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If it's the PFLP, this might turn interesting, I thought they were as good as done. West Bank unrest has always been more difficult for Israel to deal with because it's impossible to claim self-defense when you're openly and actively stealing resources and because of the amount of civilians present. Knife and car attacks are also virtually unpreventable in comparison to rockets - have they been used previously or is it a new tactic?
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Nov 19, 2014 00:40
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My Imaginary GF posted:Israel's leaders are willing to step up and say, "Attacks on holy sites are wrong, no if ands or buts." https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13229-israel-bombed-161-mosques-in-gaza
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Nov 19, 2014 01:31
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My Imaginary GF posted:Enter Russia and China unconditionally supporting Israel, in exchange for precise monetary conditions. Russia and China both recognize Palestine and have been cultivating relations with Arab and Muslim nations since the Cold War, not going to happen. United States supports Israel only because it's internal demographics and lobbying, there is no military or economic reason or advantage to gain from supporting Israel. My Imaginary GF posted:A mosque with a weapons cache is defiled ground, and not a holy site. Unless all of them had weapons caches, your initial statement was false. Accept that.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:37
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes, 161 of them. False statement with no proof.
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Nov 19, 2014 01:40
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Dilkington posted:I'm surprised this is controversial. Considering all the examples we have from history, I thought it was obvious that ethnic cleansing is relatively easy even for modestly organized groups. Israel has a large military and the advantage of short lines of supply. Israel is a first world state who is protected by United States, in the age of 24/7 news networks in one of the most followed regions in the world. They can't actually engage in genocide without a massive economic and military backlash that would destroy them as a functional state and have no reason for doing such a suicidal maneuver. Anyone who thinks that is something that would happen doesn't know anything about the conflict or the international realities involved. Engaging in some fantasy where Israel kills just because it wants to kill doesn't do good for anybody. Back on the topic: My Imaginary GF posted:Israel's leaders are willing to step up and say, "Attacks on holy sites are wrong, no if ands or buts." quote:Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas also issued a condemnation of "the attack on Jewish worshippers in their place of prayer and [of] the killing of civilians no matter who is doing it". Spain will also possibly recognize Palestine: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/11/spanish-mps-call-recognising-palestine-20141118211738704786.html DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 01:53
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My Imaginary GF posted:http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/11/19/world/middleeast/killings-in-jerusalem-synagogue-complex.html?referrer=&_r=0 Nothing to do with what you asked for. Statements were made, if he doesn't hold to them in reality any more the Israel does, that's not my problem 
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Nov 19, 2014 01:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:If you cannot see the context with Jewish presence at the temple mount being a "contamination" of the site in the eyes of Arabs, I cannot help you. If you want to change topic to something else, I cannot help you either. If you want to discuss about the rhetoric used instead of what is actually happening, I'm sure there are people here willing to engage you in that. Edit: Street battles and unrest in both Jerusalem and West Bank: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/11/palestinians-suffer-israeli-settler-reprisals-20141118185543648426.html Apparently a mob is preventing them from demolishing the attacker 's homes. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 02:04
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Petty collective punishment in East Jerusalem: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/11/east-jerusalem-under-collective-punishment-2014111682924491709.html http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/20141105_draconian_steps_in_jerusalem
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Nov 19, 2014 02:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.' Many states in the region are apartheid states or religiously oppressive to the point that the same end result is true. Many don't have specific laws but the populace is so lovely that you don't want to live there regardless if you're different. Is this news to you? Israel is an apartheid state. The existence of other apartheid states or other forms of oppression does not invalidate that fact.
