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CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

Like yeah theoretically they could design maps to take into account light tanks being dedicated scouts, have good risk/reward zones on the map lanes, have one dedicated heavy-brawl lane in case a team's light tank is afk or whatever. That isn't going to happen. They couldn't even loving redesign Mines without making the north spawn even more advantaged by reducing the south's sniping spots and removing all the drat bushes looking at the north spawn off the center hill, do you really think they could make a map that doesn't just end in a draw 50% of the time due to nobody ever being able to aggressively spot?

They can't even get the game to do automatic 6th sense yet. That was planned what, 2 or 3 years ago now?

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CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

Autoloaders are a broken game mechanic and it isn't fixable because burst damage is too important. Yeah it's dumb that you can't fire once in the 50B and then just take a 10s reload, but the Italian line shows you just can't allow autoloaders to have both burst potential and even mediocre sustained damage, because World of Tanks as a concept cannot handle it.

Theoretically if the entire game was different, where a medium tank with an Italian autoloader had to move into the sides of enemy vehicles to be able to reliably pen, that would maybe make that concept balanced where if you can maneuver around enemies and plink away with single shots and then move in close to finish, and if you can't get a decent vulnerable side you have to just reposition, there's some trade-off, but that's not a game that exists and also Armored Warfare tried heavily armored vehicles being able to shrug off smaller guns and it was terrible.

Like many problems in WoT, its because of gold ammo. Having weaker gun handling and lower pen was probably supposed to be the trade off in using an autoloader. Like the old 13 90, I think the F3 gun had something like 170mm of pen and saw up to tier 10's. You could generally deal with equal tier mediums from the front, but heavies were off limits except a flat side shot or from the rear.

There are really a ton of issues why the autoloaders break things in the game. They were too strong when they worked great, and too weak when they didn't. Everyone who played a AMX 50 100 probably had 3 rounds from a drum slam into the ground and then died to a 10% health tank that now had a minute to murder you. Or had all 6 shots go perfectly and simply delete a equal tier tank from the game.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:

T-34-85M in a Tier IV battle. Yah.

Not to shoot you down or anything but not even half of those 15 enemy vehicles were close to being a real threat to that magic OP Stalinium fuckwagon you were driving, and that's before you factor how loving terribad the average pubbie is (I mean just look at the rest of your team!).

Still, well done an' that. Someone had to carry.

Even against tanks that don't really pose a threat, if there are enough of them, luck can run out. Driving the MiniMaus back in the day, even if most of the enemy team was useless, all it took was one rear end in a top hat in a Pz2 shooting HE at you to somehow kill both crew members.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

ZogrimAteMyHamster posted:

True enough I suppose. I'm just more than a little salty that someone gets to have all the fun wreaking havoc as a top-tier 85M, when all I ever get is the rear end-dangling side of WG's sweaty 3/5/7 ballbag in my face while I have to go out and find Skorpion G and Defender combos on the occasions that I take my own 85M for a spin (or just being diddled by the MM in general whenever I take anything out of the garage).

loving dumb poo poo asshat game.

I hear you. My best game was in a KV-220 where more then half the enemy team was incapable of damaging me. The ones that could died early, and one of the last capable were spgs and they could only do like 50 on a direct hit. But that was one game in that, most were unremarkable or me being dunked on from a tier 6 that could ignore its armor. The 3/5/7 is now worse.
Actually thinking about, best game was pre+2/-2 mm and I had my T-54 vs a ton of tier 6 tanks that didn’t have gold rounds. I only died because I got stuck on a enemy Super Pershing. Still took like 7 people with me.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Katamari Democracy posted:

That Hopper guy on Discord is me by the way. That is possibly the best way to get a hold of me.

E- Also I am open to ideas on a decent T6 TD. I have been looking at the SU-100Y to get started but I am open to suggestions.


