I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Welcome to the Diane Rehm show.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2015 17:27

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 04:26

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Main Paineframe posted:

It's like every anti-gun-rights-for-self-defense argument condensed down into a single tragic incident. An armed person being attacked, having his assault rifle taken and used to fire into the crowd, and a nearby would-be hero mistaking someone else for the attacker and shooting the wrong person (who, totally coincidentally I'm sure, was a minority) as a result.

It definitely happened, but there is as yet no evidence that it was an organized, intentional policy, or that the government was directly involved in it in any way or even aware of it. We'll likely never know for sure since the investigation is about as transparent as a brick wall and has essentially vanished from the media, but rather than an intentional policy of sterilization, it seems more likely to have been an overzealous family planning services program in the transit camps combined with an unfortunate series of miscommunications, compounded to a ridiculous extent by language barriers, insufficient health services and support to Ethiopian Jews once they enter Israel, insufficient availability of translation services, inattentive doctors in Israel unable or unwilling to talk at length to the Ethiopian patients, and possible low-level misconduct on the part of the transit camp doctors. Rather than a malicious intentional program, it was most likely a terrible mistake that no one is ever going to admit to because it's super embarrassing and highlights major insufficiencies at every level of dealing with Ethiopian immigrants.

No, it didn't. It was a temporary birth control drug that lasted three months and wore off with no long-term effects to fertility if not re-administered. No one was rendered permanently sterile, and given that the drug had to be re-administered by a doctor every three months to remain effective, it would have been an incredibly ineffective method of permanent sterilization, which would have required the active cooperation of literally every single doctor in Israel to maintain as a permanent policy.

The first part of your post references something that's on video, where we can see a mob of people murder an Eritrean man while chanting Death to Arabs, and you don't think that the secretive administration of long acting birth control (that has also been shown to have significant, permanent side effects, in particular a severe impact on bone density) to a particular ethnic group maybe might have been a little racist?

# ¿ Oct 19, 2015 15:46

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Even avoiding the undeniable abuse of being subjected to military checkpoints because of your race, this is the first non-wikipedia link from googling "Palestinians abused at checkpoint"

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/four-israeli-border-policemen-convicted-of-abusing-young-palestinian-boy-at-checkpoint.premium-1.503581

Here's another article that popped up:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18597-2004Nov28.html

There's no humane or moral way for these checkpoints to exist. They have a specific purpose - to subjugate and subdue people because of their race and ethnicity.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 18:13

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

emanresu tnuocca posted:

Yet you've erected far more massive shrines to the skull god than Israel ever did. And while I think that Assad is a genocider I don't see this rhetoric appear almost anywhere.

Yet I do see people accuse ISIS of genocide even though their death toll is much lower. Perhaps this has something to do with ISIS genuinely attempting to rape and kill an entire ethnic/cultural group while all of the previously mentioned actors don't seemingly have such an intention.

What Israel is doing is horrible and has to end because it will eventually escalate into either a full regional war or indeed into actual genocide, when that happens we'll all know cause there will be hundreds of thousands of dead people.

Anyway, again, let's refrain from having a discussion based on something quite as meaningless as my opinion. An extraordinary claim was made, the burden of proof is not on me.

What is the specific definition of genocide that you are using?

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 18:37

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

FreshlyShaven posted:

I know this whole "Israel=Nazi?" question is kind of a shitstorm of a topic, but here goes my 2 cents anyway.

I think one point that's important to underline is the ways in which Israel and her political allies abroad have used the Holocaust not only to justify illegal, brutal and jingoistic actions like the invasion of Lebanon in 82 but also the moral legitimacy of the state itself(and by extension the Nakba). Look at the way for instance that Yad Vashem is built barely a mile away from the site of the Deir Yassin massacre and how the exhibit ends on a triumphant note with the establishment of Israel at the expense of roughly a million ethnically cleansed Palestinians. The message is clear: the Holocaust justifies what we did to the Palestinians. I think that if Israel uses the Holocaust in such a way, it's perfectly acceptable to politicize the Holocaust in order to point out how immoral and abject Israel's behavior has been. Whether doing so is a mistake in terms of tactic is of course a completely separate matter.