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Nov 19, 2014 02:34
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fade5 posted:
License plates. I also made these for anyone wanting specifics on why Israel is an colonialist apartheid state: http://m.imgur.com/gallery/L86hXg4 http://m.imgur.com/gallery/Tv0cv So, Netanyahu already calling it a Battle for Jerusalem  http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30107446
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Nov 19, 2014 04:22
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SedanChair posted:So I suppose HAMISIS would be justified in nuking Israel if Israel can't keep any Zionist attacks from happening for two election cycles. We're not applying two sets of standards are we? I would just reiterate that Israel hasn't actually made any such claim or promise, it's just something MIGF has pulled out of his rear end as usual. Jagchosis posted:These are quite good, I added these to the OP. Thanks! Uhh, I pretty clearly wrote that there were civilians, but they were working for either the government or the military..I even write that there are some now, in the same capacity, maybe read it again 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 05:12
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The Insect Court posted:Yeah, exactly. Hence our agreement as to how that's like the So what's your point? Yeah, anti-semites exist, good job. Is this what you are looking for? I don't need to be an anti-semite to condemn Zionism as a poo poo ideology and Israel as a poo poo state any more then I need to be anti-Persian to do the same with Islamism and Iran. EDIT: Seriously for once try to somehow tie your insane quest to try to prove how everyone is an anti-semite to the actual point of this thread. Are the points being made because people hate Jews? Are the facts wrong? Is the criticism invalidated and borne out of racism? What is going on here? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 07:44
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who howl about "reverse racism" and the "race card" in every discussion touching on the subject of racism
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The Insect Court posted:What's going on here is what goes on in pretty much every I/P thread. For example, in the last big I/P thread I kind of clocked out when the discussion moved onto how young Jewish settlers in the West Bank could be before it was no longer morally permissible to kill them. To be fair there were a range of opinion, but there was a very vocal contingent who took the position that even the infants could be slaughtered by Palestinian freedom fighters and they'd still all have it coming. Now, could a hypothetical disinterested party possibly attempt make the case that such a position might in fact not be motivated wholly by high-minded objections to Israeli government policy? Without endorsing that analysis I would humbly submit that it should not be instantly met with shrieking about Zionist persecution and should at least be considered. A very vocal contingent of like three people at best. The "range of opinion" was literally them and "no it's not OK to kill children or unarmed civilians you lunatics". Nobody denies that anti-semites exist and they occasionally appear in these threads, but 99% of the posters in the threads don't make anti-semitic statements so until someone does it actually shouldn't be considered at all. The Insect Court posted:Exactly. Someone literally arguing for the West Bank(and the rest of Israel, maybe?) to be made judenfrei - not remotely anti-semitic at all. I'm sure they call for the total extermination of other ethnic groups all the time, you just missed them advocating the genocide of those filthy murderous land-stealing Angles, Saxons, and Jutes. Not a single person in this thread or the past ones has called for total extermination of Jews nor Israel proper to be made "Judenfrei". Maybe you're confusing D&D with GBS? Kim Jong Il posted:How is it appropriate to only represent one side in the OP? Well, only one side ever bothers to appear in these threads and defend their side on the issue so it is all the same really DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 15:56
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Friendly Tumour posted:So what's the anti-israeli side's take on killing rabbis in synagogues with meat cleavers? Like why it happened, the repercussions that might ensue and the issue of religion and attacks on civilians in the larger context of the conflict? Or do you just want to hear that it's a bad thing you shouldn't do? Because it is.
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Nov 19, 2014 16:59
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murphyslaw posted:Having said that I hope to gently caress that this blows over soon without another mountain of corpses, but that seems unlikely. Jesus christ Gaza is still pretty fresh and this is West Bank. Israel can't bomb East Jerusalem now, can it? We'll see police assaults and collective punishment but that is nothing new when you live under apartheid and colonialism. Unless this really turns into another Intifada for real I think a massive death toll is unlikely.
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Nov 19, 2014 17:03
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Friendly Tumour posted:Oh I think it's going to escalate too, what I'm interested in are the possible outcomes of that escalation. It's been half-a-century of the same in one way or the other, we pretty much know for sure what the outcome is. Discussing that isn't going to lead into avenues that are any more interesting. Israel has Palestinians completely at their mercy in every possible way, they are a subject population with no capacity to change their fortunes. No matter if Palestinians have been peaceful or violent, Israel has never stopped it's colonization. Only actors who can change anything are Israel itself and United States that stands in the way of rest of the world sanctioning Israel (because everybody hates Israel). The most logical outcome is a single-state solution when US inevitably stops supporting Israel and the rest of the world sanctions it into submission and the end of the Jewish State when that state wont be allowed to be an apartheid state. There will be too many settlers by then for anything else to be feasible. Friendly Tumour posted:Yeah, so unless I'm willing to join choir in condemning Israel, I shouldn't post here? Well, glad we got that sorted out. No but if you don't recognize it's main motives - preserving Jewish supremacy and acquiring more land - you have no hope of analyzing it's actions or predict accurate outcomes to anything about the conflict. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 18:01
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Friendly Tumour posted:Is there any reason to think that both sides are willing to bury the hatchet and live in a single state without killing each other? Yep. They're educated first world humans who will choose living in relative peace and prosperity with their families over economic isolation and civil war. Palestinians have shown their willingness to this when given the impression their conditions will actually improve, it is the fact that there is nothing pressuring Israelis to do the same is the problem.