There aren't any good premium tier 6 TDs. The two that are available have some neat gimmicks, but none of them are worthy buying.
The Dicker Max has a few things going for it. A pretty good gun, 300 damage isn't bad, pen is ok. And it has crazy gun depression, so you can do some fun stuff involving hills. It also has good view range, for hiding in the back. The bad, its slow and has poor armor, plus the gun doesn't handle moving well. The Nashorn is a better TD in the all the ways it matters.
The SU-100Y can be fun. It is basically a KV that has a light cruiser gun dropped on top of it. It has a regular shell that does 440 damage with 196mm of pen, or a premium shell that does more damage but less pen. It can be spotted from orbit and there is no reason to hide on the back line. It has KV hull armor, but the barn on top has very little armor. The gun has a reload of 15s and isn't accurate.
BUT: It can two shot anything at its tier. It can one shot a significant number of tier 5s. It is like playing a KV-2 that is semi-accurate without the HE dice roll.
It is a bad loving tank and you shouldn't get it, but it is a hilarious tank to use if you know what you are doing, and can deal with its oddities. Don't buy it. Yet.

If you must buy a premium TD, get a SU-122-44. It is an assault gun that delivers 122mm shells at someone every 7 seconds. You drive right up into someone's stupid face and vomit shells into them. Then you move on the the next.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Katamari Democracy posted:

Noted.

As for the options you listed I might not be ready for that tier just yet. But I will keep in mind next month. :) I think I need to toy around with the lower tier TD from USA like this post suggested:


Tier 6 has dire premium TDs, but some of the best normal TDs.

Best TD early on the in the game is the Hetzer at tier 4. You stick the 105mm gun on it and load HE.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

McGavin posted:

I'm not having a meltdown, you're just not the first person I've seen spell it like that and I'm genuinely confused as to why people persistently put an N there.

Probably habit and having words that end in ent being more common then et. I know I’ve done that before.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
The SU-122-44 is one of the few tanks that would actively get me hate messages after a game. The other is the E-25.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
Alright I'm back!

I got my T-50-2, played a few games and then uninstalled. Mission accomplished.

The game looks so good now, its really striking. The downside is, they haven't fixed poo poo about anything else. 6th Sense still isn't baseline and still has the delay.
Firing a gun is still a fun mystery in what will happen regardless of tank movement. I snap shot a chinese light with my KV-2 while both of us were moving and one shot him. Later on I had a circle enclose 80% of a enemy tank the and the shot dove into the dirt.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

The reason lower tiers aren't populated is because of Wargaming's lovely decisions that make being a new player awful, and because being a tier 4 in a tier 6 game is awful, and being a tier 5 in a tier 7 game is awful, and being a tier 6 in a tier 8 game is awful, etc. They'd be fine if they switched to same-tier matchmaking as a primary preference years ago, and maybe didn't put maps in at tier 1 and 2 that make playing a new account feel horrible, maybe put in maps that don't rely on spotting distance at all instead of relying entirely on spotting distance which a new player cannot possibly understand and also cannot contribute to with a fresh crew and no equipment.

My big three things to save WoT:
+1/-1 Matchmaker for all tanks. A 2 tier gap is too huge. A tier 5 with 500 health shouldn't see a Tiger with 1500. Not only that, a Tiger is capable of 2 shotting a Sherman with a high roll. This problem only gets worse as the tier increases.

Limit arty to 1 per side. Getting shot my arty has never been fun, and will never be an engaging mechanic. I'd remove it entirely if I had the choice, but this lets them have something. Arty also lowers the fun of the game on an exponential curve the more there are.

Remove gold ammo being always better, or just remove it. With a +1/-1 system, you don't need it anyway, but maybe turn ammo into a choice instead of pressing 2 when you see more armor then planned. APCR has more pen but less damage, HEAT has more consistent pen across distance, but can't handle spaced armor and so on.
-----

Other thing:
Reduce tank crews to a single object, you earn XP which is used to unlock things on skill tree. Sixth sense is built in now because what the gently caress, why is this still a thing. Also tank crews are always 100%. Additional skills have a penalty for a bit while retraining crew.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

PC WoT nerfed some tier 7ish tank years back which A) wasn't good and B) was much worse than several other tanks of the same tier. They gave the same "stats show it's overperforming" reason. It wasn't when the IS-2 and 110 got heavily hit as splash damage for the overall gold ammo nerf, it was a specific targeting of a mediocre vehicle because the playerbase is garbage and it makes stats-based balancing worthless.

What tank am I thinking of? Black Prince maybe?


