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Pissflaps posted:I don't think poor people are strangers to debt. They are more likely to have friends and family with high debt horror stories though, so for them the idea of debt is worse than the student loan income-based reality.
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Feb 27, 2015 20:18
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Wolfsbane posted:That's all true enough (as are the arguments that this is effectively a graduate tax, albeit a fairly lovely one), but I always worry that the people most likely to be scared off university by DEBT are people from poorer backgrounds, who are going to have a very different view of being thousands of pounds in debt than someone from a family that sees debt as a mortgage plus a handy way to get a new car every couple of years. Or maybe that's a bit patronizing, I dunno. Numbers of students from poor backgrounds has continued to rise even with 9grand fees
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Feb 27, 2015 20:21
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Loving Africa Chaps posted:Numbers of students from poor backgrounds has continued to rise even with 9grand fees Yes, but was the rate of increase effected by the raise in fees? Just because its still rising doesn't mean it didn't have a impact. Also, with the way the student loans are set up now, what is the difference between them and a graduate tax? The only difference seems to me that you stop paying it after a while, but for most its not a concern.
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Feb 27, 2015 20:23
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Xachariah posted:They are more likely to have friends and family with high debt horror stories though, so for them the idea of debt is worse than the student loan income-based reality. Do you think all those pay day loan companies were selling to middle class families?
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Feb 27, 2015 20:24
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Payday lenders and rent to own places tend to deal in smaller amounts of cash and more immediate timelines though. If you've been screwed over by a £100 loan, I can see why borrowing a few grand over a very long term would look like a terrible idea. And for every person who has lost out to payday lenders or rent to own, there's another who will drill into their children "neither a borrower nor a lender be" precisely because of that, and with little nuance. Or maybe that was just my grandparents.
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Feb 27, 2015 20:29
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Gary Glitter's been gaoled for 16 years:quote:Former pop star Gary Glitter has been jailed for a total of 16 years for sexually abusing three young girls between 1975 and 1980. source; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31657929 ---- Completely unrelated to the above, Leonard Nimoy's died.  :http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-31662024 --- quote:Devon and Cornwall Police withdraw 'brutality' image  Yeah, all the drunks I know attack each other wearing police riot gear. ACAD.--- Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Feb 27, 2015 |
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Feb 27, 2015 20:50
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Pesky Splinter posted:Gary Glitter's been gaoled for 16 years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6Hx7Q2oC5U
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Feb 27, 2015 20:56
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Pesky Splinter posted:
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Feb 27, 2015 20:59
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Unsettling. Guavanaut posted:Maybe they got the 45% reduction by telling some of their officers to stay at home. Wouldn't surprise me.
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Feb 27, 2015 21:16
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So are kids' TV personalities these days allowed to have adult sex lives or have we still not figured out that's what turned everyone into nonces
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Feb 27, 2015 21:23
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Torquay is a quality night on the tiles don't let that image fool you (let it).
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Feb 27, 2015 21:27
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Renaissance Robot posted:So are kids' TV personalities these days allowed to have adult sex lives or have we still not figured out that's what turned everyone into nonces What? Did the BBC used to have a celibacy policy for kids' tv presenters or something?
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Feb 27, 2015 21:29
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I don't buy into the "Catholic priests touched kids because they weren't allowed relationships" thing. It doesn't explain what happened in grammar schools, children's homes, Penn State, or the Tory party.
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Feb 27, 2015 21:38
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marktheando posted:What? Did the BBC used to have a celibacy policy for kids' tv presenters or something? There were rumours that Janet Ellis was 'encouraged' to leave Blue Peter due to being both pregnant and unmarried. IIRC she has said this isn't true but it is indicative of public perception around the issue. Listening to Any Questions - Natalie Bennett is doing much better this time and even managed to get a (n)ice burn on the hilariously 'roaring Major'-style UKIPer (worth listening to just for his insanity). E: Hahaha the audience just tried to give him a slow handclap - if nothing else this election is going to provide some great pantomime. vvvv Not sure if it has come up (I missed some stuff), maybe try iplayer? Also, she gets points from me for apologising immediately for her poor showing, no other fucker even admits to their car-crashes. EmptyVessel fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Feb 27, 2015 |
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Feb 27, 2015 21:44
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EmptyVessel posted:
Well should could hardly do any worse. Has she worked out how to pay for her flagship policy at the fourth attempt?
