hitler-admirer Subhas Chandra Bose, either. But then I realize at least a plurality of D&D probably does think that

So do you think Lehi had a net positive impact on the world?

Liberal_L33t posted:

Just so we're absolutely clear, here: those of you who arguing that Palestinians have good reasons to reject non-violence: Are you in favor of suicide bombing of civilian targets? Are you in favor of indiscriminate rocket and mortar fire into civilian neighborhoods? Don't change the subject to what Israelis have done. Are you in favor of these tactics, yes or no?

If the subject is murder of civilians and terrorism, then it's not changing the subject if Israel regularly does these things, is it? I'm opposed to these things, unfortunately the party with the power to stop them from happening, Israel, isn't interested in doing that

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Mar 31, 2015

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 02:28

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

I wonder what Malcom X thought about Palestine?

http://www.malcolm-x.org/docs/gen_zion.htm

quote:

Taken from The Egyptian Gazette -- Sept. 17, 1964

The Zionist armies that now occupy Palestine claim their ancient Jewish prophets predicted that in the "last days of this world" their own God would raise them up a "messiah" who would lead them to their promised land, and they would set up their own "divine" government in this newly-gained land, this "divine" government would enable them to "rule all other nations with a rod of iron."

If the Israeli Zionists believe their present occupation of Arab Palestine is the fulfillment of predictions made by their Jewish prophets, then they also religiously believe that Israel must fulfill its "divine" mission to rule all other nations with a rod of irons, which only means a different form of iron-like rule, more firmly entrenched even, than that of the former European Colonial Powers.

These Israeli Zionists religiously believe their Jewish God has chosen them to replace the outdated European colonialism with a new form of colonialism, so well disguised that it will enable them to deceive the African masses into submitting willingly to their "divine" authority and guidance, without the African masses being aware that they are still colonized.

CAMOUFLAGE

The Israeli Zionists are convinced they have successfully camouflaged their new kind of colonialism. Their colonialism appears to be more "benevolent," more "philanthropic," a system with which they rule simply by getting their potential victims to accept their friendly offers of economic "aid," and other tempting gifts, that they dangle in front of the newly-independent African nations, whose economies are experiencing great difficulties. During the 19th century, when the masses here in Africa were largely illiterate it was easy for European imperialists to rule them with "force and fear," but in this present era of enlightenment the African masses are awakening, and it is impossible to hold them in check now with the antiquated methods of the 19th century.

The imperialists, therefore, have been compelled to devise new methods. Since they can no longer force or frighten the masses into submission, they must devise modern methods that will enable them to manouevre the African masses into willing submission.

The modern 20th century weapon of neo-imperialism is "dollarism." The Zionists have mastered the science of dollarism: the ability to come posing as a friend and benefactor, bearing gifts and all other forms of economic aid and offers of technical assistance. Thus, the power and influence of Zionist Israel in many of the newly "independent" African nations has fast-become even more unshakeable than that of the 18th century European colonialists... and this new kind of Zionist colonialism differs only in form and method, but never in motive or objective.

At the close of the 19th century when European imperialists wisely foresaw that the awakening masses of Africa would not submit to their old method of ruling through force and fears, these ever-scheming imperialists had to create a "new weapon," and to find a "new base" for that weapon.

DOLLARISM

The number one weapon of 20th century imperialism is zionist dollarism, and one of the main bases for this weapon is Zionist Israel. The ever-scheming European imperialists wisely placed Israel where she could geographically divide the Arab world, infiltrate and sow the seed of dissension among African leaders and also divide the Africans against the Asians.

Zionist Israel's occupation of Arab Palestine has forced the Arab world to waste billions of precious dollars on armaments, making it impossible for these newly independent Arab nations to concentrate on strengthening the economies of their countries and elevate the living standard of their people.

And the continued low standard of living in the Arab world has been skillfully used by the Zionist propagandists to make it appear to the Africans that the Arab leaders are not intellectually or technically qualified to lift the living standard of their people ... thus, indirectly "enducing" Africans to turn away from the Arabs and towards the Israelis for teachers and technical assistance.

"They cripple the bird's wing, and then condemn it for not flying as fast as they."

The imperialists always make themselves look good, but it is only because they are competing against economically crippled newly independent countries whose economies are actually crippled by the Zionist-capitalist conspiracy. They can't stand against fair competition, thus they dread Gamal Abdul Nasser's call for African-Arab Unity under Socialism.

MESSIAH?

