I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

If Israel wanted to, Israel has the ability to genocide all Palestinians. Hamas does not have the ability to genocide all Israelis, and it wants to.

Israel lacks the military capacity nor the diplomatic clout to systemically kill 4 million people. Stop assuming the IDF is competent.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 01:06

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 16, 2024 19:02

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

They have both, for the time the cost is too high.

You misunderstood what I said. Israel can't because their military capabilities are extremely limited. They lack the resources to completely occupy Gaza or invade southern Lebanon. Both Hamas and Hezbollah have the means of preventing Israel from ever entering a protracted engagement and occupation- a prerequisite for any ambitions of genocide.

My Imaginary GF posted:

The continuation of Palestinian attacks enhances the cycle of demonization and creates an outlet for anger on both sides. Israel's leaders are willing to step up and say, "Attacks on holy sites are wrong, no if ands or buts."

I fail to see any Palestinian political organization coming out with such statements.

How many mosques and churches did Israel bomb in the Gaza strip, or did those not count as holy sites?

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 01:31

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

A mosque with a weapons cache is defiled ground, and not a holy site.

And a country with nothing but soldiers and guns is a valid military target. You're just blowing smoke and moving goalposts.

My Imaginary GF posted:

Who needs to occupy, if the situation deteriorates to the point where chemical weapon use is authorized?

What chemical weapons are you talking about? The ones they're not supposed to have?

Dilkington posted:

I'm surprised this is controversial. Considering all the examples we have from history, I thought it was obvious that ethnic cleansing is relatively easy even for modestly organized groups. Israel has a large military and the advantage of short lines of supply.

Anyone who has paid attention to Israel's military adventures since ~2000 knows they were holding back. There is no such thing as a "limited military response" to the IDF.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 01:51

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

e: nvm

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 02:02

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

I agree that individuals should have the right to pray in a respectful and dignified manner at the sites historically considered holy under their established religion, without being seen as improper by others at similar sites. Unfortunately, both sides have been demonized to the point where stated-enforced segregation is becoming a necessity; its a viscious cycle, as segregation begets dehumanization begets terrorism begets extreme retaliation begets segregation.

Is not compatible with:

My Imaginary GF posted:

Use a definition of "oppressive apartheid state" which is narrow enough to not apply to all states in the region yet broad enough to not be reduced to 'because Jews.'

What you just called for in your post was an apartheid state, even if you fail to realize that.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 02:30

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

I don't see how anyone can unironically believe that forced segregation is legitimate means for stability and simultaneously believe Israel is also negotiating in good faith.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 02:38

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Before we go down this rabbit hole: What in particular about Israel is civilian? As I mentioned before, they are a militarized state with a significant part of the population having a military background. Let's ensure it's not the same "they're attacking civilians" bullshit argument used when Hamas uses rockets since the IDF puts military compounds next to hospitals.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 17:10

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

team overhead smash posted:

Someone who is not a member of his or her country's armed forces or who is not taking a direct part of hostilities in an armed conflict. Certain people like medics and religious professionals could also be members of the armed forces without being combatants.

Edit: Also the arguement against rockets is their disproportional casualty rate. It's not a war crime just because some civilians die because that is an unfortunate inevitability in war, it's that they mostly kill civilians. Rockets (although they don't kill many) are about 20 times more likely to kill a civilian than a soldier and combatants are required to make sure that attacks are concentrated against opposing armed forces rather than civilians, hence rockets being a war crime.

Although it's worth noting that this arguement doesn't extend to mortars which are fairly accurate (although have much shorter range) and have mostly caused military deaths. They can be used without inherently being a war crime because although some civilians die they meet the criteria of proportionality in terms of mostly killing combatants. Source for death stats

A good answer and a good post.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 17:23

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Friendly Tumour posted:

Oh the scales of power are definately stacked against Palestinians in this war, no doubt about it. Yet they too engage in with tactics in the same level of moral reprehensibility as their opponents by deliberately targeting civilians and innocent bystanders.

This argument only works within the framework of collective punishment of the Palestinians, which Israel wholly subscrbes to. The Palestinian as a whole operate on different frameworks of legitimacy, and the UN at least recognizes that fact. Nobody should be held accountable for the stabbings except the perpetrators themselves. Israel's vision of perceived racial punishment needs to stop. That is why everyone in this thread thinks this is going to escalate.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 17:47

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

even if you disagree with the opposition, your're going to have a hard time justifying Israel's loving insane judicial system. In no civilized country is bulldozing the houses of suspects acceptable.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:22

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

Its kinda hard to sympathize with indiscriminate rocket attacks and rabbi assassinations, yet folks in this thread find reasons to justify these acts.

There are no justifications. Everyone in the region is poo poo. Israel happens to be slightly less poo poo to Americans than others, so you have widespread American support for Israel.

What I fear, and what I'm sure many fear, is that this intifada is a combination of organized goading and truly random, sporadic attacks. How long will those attacks remain in the ME? Will they spread, and what happens if they do?