That seems like the BP to me. That is a tank that shouldn't work, and frequently doesn't. But when it does work dear it really goes for it.
The BP has everything going wrong for it, bad mobility, bad armor, a DPM gun in a burst game and its a huge arty magnet. But by god I had some games that really worked in it. Like people would just sit there and bounce shots off the front.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

I started playing with +2/-2 matchmaking, just before physics came out. It used to be tier 4 was hell tier, since there were so many shitcans like the tier 4 lights that saw tier 8s (lol m5 stuart) but were horrible even against other tier 4s, then those slowly got buffed and replaced with actual Good Tanks that there wasn't really a hell-tier, only a bunch of horrible tanks going up against new tanks that they couldn't compete with, like the pre-buff Tiger versus its competitors at tier, but then a bunch of tanks got buffed and they changed the matchmaker and they added a ton of truly ludicrously overpowered premium tanks and tier 8 is a hellhole that can never recover without +0/-0 matchmaking and an all-encompassing balance pass by a group of people who want to make a Good Game instead of making lots of money of an increasingly frustrated and swiftly dwindling playerbase.


but drat do they make a lot of money

e: not gonna lie i kinda want to play since apparently you can make credits now and i would like to play a version of world of tanks that wasn't destroyed by capitalist entropy, so uh Mesadoram or Primelaw could one of you post a heartbreaking after battle report or something


In a way, I sometimes miss the original matchmaking, where it was tiers 1-2, 2-3, and then gently caress you, 4-10. Thats right fuckos, bring that tier 4 T-28 garbage barn and face down a King Tiger.
But, it did have one good thing. If you had the KV-1 with the KV-2 turret and 152, you could loving poo poo on anyone you saw. I blasted a IS-7 in the side with HE, did 500 damage broke everything and set him on fire.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

Some of the context is kind of lost nowadays. For newer players - the T57 Heavy was ludicrously, ridiculously overpowered when it first was released. Not as much as the WT100, but there were a hell of a lot less tier 10s than there are now, and the AMX 50B was kind of garbo and the 50 120 had major playability issues. By contrast, the T54E1 and T57 were among the best tanks at their tier, and this was shortly after you could buy gold ammo for credits but before the HEAT ammo nerfs, so you got to slam super high pen shells into everything forever. Hell the T69 was fine with the original gold ammo shell allowing it to reliably pen. Also, -G- was at the height of their skill and fame, and Xpedience was....well known, let's say. In that current environment, Xpedience took his tank to a stupid spot, did literally zero damage, fired 2 of his 4 shells, and died to a Lowe who hit him, reloaded, and finished him. That's a huge punt and drat is that video funny.


The T69 was simply incredible before the HEAT nerf, provided you hated money. You had 300mm of pen on a tier 8 medium with a 4 round autoloader. About the only thing it had problems with were heavy sloped tanks.

Speaking of -G-, watching Garbad lose his loving mind in a game if someone killed him was always amazing, even better if it was a SPG. That little goober would spend the rest of the match screaming into the void.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Katamari Democracy posted:

I have got to see this. Got a link? I don't know who this guy is but I enjoy watching people freak out in this game.


I don't, I forgot to back up screenshots when I rage deleted the game a few rage deletions ago.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

BIG HEADLINE posted:

The T54E1 was good back when autoloaders were still new. Honestly, what they *should* do for all the older autoloaders is retrofit them with the Italian autoloader mechanic.

Yep. Autoloaders worked really well when even more people had no idea how to deal with them, and before WG took the nerf bat to most of them. Way too many people didn't realize that a T54E1 could do about 1500 damage to them in under 10 seconds. Provided it didn't plant one shell into the dirt for no goddamn reason at least. I had some fantastic games in it, but I had to shoot a lot of premium rounds to do so.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

nacirema posted:

This game is so dumb. It is as if war gaming intentionally made the game to be infuriating.

What is amazing is they constantly meet their goals at making it worse.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Atomizer posted:

Actually, XVM is a collection of interface mods, some of which have been incorporated into the main client (e.g. minimap enhancements) due to their usefulness. It's the stats portion that's controversial.

The problem with XVM is they stuck the stats mod into the main one that gave the game a usable UI. If they had left it out, this game would have been less toxic. Everyone who wanted some semi-handy UI improvements also got to see just how goddamn terrible people are at this game, and it frankly ruined things.
I'm not saying that the mod ruined things all by itself, but it sure helped the playerbase against each other.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

so wot classic would be after artillery lines got stretched out, right? No tier 6 hummels one and two shotting tier tens?