If the "religious" claim of the Zionists is true that they were to be led to the promised land by their messiah, and Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine is the fulfillment of that prophesy: where is their messiah whom their prophets said would get the credit for leading them there? It was Ralph Bunche who "negotiated" the Zionists into possession of Occupied Palestine! Is Ralph Bunche the messiah of Zionism? If Ralph Bunche is not their messiah, and their messsiah has not yet come, then what are they doing in Palestine ahead of their messiah?

Did the Zionists have the legal or moral right to invade Arab Palestine, uproot its Arab citizens from their homes and seize all Arab property for themselves just based on the "religious" claim that their forefathers lived there thousands of years ago? Only a thousand years ago the Moors lived in Spain. Would this give the Moors of today the legal and moral right to invade the Iberian Peninsula, drive out its Spanish citizens, and then set up a new Moroccan nation ... where Spain used to be, as the European zionists have done to our Arab brothers and sisters in Palestine?...

In short the Zionist argument to justify Israel's present occupation of Arab Palestine has no intelligent or legal basis in history ... not even in their own religion. Where is their Messiah?

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 02:51

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Are people surprised that the Nation of Islam is antisemitic and rife with the appropriately adapted conspiracy theories? I thought this was well-known.

I'm just saying using Malcom X of all people to concern troll about Hamas is hilarious, considering the guy

Main Paineframe posted:

thought white people were the literal devil, hoped for their extermination and cheered their deaths, and referred to MLK as a "chump".

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 03:48

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Kim Jong Il posted:

Under this same logic, Mizrahim are justified in their fervent desire for revenge against Arabs.

If by "revenge" they mean "can return home and/or be compensated for lost property" then absolutely. If you mean "genocide" then no. This isn't hard

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 04:59

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Kim Jong Il posted:

You don't expect millions of hostile refugees coming in to attempt to commit genocide?

Do you think apartheid or segregation shouldn't have ended because of the very real possibility of retribution on the part of the freed black people?

Just admit you're in favor of ethnic cleansing and apartheid, nobody is fooled by this song and dance routine. It'll save a lot of effort and argument for everyone here

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 05:44

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Dead Reckoning posted:

That's not an answer, though. You're just trying to shut down the discussion by accusing anyone who questions your position of supporting apartheid. KJI made a legitimate point that there is a rather extensive history of Palestinian violence, both individual and organized, against Israeli civilians. If Israel is going to dismantle its extensive system of movement controls and give hundreds of thousands of Palestinians the run of the country for the express purpose of "returning to their homes," that's something that deserves to be addressed. After all, Israelis aren't worried about the South Africa outcome, they're worried about the Zimbabwe outcome.

It was asked why the Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Israel should not have the right to return to their homes, and the answer was that the Palestinians will be violent and try to exact revenge on the Israelis. But that's not supported by evidence. The exact same point about the Palestinians having a history of terrorism was true of the ANC, and there was no retribution. But pointing that out is trying to shut down conversation? They're openly supporting apartheid and ethnic cleansing because according to them the alternative, having the Arab savages exact revenge, is worse. I'm not accusing them of anything, simply repeating what they've already said

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 07:27

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Absurd Alhazred posted:

And again, that is because they had a leader who over the course of years repeatedly reassured white Afrikaners that they would not be harmed, and followed through with it.

Meanwhile, Christian and Jewish Algerians, especially the latter as much natives of that land as the Muslims, were butchered and summarily kicked out of Algeria post-independence. You are cherry-picking.

I'm talking about 2015, not 1948. The Arabs living in Mandatory Palestine were butchered and summarily kicked out by the Israelis. You keep purposefully conflating these eras, the present and 1948, but somehow only the crimes of the Arabs and Palestinians count in the past?

Unless you're taking the Hakimashou position of "the Israelis won, which makes their crimes irrelevant because might makes right, so enjoy your apartheid"

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 07:37

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Liberal_L33t posted:

So, if I'm reading this correctly as regards the "right of return": It is unfair that the Israeli extremists, settlers et al. can terrorize the Palestinian territories, therefore, the best solution is to give Palestinian extremists unfettered access to Israeli civilians because that's more fair somehow?

Insisting that everyone else is just as lovely as you are, and if they claim otherwise they're a hypocrite, is about the oldest right wing argument tactic there ever has been

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Mar 31, 2015

# ¿ Mar 31, 2015 23:11

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

I guess I just don't feel a whole lot of sympathy for Israelis if/when the consequences of their ethnic cleaning biting them in the rear end?

