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Uncle Wemus posted:She's pretty good compared to most Japanese female characters not exactly the most challenging of hurdles
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Jul 11, 2015 03:19
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Uncle Wemus posted:That always seemed like such an odd complaint but I'm not sure why. Sure, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that just because she's not as bad as the worst examples out there that she doesn't also have issues of her own.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:19
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Mel Mudkiper posted:not exactly the most challenging of hurdles Baby steps. It's hard enough to deviate in Japan as it is. Plom Bar posted:Sure, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that just because she's not as bad as the worst examples out there that she doesn't also have issues of her own. True. It's definitely not a game my parents would have approved of when I was a lad.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:22
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Dapper Dan posted:Demeaning writing is bad writing and games need to start caring more about that. If the writing in games starts being better, everything will improve, including diversity.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:24
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Its about narrative for me. I am fine with saying "she is still pretty objectifying but she does make steps in the right direction at some points that I hope other developers can build from" But too many people try to say "because she does some things well she is not problematic in any way"
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Jul 11, 2015 03:24
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I'm still hurt over Other M. Why did they do this to you samus.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:26
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bayonetta is at least mildly sexist but then so are lots and lots of games. remember the big-boobed tiki sex goddess character from far cry 3? i do
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Jul 11, 2015 03:26
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Uncle Wemus posted:I'm still hurt over Other M. who would have thought the DOA guys would not do women well
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Jul 11, 2015 03:28
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Far Cry 3 is a loving trainwreck because the writers couldn't decide what it was about. Is it about how readily players will accept violence in games? Is it about how white savior narratives are stupid? Is it a combination of the two and a condemnation? Who knows! Not the writers.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:29
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Plom Bar posted:I take considerable amount of issue with this viewpoint as well, actually. Created things do not have agency outside of their creator's whims. A writer/character designer can create a character that has agency within the universe they inhabit, but at the end of the day the character serves the needs and desires of the creator above all else. "I created this sexy librarian whose superpowers are to turn her hair, that is also her clothes, into hellbeasts to defeat her enemies, so that she literally has to remove her clothing to win fights " is...really reminiscent of the last panel of Kate Beaton's Strong Female Characters comic. She weaponized her sexualization because her creator had such in mind when creating her. It's an interesting critical discussion when you phrase it like that: at what point, if ever, does sexualization/objectification automatically become misogyny? If a creator has deliberately made a character that is attractive, often naked, and constantly performing a blood-spattered burlesque show for the audience, but who is also self-assured, competent, and fearless, with full agency at all times, what does she wind up as? You get a bit of the same discussion with Lollipop Chainsaw and Juliet Starling. She's unquestionably a ditz in a scanty cheerleader outfit, but she's competent, knowledgeable, smarter than she acts, and always in charge of her own actions, while her boyfriend is forced into the leg-clinging damsel role throughout most of the game. It's driving him pretty close to insane by the last level. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a deliberate parody, but it's definitely self-aware, and a lot of the humor in the game comes from that.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:30
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Literally The Worst posted:Far Cry 3 is a loving trainwreck because the writers couldn't decide what it was about. Is it about how readily players will accept violence in games? Is it about how white savior narratives are stupid? Is it a combination of the two and a condemnation? Who knows! Not the writers. i think the problem with far cry 3 was that the writers turned out to actually be big fans of white savior narratives, misogyny and violence despite having deluded themselves that they weren't, because they're dumb as loving poo poo upper middle class white male STEM nerds
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Jul 11, 2015 03:32
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PantherWill posted:Would I be wrong in assuming that GGers basically want all game reviewers to be Dave Halverson as far as the eye can see? Or am I reading them wrong? Depends on what you mean by Dave Halverson: the guy who did that Girls of Gaming magazine or the guy who lost his drat mind over Lair.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:33
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Wanderer posted:It's an interesting critical discussion when you phrase it like that: at what point, if ever, does sexualization/objectification automatically become misogyny? If a creator has deliberately made a character that is attractive, often naked, and constantly performing a blood-spattered burlesque show for the audience, but who is also self-assured, competent, and fearless, with full agency at all times, what does she wind up as? you're right, this is a question that nobody has every considered or tried to answer before, much less successfully done so, and moreover is an existential roadblock to all social justice criticism and particularly to the criticism "Hey the game about the big-boobed dominatrix wearing a skintight suit made of her own hair and 10 inch heels is sort of oversexualized!"