From looking at the site, its stops at tier 8.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
This is pretty unplayable on the US servers, the lag is super bad. So that means buy the Pz38H and laugh at people.
Also, goddamn that old time matchmaking. loving tier 5s running into a ISU is priceless.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
It was very on brand for Wargaming to bring back up 0.7.0 for a weekend and gently caress it up to the point it was unplayable. We brought back this neat mode from the past! But put it on the test servers so the lag is unbearable, also its broken.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

alternately, just spray your shots off even at 500m on the move while turning both hull and turret and watch in amazement as you dunk some poor bastard for 900 damage in your T49 with a shot you'd never hit in a million years if you'd aimed


60% of the time, snap shotting works all of the time.

Cross map shot with a KV-2? Hell yea. Zoomed in shot on a tank 100m away giving a broadside? That shell is hitting the dirt.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

I appreciate that console WOT has just turned the dumb dial up to 11 and called it good.
But uhh..
"A shot from the Dreadnought KV-2’s quick-aiming gun offers excellent penetrating power combined with a fast firing-rate, making it ideal for suppressing or harassing your way to victory. "

152 mm ML-20SM
rate of fire
2.61rounds/min
damage
700/700/910hp
penetration
175/250/86mm
reload time
23sec
aiming time
2.86sec

I'm not sure a 23s reload counts as fast.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

700 alpha 250 pen at tier 7

on a turreted tank


I mean yea. I'm just saying a 23s reload isn't fast.

I'd buy the poo poo out of this tank if it was on PC though, because goddamn would it be hilarious.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
I don't think they ever figured out how to make autocannon shells not stupidly expensive. A few bursts of premium from a Pz1C costs more then the tank does.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Katamari Democracy posted:

I do not want to defend wargaming in any way but actually currently watching the video and as someone who is studying CCNA I would maybe like to maybe share what I am seeing. This isn't someone who is certified so take this with a grain of salt.

What I would have loved to see was not only the latency timing from the client itself but also his discord and the amount of traffic going to his "Hops". Not only this but from his partner as well. I do not doubt for a minute that wargaming might do this to tip certain players over the edge but if you really want to broaden the scope we do need to see latency data from as many sides as possible comparing to each host on the network.

But it is good that we are seeing data from other perspectives. So now I am gonna continue the video and continue with this post: Swearing on your balls does not match up with someone who wants to troubleshoot the issue. :)

I kinda skimmed over the rest but it seems he is basically comparing the same data he has in multiple situations. Honestly if you want to have a shadow of a doubt in knowing this is a wargaming poo poo issue have a couple of his buddies who also plays in the same household with the same network as him (Don't worry WoT does not eat up bandwith unless its downloading an update) and try that same expiriment again. With the same PC's each person has all in the same network connected to the same ISP as Skill.

any networking goons feel free to completely own me if I missed something.

Sure, you would need to do a lot more testing to really nail this down. But as a "handful of dudes trying things" it gets the point across. If someone was behind a lovely ISP, you would hear more issues with their voice comms, as voice gets hit by latency and packet loss is much more noticeable with voice.
What stood out to me is the one guy firing, traversing his turret, and then it firing a second later. If you were getting >1s latency, you'd feel it on everything, not just firing. All of them reported movement was fine, just firing was off.
It could be packetloss to the server, but then you'd see some rubberbanding from packets being out of order and the server having to correct movement.
To really nail this down, they'd need to get everyone to record a stream and try to setup timestamps on their end, and then sync all of it. Is one guy getting 50ms more to the discord server leaving his voice track behind? Does someone just have bad reflexes? Or, they could trade account info and seem if things are consistent, although I'd be worried about doing that while WGing is focused on your account at the moment.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

primelaw posted:

So uh I got an email from Wargaming stating if I play a game I get a free clownshoe



Well alrighty then

I got that, along with a 50 day rental of the Progetto and the Rhinemetal Scorpion. Guess its time to see a Mutant.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
Tried a couple games last night because I'm a goddamn idiot.
The Mutant: is ok I guess? Its a giant M6 with a T29 gun facing things that don't give a gently caress that it has good front armor. Also holy christ what an arty magnet.
Progetto: I really like this tank, the autoloading mechanic is interesting, it handles well, shoots well and is just fun to use. It feels like the Pershing used to be, but can actually do damage.
Rhm Skorpion: Its a fast Rhoomba that is a bit awkward to use, but loving dunks on people. I pushed too far ahead because I wanted to be done for the night, but its a quality tank.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Lazyhound posted:

I logged in like three days before they started doing this.