None of Hamas' tactics would've been possible if Israel wasn't baited into sporadic shootouts involving the leveling of Gaza every goddamn time. Hamas knows Israel is pushing unsustainable policy. Israel has been digging itself into a foreign policy hole for 30 years. That's what happens when you push for contradictory goals and expect to be taken seriously, as Kerry said.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:30

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Israel doesn't have the luxury of avoiding criticism because they actually have a unified right wing government that pedals the interests of the public that elected them: Likud. You cannot equivocate Hamas to Fatah or the PLO or any other faction in Palestine. Stop pretending that the Palestinians have a unified consensus on Israel. It's so goddamn dishonest. You've been grasping at straws searching for this consensus this whole thread MIGF.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 19:56

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

Number of Israeli imams that are known to have been 'disappeared' by Israel to American torture sites this week:

Yet many here think America cares about something more than its interests and securing business.

How about preventing destabilizing an entire region? First time America intervened on the Israel issue was when they threatened to use nukes. Furthermore , Israel is a toxic asset to anyone wants positive foreign policy. The Obama Administration knows that

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 20:05

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

CommieGIR posted:

You brought up nukes. MIGF will now tell you about his wonderful plan to nuke Iran

Iran? Where's Cefte when you need him?

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 20:09

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

MIGF what plausible reasons would Israel be allowed to deploy nuclear weapons and/or biological warfare?

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 20:23

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Even if Hamas didn't do it, Bibi is going to make no effort in making the distinction and blame them anyway.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 21:24

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Does anyone want to bother making that distinction? What constitutes a crime and what constitutes a terrorist attack in Israel? The Israeli government sure loving doesn't.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 21:43

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

JeffersonClay posted:

So you agree that: 1) Hamas has a strategy of deliberate provocation to accelerate the conflict, 2) Hamas praised the attack as resistance to the occupation and 3) Hamas encourages more attacks of similar character. Does it matter what the individual motives of the attackers were? As analogy, if the US government encouraged settlers to flood into Oklahoma and displace (again) native Americans in order to perpetrate genocide, but all the settlers were motivated solely by a desire to farm land, does that somehow mitigate the genocidal intent of the leadership?

Genocidal intent is misleading in a sense that it trivializes the motives of any of the anti-occupation organizations. Hamas and Hezbollah are long established political organizations, not just a group of rowdy terrorists, that have very well defined short and long term goals- not just "kill all Jews". As I pointed out earlier, Hamas has been playing Israel pretty hard with their collective punishment card.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 21:48

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

The Insect Court posted:

Does this mean you're adopting the Job Truniht position that every Jewish Israeli is a legitimate and non-civilian target?

For someone who doesn't want to justify the murder of innocent people, you sure seem enthusiastic to do just that.

Don't misunderstand. I asked a question in which someone gave a good answer that I agreed with. He made good definitions of what a combatant and what a non-combatant were in Israel, so we could roll with that in future discussion and avoid the nonsense.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 21:52

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Suicide bomber tactics are so 20 years ago. It tells you a little about the age of people making the claim.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 21:56

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

The Insect Court posted:

Please do try to calm down, C.G. I'm not accusing you(or any other particular individual) of being an anti-semite. I'm just saying that the hatred directed towards Israel and Jewish Israelis is so disproportionate and so personal that I want to understand the motivations behind it. Why do some posters insist that Israelis are unfeeling, bloodthirsty monsters?

Do you operate in a vacuum or something? A lot of people in this thread believe, rightfully, that Bibi and his sycophant cabinet represent the general will of the Israeli public. If you want to ignore right wing extremism in Israel, let's pretend that Rabin never got assassinated and, if he did, it was by an Arab. It's not a question on whether or not the Israeli people and their government should be held accountable, but how much they should be held accountable.

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 22:44

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

The Insect Court posted:

I think I see. What you seem to be saying is that what's behind the hatred is the belief that instead of people holding a wide and diverse range of opinions on a variety of issues, Jewish Israelis are a sort of monolithic hivemind definitely exclusively by their persecution of the Palestinians? And that they all bear collective guilt for the crimes committed against Palestinians, and so all Jewish Israelis should be held "accountable" and the only question is what degree of accountability should be meted out(boycott, international court, rockets, hatchets, etc.) Was the recent occurrence in that synagogue in Jerusalem an example of accountability(even if a somewhat overzealous one)?

I think that's another way to describe institutional racism. Does Zionists hold the same views on race? Absolutely.

I don't think Jewish Israelis accidentally elected a government that supports settlement expansion and strongman bullshit every time a drop of blood spills on the street while simultaneously pissing away any chance at a peace process. I know you're not that interested in holding Israel accountable for just about everything, but the US State Department nor the White House view it that way. Even if you ignore the concept that there might be repercussions for anything Israel ever does, Israel is well on its way to become a failed state economically, ideologically, and militarily. They hold the highest military spending as a % of GDP and income inequality of any OECD country.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 01:22

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Kim Jong Il posted:

No, they just reflexively turn to right wing morons when they're terrified of being killed like, I don't know, everyone in every society ever? Like Hamas on the other side, or Americans after 9/11?