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Nov 19, 2014 18:07
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JeffersonClay posted:Do you think another intifada will make the US more or less likely to stop supporting Israel? It doesn't matter, because younger Americans don't give any more of a poo poo about the conflict then they do about anything else in the ME. At best it would raise awaraness for few months and then fade away, and Israel's inevitable massacres wouldn't exactly increase their support. America doesn't actually have to become anti-Israel for the rest of the world to deal with them, it just has to become ambivalent.
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Nov 19, 2014 19:29
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JeffersonClay posted:So you think the only possible resistance is indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi-cleaving? I'm not suggesting palestinians should sit around doing nothing, I'm suggesting that random violence directed at the most sympathetic Israelis is counterproductive. I think the world's attention span is so crazy short that nobody will be talking about this one attack in a year, and if it slides into a bigger conflict, all anyone will remember is "Oh yeah, they were being assholes again and a bunch of people died, mostly Palestinians." I mean nobody gives a poo poo about those three kids that got killed anymore, the ensuing demolition of Gaza stays longer in memory though. So they will not really matter in the long run. Maybe even hasten it because Israel doesn't even pretend to respond proportionally anymore.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:13
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The Insect Court posted:You have this bizarre paranoia about being accused of being an anti-semite, C.G. Lots of the more extreme anti-Zionists who show up in I/P threads do. I'm not sure why, I haven't called you an anti-semite and don't plan to. Still, I have to wonder where that fear and preoccupation of yours comes from. Why don't you name the clear and obvious anti-semites in this thread, with their anti-semitic statements hopefully so we can avoid them instead of just making sweeping claims about how it is clear.
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Nov 19, 2014 22:24
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The Insect Court posted:Please do try to calm down, C.G. I'm not accusing you(or any other particular individual) of being an anti-semite. I'm just saying that the hatred directed towards Israel and Jewish Israelis is so disproportionate and so personal that I want to understand the motivations behind it. Why do some posters insist that Israelis are unfeeling, bloodthirsty monsters? Why do some seem to react to the prospect of Palestinian terrorist groups killing Israeli civilians with something ranging from indifference to glee? Where does this devaluation of the life of Jewish Israelis comes from? Besides, "anti-semite or not" is a clumsy and inaccurate way to discuss the role bigotry plays in shaping discourse. It would be foolish to insist that a person is either a racist or a non-racist, that it's a simple binary adjective, wouldn't it? Well, Israel is a special case. I mean I'm not from US so I can't attest to it personally, but it must suck that every source pretty much tells you that it is a great country, that your tax dollars go to it, that there is no politician willing to speak against it. As a Finn, it's normal to me just to consider Israel as another poo poo country among others. Europe and the rest of the world ranks it up to Iran and NK in positivity. But even for us, US blocks resolutions in UN, forces us to accept it in the "Western democratic clubs" and other such bullshit. People actually defend it online, which is loving bizarre. But unlike Americans, at least we don't pay for that "priviledge". Is it really so strange that the spoiled little bitch of rear end in a top hat countries in the world gets more hate then the rear end in a top hat countries that suffer for being that? If you really haven't looked at the special treatment of Israel as a reason that it's so hated, well maybe that is what you should do next. Because I really don't think your average left-wing American wakes up one day hating Jews out of nowhere. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Nov 19, 2014 |
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Nov 19, 2014 23:21
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Pauline Kael posted:My response was less about your lust for jew blood and more about D&D being a place with a narrow range of acceptable opinion. Sorry for interrupting your fair and balanced review of I/P. Narrow opinion is better then poo poo-and-run posting, which is all that your side is able to contribute. Put up or shut up.