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Feb 27, 2015 21:46
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Guavanaut posted:I don't buy into the "Catholic priests touched kids because they weren't allowed relationships" thing. It doesn't explain what happened in grammar schools, children's homes, Penn State, or the Tory party. Its having power over kids in situations where nobody will catch them or believe the kid. The no sex probably just encouraged some who might not otherwise
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Feb 27, 2015 21:49
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The Tories have managed to take a politically popular and morally correct idea and sully it. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/27/homosexual-pardon-delayed-whitehall-fears-paedophiles-simon-hughes-alan-turing
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Feb 27, 2015 22:32
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EmptyVessel posted:Listening to Any Questions - Natalie Bennett is doing much better this time and even managed to get a (n)ice burn on the hilariously 'roaring Major'-style UKIPer (worth listening to just for his insanity). I'm honestly surprised anyone let her near a microphone again after that last loving shitshow
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Feb 27, 2015 22:55
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She's horseshit.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:00
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Total Meatlove posted:The Tories have managed to take a politically popular and morally correct idea and sully it.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:10
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Given that they weren't convicted of being paedophiles this wouldn't really pardon them of it either. Probably some of those men were bad people in other ways, this pardon isn't about that though.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:23
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Guavanaut posted:Whatever happened to Blackstone's formulation? Surely the vast majority of those convicted were not pedophiles. What's that legal principle that states that old laws don't need to be explicitly repealed if they're overridden by new ones? It's something like that. wiki article on Blackstone posted:Former American Vice President Dick Cheney said that his support of American use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" against suspected terrorists was unchanged by the fact that 25% of CIA detainees subject to that treatment were later proven to be innocent, including one who died of hypothermia in CIA custody. "I'm more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than I am with a few that in fact were innocent." Asked whether the 25% margin was too high, Cheney responded, "I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. . . . I'd do it again in a minute."[14] Get with the times Guavanaut! Compassion is dead.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:30
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Pasco posted:
So I figured, why not make this weekly* in the run up to the election? pre:27/02/2015 - 10 Weeks remain UKPR weekly Polling Average CON 32%(nc), LAB 33%(nc), LD 8%(nc), GRN 6%(nc), UKIP 15%(nc) Elections Etc: CON 279(-2), LAB 283(+1), LD 23(nc), SNP 40(nc), UKIP 3(nc) Election Forecast: CON 285(+3), LAB 276(-4), LD 27(+2), SNP 39(-1), UKIP 1(-1) May 2015: CON 270(+4), LAB 271(-4), LD 26(nc), SNP 56(nc), UKIP 4(nc) The Guardian **New** CON 275, LAB 271, LD 27, SNP 51, UKIP 4 Average prediction of predictions: Con 277(+1), Lab 275(-3), LD 26(+1), SNP 47(+3), UKIP 3(nc)  *Presuming people find it even marginally interesting, and to conveniently coincide with the excellent UK Polling Report's weekly election round up post. big scary monsters posted:Given that they weren't convicted of being paedophiles this wouldn't really pardon them of it either. Probably some of those men were bad people in other ways, this pardon isn't about that though.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:32
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I'd prefer it in graph form.
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Feb 27, 2015 23:35
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Feb 27, 2015 23:59
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Total Meatlove posted:The Tories have managed to take a politically popular and morally correct idea and sully it. Is it that popular? Do people really care about pardons for offences being committed as far back as the 19th century? There were all sorts of stupid laws then, just as there are now. Big loving deal. Might as well issue pardons for all the women convicted of adultery before 1857 for all the good it will do. Societal norms change and the government should be worrying about important things.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:01
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Thats some quick service right there, can you do a 3d version in the right colours?
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Feb 28, 2015 00:01
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3D graphs of 2D data are an abomination.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:03
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I mean so are unlabelled axes but eh.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:05
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big scary monsters posted:3D graphs of 2D data are an abomination.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:07
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Prince John posted:Is it that popular? Do people really care about pardons for offences being committed as far back as the 19th century? There were all sorts of stupid laws then, just as there are now. Big loving deal. Might as well issue pardons for all the women convicted of adultery before 1857 for all the good it will do. Societal norms change and the government should be worrying about important things.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:07
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Prince John posted:Is it that popular? Do people really care about pardons for offences being committed as far back as the 19th century? There were all sorts of stupid laws then, just as there are now. Big loving deal. Might as well issue pardons for all the women convicted of adultery before 1857 for all the good it will do. Societal norms change and the government should be worrying about important things.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:13
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The government's argument here makes a lot of sense, and I'll be sure to use it in future. Tax cuts for the rich? Sorry can't do that, it could benefit paedophiles
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Feb 28, 2015 00:26
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Dunno what makes you think this is a 19th century thing. Because they're doing it for everyone convicted under a law enacted in 1885. Two thirds of the people they're pardoning are long dead. Crameltonian posted:The people still alive convicted under that law might possibly care about being pardoned. Fair point. I was being a grumpy old man.
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Feb 28, 2015 00:33
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Prince John posted:Because they're doing it for everyone convicted under a law enacted in 1885. Two thirds of the people they're pardoning are long dead. Even if they were dead, I'd still think it would be worth doing simply because even if they are dead, in a majority of cases there are probably people alive who cared about that person and would rather not see them tarnished as a criminal simply for existing. It might not seem like it matters, but people really do care. Before Irish 'deserters' (who went to fight the Nazis) were pardoned there were campaigns for their reputations to be restored, even though they were executed. Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Feb 28, 2015 |
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Feb 28, 2015 01:06
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Ddraig posted:Even if they were dead, I'd still think it would be worth doing simply because even if they are dead, in a majority of cases there are probably people alive who cared about that person and would rather not see them tarnished as a criminal simply for existing. Perhaps even more than this, any society worth the name should be capable of looking at the past and saying "We were wrong". I grant there comes a point where that is less meaningful due to the distance between now and then, but we're certainly not there with this law. Of course then you end up with Tories insisting everything is "right" as though declaring it strenuously enough makes it so, so maybe it's not such a good policy.
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Feb 28, 2015 01:52
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Its politically popular at the moment because there's just been a film, with which some people are only just becoming aware of the issue, and a well positioned campaign running off the back of that with some huge name attached.
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Feb 28, 2015 09:50
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Pissflaps posted:Surely those who never pay them back are the minority though ? Current official estimates are around 48% of debt to be written off. But over such a long period of decades that comes with big caveats, relying on certain assumptions about continued wage growth and not too many recessions. Unless you meant those who never pay back any amount of their loan.
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Feb 28, 2015 11:13
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Seaside Loafer posted:Thats some quick service right there, can you do a 3d version in the right colours? 
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Feb 28, 2015 11:17
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There are people still alive, in parliament and other positions of power who actively participated in the persecution. Pardoning their victims without also prosecuting them stinks of a white wash. It isn't restess, it's a cheap political stunt. I don't think the state should be allowed to just rewrite history to hide its barbarity.
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Feb 28, 2015 11:21
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