I can't equivocate Hamas to the Likud government. Their influence only extends so far into the West Bank. And Israelis have made every effort to prevent a unified government body for Palestine from ever happening. The PA has the advantage of arguing that they're separate and distinct mouthpiece from Hamas every time they visit the UN. Bibi doesn't have that luxury. He never did.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 04:41

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

The Insect Court posted:

What proportion of Jewish Israelis do you consider (morally akin to) rapists? All of them who don't share your opinion on Israel? Can you be a little more concrete as to what portions of the Israeli public may be killed by Palestinian terrorists without moral censure?

The Israeli settlers in the West Bank.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 05:23

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Morals have nothing to do do with my policitics *calls for forced segregation*

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 20:06

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

My point. Morality is constantly in flux and is used as an ex post facto justification of policy implementation. Morality helps your policy after its implemented; it does little towards getting it implemented in the first place.

Your argument for segregation was a ex post facto justification. It's nothing but feel good bullshit used to say that Israeli citizens would feel safer because the Palestinians are no longer going to cause problems. It's just standard procedure for Israelis to ignore any systemic problems with their government and rely on the IDF fixing their problems when things blow up inevitably.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 20:36

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

No one is going to believe your claim that the Israeli government is amoral, MIGF. The Israeli government is deeply religious and very socially conservative.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 20:45

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

Solution: Israel is not an 'occupying power.'

IDF wasn't occupying Gaza or Lebanon. They were just there on vacation.

I like how someone can arbitrarily define whether or not Palestine is a state whenever convenient. Israel sure as hell never recognized their sovereignty. See: Them ordering to forcibly disarm their standing army.

My Imaginary GF posted:

For too many in this world, "stopping the occupation" means "ceasing to exist as a nation."

Israel will only cease to exist should they continue unsustainable policy. Your end games you've mentioned in this thread are:

1) Entertain the idea genocide of Palestinians.
2) Entertain the idea of forced segregation.

When the Romans began the diaspora, did the Jews simply cease to exist? No. It did create centuries of ethnic strife, though.

Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Nov 20, 2014

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 21:14

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

MIGF I would appreciate it if you responded to my posts.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 21:23

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Romans have a strong historical claim to Israeli land. We should give it to the Vatican.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 21:36

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Crowsbeak posted:

Wasn't that Tom Clanceys solution to the conflict?

I have seen worse ideas tbqh.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 21:49

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

Unfortunately, this requires leadership of the like which Palestinians haven't ever seen. A good first step would have been for Hamas to condemn the synagogue attack in Jerusalem--now that would have demonstrated that the organization has leadership with ambition greater than pure genocidal intent.

Ambition greater than pure genocidal intent? What in the absolute gently caress are you rambling about?

# ¿ Nov 22, 2014 05:12

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Ghost of Reagan Past posted:

Realpolitik is just a classy way of saying "might makes right." Thrasymachus would be proud.

How did this ever become a word that meant the opposite of what it originally meant? Realpolitik was the pursuit of unrealistic goals and insane foreign policy leaps that led to Bismarck getting the axe.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2014 06:42

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

My Imaginary GF posted:

You realize "expel all lobbies associated with foreign countries" is related to historical policies of, "expel all the Jews," don't you?

I agree. All lobbies should be expelled equally because they're all universally bad.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2014 07:34

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

What do the Israelis hope for by re-electing this guy? Like, specifically, what are they hoping to accomplish other than bring more IDF home in bodybags?

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 02:00

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Ah yes, the rocket attacks. Which attacks? The one last summer, one of many over the last 20 years in the ongoing shitfest between Israel, Lebanon, Syria, and Palestine. That was the definite point where we decided there weren't to be any more negotiations. MIGF you are such a disenginuous piece of poo poo.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 21:52

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Hamas should give up shooting IDF soldiers and instead play tag with them and watch IDF kill their own because Hannibal Protocol.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2015 22:47

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Yes it's terrible, actually quite the landslide victory - real time updates here: http://www.votes20.gov.il/nationalresults

67.7% tallied, 24.12% in favor of Likud, 19.3% Herzog, that's an 8 seat advantage for Netanyahu. only 8.6% to the joint list.

gently caress this poo poo.

Would anyone care to explain the voter mentality as to why people keep voting in this specific coalition and thinking it'll work? Should outsiders interpret this as tacit consent for a no-two state solution scenario?

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 05:38

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

Volkerball posted:

We could have Khamenei living in a rathole in a matter of days easily. Just because an occupation based around making GBS threads on the locals didn't pan out so well over a decade doesn't mean anyone standing up against us militarily wouldn't be a fly on the windshield.

For starters, Iran has over double the population Iraq does. Even with a draft it would still be wishful thinking to believe we can successfully occupy a country of that size consecutively for five to ten years and disarm it.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 18:40

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 16, 2024 19:02

Job Truniht: Nov 7, 2012; MY POSTS ARE REAL RETARDED, SIR

corn in the bible posted:

nobody else wants to occupy iran

Who is "nobody else"?

# ¿ Mar 18, 2015 20:01

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

«‹›2 »