Never log in.

I have already safely uninstalled again.

I still can't understand how Sixth Sense isn't a default feature yet. Its been how many years now?

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Katamari Democracy posted:

Had a few games in the Churchill III and I apologize for saying the KV-220-2 was my pick over that tank any day. Moved my best trained crew into it with platoons tonight with goons. lol

The KV-220-2 is good when its top tier because there is a good chance that a bunch of people can't damage you. At all.
The downside is, if you aren't top tier, you can't damage other tanks.

The ChurchIII gives no fucks and drives right at things while holding LMB.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
I demand a KV-2-2.

T-50-2-2. Luchs-2.

gently caress it, everything gets a 2 gun version.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost
The only way they could clean up the legacy poo poo holding this game back is to make a WoT2 and start fresh.
Problem is, no one would play it unless they could bring all the vehicles over from 1, and if they did, they wouldn't need to give them money since they have all the vehicles.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Hellsau posted:

nice try wargaming, but saying my best battle was literally five years ago ain't gonna make me want to play any more

I would love to get that.
It would be "Hey, remember how we released the KV-220 and if all the dice came up right, your idiot team would die extremely fast while somehow killing the only enemy vehicle capable of damaging you? Then enemy tanks wandered up to you in groups of 2-3 and sat in front of your gun bouncing autocannon rounds off your hull?
Well, we remember too, come on back and have games that are nowhere near as fun."

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Katamari Democracy posted:

Premium Hellcat at tier 7. Canon fodder with its samey stats as the regular hellcat.

Wow, its a whole .5s faster reload and a touch more health. What a fantastic gift tank.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Fat Jesus posted:

why can't the M3 Lee fire both guns, think of what a fine tank it would be

That feature is any day now. Any day.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Control Volume posted:

Anyone remember when the T-44 was good because no one could hit a moving target further than spitting distance?

Anything past 300m or so would just teleport if it was moving across the screen. The T-44 had something going for it with its speed that made the issue worse.

I have a bunch of screen shots from early game, and goddam what a mess it was. Especially looking at the old matchmaking for tiers. I know really early on, it was something like 1-2, 2-4, 3-5, 4-7, 5-10. Later on, they made it so 5s could only see up to 8s and 7s up to 10. Except light tanks and SPGs. For reasons, this included tanks like the A-20 or M5 Stuart, both of which had guns that not only could hurt anything above their tier, couldn't spot anything either.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Bulky Bartokomous posted:

Is the black prince at all cool/playable? I have enough free xp to just skip it.

I wouldn't skip it. The Black Prince is an objectively bad thank by almost every metric, its slow, its armor is inconsistent, the gun is bad. Yet, people do really well with it. I think I had something like a 60% winrate in it. It shouldn't work, but it does, and no one is sure how.

I'd play it, and save the XP for making the Caern not be stock, because you do not want a tier 8 heavy tank with a 17-pdr gun.

CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

McGavin posted:

This update hosed the A-20 the most. It already had a lovely gun for its tier and then it got uptiered without any improvements.


The A-20 being hosed over is a grand tradition of this game.

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CitizenKain
May 27, 2001

That was Gary Cooper, asshole.

Nap Ghost

Slaapaav posted:

ive been playing the pershing some with a fresh crew and its better than on paper. on paper its a horrible tank. the numbers on the gun handling dont really add up there has to be some hidden stuff because its way more accurate than it should be?

The the US tank lines true power, tanks that work better then they should. It used to feel like the RNG for them is tweaked just a bit in the positive direction. Not enough to always make a difference, but there for clutch shots. I had some games in my Pershing and Patton that if I was in any other tank would have been a loss, but some magic bullshit happened.
The Black Prince also posses this power.

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