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Jul 11, 2015 03:34
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icantfindaname posted:i think the problem with far cry 3 was that the writers turned out to actually be big fans of white savior narratives, misogyny and violence despite having deluded themselves that they weren't, because they're dumb as loving poo poo upper middle class white male STEM nerds Also a strong possibility.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:37
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Wanderer posted:It's an interesting critical discussion when you phrase it like that: at what point, if ever, does sexualization/objectification automatically become misogyny? If a creator has deliberately made a character that is attractive, often naked, and constantly performing a blood-spattered burlesque show for the audience, but who is also self-assured, competent, and fearless, with full agency at all times, what does she wind up as? Well, nothing's perfect and nothing ever will be perfect, obviously. I'm just wary of the line of thought that a character "owning their sexuality" means that the objectification suddenly isn't objectification. It smacks of the writers of Power Girl coming up with canonical explanations that the Boob Window is actually symbolic of her struggle with her internal demons and is actually indicative of how deep and complicated she is.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:38
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Wanderer posted:Depends on what you mean by Dave Halverson: the guy who did that Girls of Gaming magazine or the guy who lost his drat mind over Lair. Assuming Dave didn't do his usual bit of writing columns under multiple bylines, it was Casey Loeb who wrote that Lair review. I was thinking the Dave that spent a page and a half masturbating in his Bayonetta review and loves every game he touches to the point of even giving Sonic 2006 a 9.0. Surprisingly enough, it's not "did" that Girls of Gaming mag, it's "still doing", apparently. PantherWill fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 03:38
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Wanderer posted:It's an interesting critical discussion when you phrase it like that: at what point, if ever, does sexualization/objectification automatically become misogyny? If a creator has deliberately made a character that is attractive, often naked, and constantly performing a blood-spattered burlesque show for the audience, but who is also self-assured, competent, and fearless, with full agency at all times, what does she wind up as? well i believe james gunn wrote the story for that game, He also did Tromeo and Juliet and of course Guardians of the galaxy and he helps Lloyd Kaufman with alot of his projects. So i am pretty sure it is a deliberate parody.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:43
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One thing I always wondered since this started: why is it called Gamergate? I mean, yeah I get that it involved video games, but this is too broad. It would be like instead of calling it Watergate, we called it Politicsgate.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:50
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Plom Bar posted:Well, nothing's perfect and nothing ever will be perfect, obviously. I'm just wary of the line of thought that a character "owning their sexuality" means that the objectification suddenly isn't objectification. Nah, I'm not arguing that at all. You're right; that particular reasoning has been used to try to get away with some truly ridiculous poo poo. PantherWill posted:I was thinking the Dave that spent a page and a half masturbating in his Bayonetta review and loves every game he touches to the point of even giving Sonic 2006 a 9.0. The big GamerGate objection, as far as reviews go, seems to be when you bring "politics" into it. For example, the PC Gamer review of Hotline Miami 2 was a big GamerGate lightning rod, simply because the writer mentioned it has a rape scene he found pointless and unnecessary. If you go there now and check out the comments, a lot of them are from random assholes defending the rape scene's inclusion, despite its mention being one paragraph in a much longer review, and the author repeatedly saying that he busted the game's score down mostly due to design issues and glitches. To the GamerGate way of thinking, a game's sexual, racial, or gender politics are utterly irrelevant to the larger package, and should not be discussed when critically evaluating the game. Otherwise, you're an "SJW" shitlord and they put you on that cute list they made. I'm cynical enough to suspect that, in a theoretical case where a critic was so enthralled by a given game's characters having extremely rad tits that he gave that game a higher score than its gameplay deserved, GamerGate would inexplicably let that slide. Mr Interweb posted:One thing I always wondered since this started: why is it called Gamergate? I mean, yeah I get that it involved video games, but this is too broad. It would be like instead of calling it Watergate, we called it Politicsgate. The actor Adam Baldwin came up with it back when it looked like the "Quinnspiracy" was a thing and it was going to blow corruption in games journalism wide open.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:52
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Mr Interweb posted:One thing I always wondered since this started: why is it called Gamergate? I mean, yeah I get that it involved video games, but this is too broad. It would be like instead of calling it Watergate, we called it Politicsgate. "Cultural Marxism"-Gate doesn't have the same ring to it.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:53
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Plom Bar posted:Well, nothing's perfect and nothing ever will be perfect, obviously. I'm just wary of the line of thought that a character "owning their sexuality" means that the objectification suddenly isn't objectification. It smacks of the writers of Power Girl coming up with canonical explanations that the Boob Window is actually symbolic of her struggle with her internal demons and is actually indicative of how deep and complicated she is. That's not fair, Platinums writers are much better than DCs
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Jul 11, 2015 03:55
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I wonder, were the old Quest for Glory games a white savior narrative?
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Jul 11, 2015 03:58
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so are we past the point where sexualized little girls with giant cocks are used as a counter to chan culture? i kinda stopped reading there
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Jul 11, 2015 04:03
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:so are we past the point where sexualized little girls with giant cocks are used as a counter to chan culture? i kinda stopped reading there I missed this part
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Jul 11, 2015 04:06
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I missed this part guh. hyuck.