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Nov 20, 2014 16:12
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SedanChair posted:As usual, "enforcement of correct thought" is "saying things and arguing." American right wing Israel apologists get confused because people on the internet don't just nod their heads agreeably like their terrified employees. The thing is, no matter how much pro-Israelis post about echo chambers, only one side is making effortposts with citations and historical context and replying in detail when their opinions are challenged. If this was an unfounded echo chamber, why would anyone bother? MIGF is literally the only honest poster among them because at least he loving acknowledges a reply when it's directed to him, and that's loving sad. Pro-Israelis are just cowards who can't stick with their principles when they are called upon it. There's more then enough shitposters to make it a rough 50/50 debate if they weren't too much of a bitch to stand by their support of apartheid and colonialism.
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Nov 20, 2014 18:22
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Baloogan posted:There is no common ground, no point in having a discussion with yourself and others like yourself. Which, in its own way, is very scary. I'm Finnish. My government does not support Israel and the populace near universally hates the country.  If there is no common ground, that means you indeed are pro-apartheid and pro-colonialism. I don't understand why you just can't come out and say that. I'd be fascinated to discuss why you think apartheid is awesome. My Imaginary GF posted:If by 'apartheid and colonialism' you mean 'development of state institutions,' then yes, I stand by Israeli policy. Not only is it easier to do so in America, its very popular, and extremely profitable to do so. Yeah, I won't respond to the shittiest posters, because there is nothing to respond to that will influence them or allow others to gain a finer understanding of the political realities. By apartheid and colonialism I mean aparthed and colonialism, both of which Israel is proven to engage in. They are indeed state institutions there. See, you at least have balls to admit that you are pro-apartheid and pro-colonialism, unlike all these other bitches here.
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Nov 20, 2014 21:04
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My Imaginary GF posted:Solution: Israel is not an 'occupying power.' It's not. It's an colonialist power. They're where they are to stay.
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Nov 20, 2014 21:13
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Baloogan posted:http://electronicintifada.net/content/finnish-israeli-arms-trade-flouts-eu-regulations/8259 I guess if trade means supporting a country, we support a shitload of countries in the world! We don't protect Israel in the UN, we don't send them free money, we don't have a massive demographics driving for alliance with it no matter what. Business is business. We do business with far worse countries then Israel, so does the rest of the EU. You're willfully ignorant of the rest of the post, btw, once again showing what a coward you are
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 21:45
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Baloogan posted:No I just chose not to respond to name calling, you jerk. You clearly don't choose to respond to bunch of other stuff then the name calling. It's not name calling when it is a demonstrable fact either, as your post history reveals nothing but poo poo-and-run  Do you have an actual opinion to defend? An actual viewpoint to argue? No? Not surprised. Like 99% of pro-Israelis in SA, you are a coward.
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Nov 20, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 22:01
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CommieGIR posted:Remember: You are only a real jew if you are white. At least that is how Isreali immigration treats the right of return. It doesn't though. Plenty of black and brown Jews in Israel. It's an ethnoreligious group, with a lot of variation.
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Nov 21, 2014 00:45
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The Insect Court posted:I wasn't sure before, but you seem determined to convince us that your loathing of Israel is just a sort of Freudian projection. Accusing another poster of being a coward for pointing out your unwilling to confront Finnish complicity with Israel kind of seals it. I know harsh introspection can be painful D.C., but you need to come to terms with reality even if it means discarding the delusions you've built up to minimize cognitive dissonance. Again, if trade is complicity, all nations are complicit with...pretty much all nations. United States supports Israel in ways that go above and beyond regular commerce between nations. If you actually get something in return it isn't helping someone. Please explain what about that is delusional. I don't actually believe that Israel acquiring arms is a moral failing on its part, either. I'm even OK with them having nukes
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 01:03
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The Insect Court posted:Interesting. So you obviously don't support BDS, given your liberal stance on trade with Israel. Then you disagree. The fact is, besides exceptions that can be counted with one hand, we engage in trade with everyone, and with countries worse then Israel. Unless you're willing to equate trade with support in those cases too, your point is moot. Buying oil from Saudi Arabia so they can buy more guns isn't any less reprehensible.
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Nov 21, 2014 10:15
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Boycott to me is a personal choice that a person or a country is free to make if they so wish. People boycott things all the time.Xander77 posted:Just out of curiosity, would you smilie face at any other country your people hate? You have an actual reason to hate, let's say... Russia. Would that be a smilie face occasion?