# ¿ Apr 1, 2015 00:17

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

The Insect Court posted:

Thank you for being honest about why you support the "right of return". So many anti-Zionists disingenuously pretend it's about the rights of Palestinians, so it's quite refreshing to hear one of you just come out and gleefully state you're looking forward to those filthy Israeli Jews get what's coming to them.

won't somebody think the real victims of the Nakba, the very people who perpetrated it??????

# ¿ Apr 1, 2015 09:28

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

I guess add collective punishment to ethnic cleansing and apartheid on the list of things Insect Court supports

# ¿ Apr 2, 2015 01:02

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Maybe you could say the truth ........ is in the middle?

But for real, that's sort of a bullshit hand wave away of all the specific factors contributing to problems today. Problems like, say, the US unquestioningly supporting Israel in everything they do and giving them free use of our Security Council veto. You can't just throw your hands up and say everyone's at fault, because that's just not true.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2015 03:00

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

TheImmigrant posted:

Well, Lebanon and Palestine, both of which had heavy Christian populations, were not overwhelmingly Muslim under the Ottomans. A large number of people, possibly a majority, in what is today Lebanon very likely preferred the French to the Ottomans.

Well sure, privileged minority groups were chosen as the stooges of imperialist governments everywhere, but that doesn't mean imperialism was a good thing, does it?

fits my needs posted:

Why are they deporting black people for Israel? Are they black jews?

Turns out the Israeli population is just a wee bit racist

The Insect Court posted:

None of this is true, btw.

Oh well, if they aren't Jews I guess it's OK to round them all up in concentration camps. Glad to get that clarified

icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 07:23 on Apr 6, 2015

# ¿ Apr 6, 2015 07:09

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

The Insect Court posted:

Oh no! Someone better tell those non-Jewish Israelis they're not allowed! You'd better get on the phone, because you'll need to call two million people. Just be gentle when you break the news to them.

*quotes endless reams of Israelis on Facebook and Twitter calling for the extermination of the Arab Untermenschen*

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 23:49

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

Lum_ posted:

It's not Waffen-SS tier. Civilians were not sought out specifically to be annihilated as a form of terror (as a Likudnik whose name escapes me said at the time of the war, "Look, if we wanted to kill millions of Gazans tomorrow, we could, but we haven't, so clearly we are moral!").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

quote:

Lehi split from the Irgun militant group in 1940 in order to continue fighting the British during World War II. Lehi initially sought an alliance with Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, offering to fight alongside them against the British in return for the transfer of all Jews from Nazi-occupied Europe to Palestine.[2] Believing that Nazi Germany was a lesser enemy of the Jews than Britain, Lehi twice attempted to form an alliance with the Nazis.[2] During World War II it declared that it would establish a Jewish state based upon "nationalist and totalitarian principles".[2][17] After Stern's death in 1942, the new leadership of Lehi began to move it towards support for Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union.[1] In 1944 Lehi officially declared its support for National Bolshevism.[6] It said that its National Bolshevism involved an amalgamation of left-wing and right-wing political elements � Stern said Lehi incorporated elements of both the left and the right[2] � however this change was unpopular and Lehi began to lose support as a result.[18]

Lehi and the Irgun were jointly responsible for the massacre in Deir Yassin. Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and made many other attacks on the British in Palestine.[19] On 29 May 1948, the government of Israel, having inducted its activist members into the Tzahal, formally disbanded Lehi, though some of its members carried out one more terrorist act, the assassination of Folke Bernadotte some months later,[20] an act condemned by Bernadotte's replacement as mediator, Ralph Bunche.[21] Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980, Israel instituted a military decoration in "award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel," the Lehi ribbon.[22] Former Lehi leader Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister of Israel in 1983.

OK, so Israel is only inspired by the Waffen-SS. Glad to hear it

# ¿ May 6, 2015 23:42

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

If this is the Iran thread also: some news report was talking about how lifting of sanctions could cripple Iran's economy further, by flooding it with cheap imported goods, leading to widespread unemployment

Iran still controls its own trade policy, it has complete power over the price and volume of imported goods

# ¿ Jul 15, 2015 19:53

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

only democracy in the middle east, ladies and gentlemen. actually, just the gentlemen. gently caress you ladies

# ¿ Jul 21, 2015 20:17

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# ¿ May 16, 2024 13:37

icantfindaname: Jul 1, 2008

acually mom it's called ephebophilia

just to recap, thanks for the confirmation that Israel is knowingly pursuing a campaign of mass ethnic cleansing that in cases may amount to genocide.

Death to Israel

# ¿ Nov 6, 2015 16:36

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