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Jul 11, 2015 04:08
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edit: welp nevermind
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Jul 11, 2015 04:13
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I don't think anybody really missed it, per se.
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Jul 11, 2015 04:13
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yeah lets all pretend using porn will actually affect channers for one lets also pretend everybody condemned it for two
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Jul 11, 2015 04:20
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:yeah lets all pretend using porn will actually affect channers for one I'm fairly sure 4chan was already churning out Vivian James porn within ten minutes of her character sheet being finished anyway.
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Jul 11, 2015 04:26
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Dominic White posted:I'm fairly sure 4chan was already churning out Vivian James porn within ten minutes of her character sheet being finished anyway. i bet shes 1000 years old in the manga
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Jul 11, 2015 04:28
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no Tomoko is like 15 in the manga. the manga is also surprisingly progressive and Tomoko is a very good female character IMO, and it's a shame 4channers latched onto it so hard
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Jul 11, 2015 04:32
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icantfindaname posted:no Tomoko is like 15 in the manga. the manga is also surprisingly progressive and Tomoko is a very good female character IMO, and it's a shame 4channers latched onto it so hard i could only make it about half an ep in the anime, too much cringe, still got sidonia to watch
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Jul 11, 2015 04:36
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Mel Mudkiper posted:On a completely unrelated note the writer for Watch_Dogs is very pro gamergate I remember them bragging about how many lines they had, but apparently they didn't pay all that much attention to how good they were. And that really does not surprise me. Also, Watch_Dogs becomes so much better and more hilarious if you imagine the protagonist has severe autism and has no idea how basic human interactions work. wiregrind posted:I would unironically be interested in reading/watching feminist analysis of videogames that wasn't entirely based on the negative, that contrasted positive with negative examples in the medium, that aknowledged good and bad gameplay design, and took into account the unpredictability of player action. Yup, that would be interesting to see.
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Jul 11, 2015 05:19
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blackguy32 posted:Sunset seems to be a game that people keep bringing up. Part of me wants to try it out because the reviews on metacritic doesn't make it seem like it is that bad of a game. The other part of me doesn't want to pay $20 for it. It's a bad game, like worse then Hatred as far as actual game play.
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Jul 11, 2015 05:26
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blackguy32 posted:Sunset seems to be a game that people keep bringing up. Part of me wants to try it out because the reviews on metacritic doesn't make it seem like it is that bad of a game. The other part of me doesn't want to pay $20 for it. you can always refund it, thank Gaben
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Jul 11, 2015 05:27
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Obdicut posted:Sure, but he still gets shot about a zillion times and survives, and is able to beat komodo dragons and sharks and stuff in hand-to-hand combat. Or he doesn't really do anything and just wanders around an island with people looking at him funny. The counterpoint is your friends that you rescue along the way. Like the one chick who works on the boat who is visibly worried about you because you're clearly out of your mind.
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Jul 11, 2015 05:43
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:you can always refund it, thank Gaben That's what I did. It is bad.
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Jul 11, 2015 06:01
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Mel Mudkiper posted:On a completely unrelated note the writer for Watch_Dogs is very pro gamergate Dapper Dan posted:I remember them bragging about how many lines they had, but apparently they didn't pay all that much attention to how good they were. And that really does not surprise me. Also, Watch_Dogs becomes so much better and more hilarious if you imagine the protagonist has severe autism and has no idea how basic human interactions work. Where did you get this from? Because from what I can see it's precisely the opposite: https://twitter.com/KevinShortt/status/588481181575999488 Maybe your thinking of Ethan Petty the lead writer of the DLC and an assistant writer for the main game. He was also the writer for Bloodlust Software which set the bar in the '90s for high levels of "problematic" writing. fez_machine fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 06:11
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wiregrind posted:I would unironically be interested in reading/watching feminist analysis of videogames that wasn't entirely based on the negative, that contrasted positive with negative examples in the medium, that aknowledged good and bad gameplay design, and took into account the unpredictability of player action. It's funny, I can think of female characters in games that are not bad examples, but I hesitate to name anything that I can really identify as good. SHISHKABOB posted:Like the one chick who works on the boat who is visibly worried about you because you're clearly out of your mind. Actually now that I think about it Daisy is probably the best female character in that game. Everyone else is waiting for nutty Jason to do his thing, she's fixing a boat to get the hell out of there.
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Jul 11, 2015 06:14
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Powercrazy posted:It's a bad game, like worse then Hatred as far as actual game play. I'll try it out. It's $20. No big loss if it sucks.
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