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Nov 21, 2014 15:01
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Xander77 posted:What is the context in which you'd go "we Finns really hate Russians Some shitposter accuses my country of being an Russian ally? Also, I didn't say we hate Israelis as a people either. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:50 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 21, 2014 15:46
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Xander77 posted:But there's an ancient historic brotherhood between our people Well, I mean there is an ancient historic brotherhood between Semitic people and that hasn't stopped them
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Nov 21, 2014 16:01
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Not really. A half-a-hundred things that already exist in law or practice are more serious implications. It's not like Jews learn Arabic or they aren't changing street names or that Arab education is equal to Hebrew in autonomy from the state or that you can study in Arabic in higher education in big state universities or anything. We're talking about an apartheid state. http://m.imgur.com/gallery/L86hXg4 DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Nov 24, 2014 |
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Nov 24, 2014 17:59
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Terrorism isn't the worst thing in the world(tm). Even if the word doesn't apply to Israel, it's just as bad or worse then Hamas by every conceivable metric.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:02
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nopantsjack posted:
Israel was mad socialist from it's inception to...Yom Kippur War at the least? It may be fully capitalist now but it is an colonialist ultranationalist apartheid state which is also antithetical to US values. It's political system doesn't have anything to do with US support because that support is not based on geopolitical, strategic, moral or economic realities, but the blind hypocritical utter lack of morals of particular demographics. Once those demographics die out this conflict ends and support of Israel will just be one of those awful things US (and its pussy allies) did in the past. Two-state or one-state doesn't matter. Israel won't stop settlements until it is forced to, and Palestinians aren't going anywhere.The end result, 100% due to Israel's greed, will be an actual democratic single country and end of the Jewish state. It's just the matter of waiting it out, which is admittedly easier to anybody but the Palestinians, but it's easily going to happen in our lifetime...unless there are some senior citizens among goons ITT. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 13:49
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What will Europe possibly do without an economic giant like Israel?! Just look at its integral position in our trade: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_European_Union emanresu tnuocca posted:http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-officer-shoots-man-allegedly-stabbed-student/story?id=27466488 Well, I mean he did go into a synagogue to stab people, not exactly far-fetched DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 14:43
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Eregos posted:Perhaps the thread can explain this to me. A common charge I hear from anti-Israel activists is that Israel deliberately targets Gaza civilians with airstrikes and shelling as part of some larger strategy to do... what exactly? I don't see any strategic sense behind it from a Machiavellian standpoint, it never really weakens support for Hamas as far as I know and it increases international sympathy for Gaza. The (also Machiavellian) idea that Israel is simply committed to degrading Hamas' capacity, regardless of the civilian cost, seems much more plausible to me. Israel is an colonialist apartheid state. Like all such states, when the population they oppress revolts against them, they kill them as a warning regardless of the aftermath. It doesn't have to have strategic or tactical sense, just to gratify their own sick thirst for punishment. If Israel was operating on long term logic/strategy they would cease settlements at once and withdraw to 1967 lines to retain a Jewish state, right now they're digging their own grave because they operate on racism and greed. Hamas doesn't have the slightest capacity to harm Israel in any meaningful way and Israel would have lost less lives if they had just stood behind the border and not sent any soldiers in. Machiavelli was an actual smart person, if he understood the political realities in this situation, he'd be shaking his head. SedanChair posted:W-what is this An apparent mental breakdown by a known crazy person/actual terrorist supporter. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Dec 10, 2014 |
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Dec 10, 2014 06:07
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"Disloyal", Jesus that is the most entitled country in the world.
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Dec 11, 2014 18:24
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Baloogan posted:Man, the only thing you talk about in this thread is MiGF and the things he talks about. Only thing you talk about in this thread is what other posters talk about. Pot, kettle, shitposting coward, etc. My Imaginary GF posted:You really can't comprehend I/P issues beyond the islamist talking points, can you? You've been numerous times pointed out that the vast majority of places Israel bombed and leveled did not have any weapons systems in them, with accompanying proof. Do you have counteracting proof or do you just choose to not even acknowledge when you're proven wrong?
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Dec 12, 2014 03:28
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