Secondly, what exactly are we talking about when we compare Israel to Nazi Germany? Has Israel done anything close in magnitude to the enormity of the Holocaust? No, of course not. But then again, neither had the Nazis of the early 30s. And I think there's a lot more of a sustained comparison to be made between the current rightward trend in Israel and the rightward trend in 1930s Germany. There's a continued, violent assault on the Israeli left and center. It's not just the persecution and repression of Arab politicians and political parties(which is nothing new), but it's now reaching even the once-prestigious liberal-Zionist sphere. Look at the campaign of violent intimidation against even centrist human rights organizations like the New Israel Fund or the way that hundreds of even Jewish intellectuals have had to flee Israel for Europe or America as a result of the reigning and constantly worsening anti-democratic and anti-intellectual fervor. The right wing has pledged to both purge the judiciary of disloyal(read: non-reactionary) elements and to block its ability to overturn laws on the grounds of human rights or democratic ideals. It's a country that has passed law after law targeting dissidents and minorities for persecution. This is a country where it's not uncommon to see gangs of skinheads marching down the streets shouting "Death to Arabs! Death to leftists!" as the police look on nonchalantly, where non-Jews are referred to as "infiltrators" or "demographic threats" by their own government, where Knesset ministers can, with impunity, work a crowd of neo-Nazis into a frenzy with a speech including the line "This is a white man's country" and then watch with a satisfied grin as the crowd of skinheads goes on to attack African-owned businesses and beat up any Africans they encounter. Even committed Zionists are starting to see the parallels between today's Israel and the growth of hatred, jingoism, paranoia and violence that characterized the run-up to the Nazis' seizing of power. And while Israel has not yet done anything nearly as bad in scope as the Holocaust, it's not an impossibility. What happens when Bennett or Lieberman or worse is PM and Israel is no longer satisfied with a low-grade campaign of oppression punctuated by the occasional 4-figure massacre and starts killing Palestinians by the tens or hundreds of thousands?

Edit:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/29/israel
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18597-2004Nov28.html

Or just read some of Gideon Levy's dispatches from the OT.

I think that this post sums it up pretty well. Including the shitstorm part.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 18:42

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

I'm not sure what the intent could be in regards to the people of Gaza other than to destroy them.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 19:54

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

emanresu tnuocca posted:

It's called 'mowing the lawn' and not 'pouring gasoline over the lawn and salting the scorched earth afterwards' for a reason.

Netanyahu and Olmert before him ascribe to what's referred to in Israel as the 'managing the conflict' doctrine, this posits that Israel gains more in the long run by procrastinating and not negotiating with the Palestinians and instead using the IDF to put the boot down on any insurgency while blaming the whole thing on Palestinian terrorism, the massacres in Gaza are borne out of this philosophy, it's largely a punitive measure intended to buy a temporary truce. After the disengagement Gaza has just become an inconvenience, Israel has no actual territorial ambitions concerning the strip itself, the only thing that Israel cares about is just building as many settlements as possible and carving the west bank into even thinner slices so that if/when it is ultimately forced to withdraw from the west bank (or does so of its own volition) it will have a good claim for annexing areas with a jewish settler majority.

The destruction of a people, in part or in whole. Intending to only annihilate 'some' of the people in Gaza is still genocide.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 21:00

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

What is the end result of the current policies and actions against the people of Gaza other than eradication? They might last 100 years, but I don't think that going slowly makes it any more moral or less genocidal.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 22:26

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

Main Paineframe posted:

To force Hamas out of power by inflicting collective punishment against the population in hopes that they will respond to poor living conditions by rising up against Hamas. If Hamas were removed from power and replaced by a peaceful faction willing to cooperate with Israel, and the violent factions were cracked down on by the new government, it's safe to say that the oppression of Gaza would quickly be drawn down, approaching West Bank levels within 10 years.

I don't think that that is safe to say, but even if it is - it still doesn't provide a moral or valid reason to engage in the systematic eradication of the people of Gaza. What's happening right now is still genocide even if you pretend that it will end once the Israeli Government gets its way.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I bet by "you people" you mean Jews because you're an antisemite.

While we're in "we are all Catholic married to our hyperbole and will not let this thread go on without it" mode, that is.

I think that that was a pretty valid point and I'd like to hear a real answer, instead of intentionally avoiding it by being snarky.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 22:43

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 04:26

captainblastum: Dec 1, 2004

It seemed clear to me that that comment was referring to specific posters in this thread, but I'll let them clarify if they want to, or not if they don't.

# ¿ Nov 5, 2015 22:51

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