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So, uh, I don't get why people say "Mission 51 clearly was the real ending of the game!." It appears to just be another side mission that resolves a dangling plot thread and would probably have been a basically-recycled version of an existing boss fight. It's absence is noticeable but largely because it is a side mission that is otherwise unresolved, not because it is the ending of the game.
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Sep 9, 2015 07:38
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:It was the real ending in the sense that it resolved the major missing piece of the game (Eli flying off with Sahelanthropus), fleshed out Eli's motivations enough to make sense in the context of MGS1, and made the "fall" of Venom more overt (the mission was also going to include him bombing a civilian village to ensure that the last English strain was contained, which is where the shot of Venom screaming in the middle of a burned-out village from the Nuclear trailer came from). It would have wrapped up the game's self-contained story well enough, and I think it's a bit unfair to say that a second MG fight would just be "recycled." Their plan for it was really cool and very ambitious, and literally hundreds of of games have you fight a major enemy more than one time without it feeling stale. No, it really isn't. The ending of the game we got is the ending of the game and was pretty clearly intended to be. It bookends the entire story and causes it to end not only roughly at the same place it starts (with the Man Who Sold The World tape) but also at the start of the original Metal Gear. There is absolutely no way that was intended as the ending of the game and there is no chance the game would have ended there or it would have been the final boss fight. (Except insomuch as it might be the final fight against a boss-like character.)
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Sep 9, 2015 07:51
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Oh, it certainly would have been an improvement to be in the game but people talked about it like it completely redefined the ending and explained all these important things and the game is obviously hugely incomplete without it which I don't really agree on. The Eli thing is left dangling (though we know from context how it resolves) and that sucks but I don't feel like it would have really redefined the plot much. It's more that it closes up a few things, most of which honestly are not that major. The English parasite thing is the biggest one I'd say and that is just resolved with "they sterilize the land and Eli just gets it resolved via plot device" which honestly isn't much more satisfying. I mean I guess my feeling on it is "it'd be better if this was in but even if it is in Eli's kind of a dull character with a predictable motivation we already know, it isn't going to change my feelings on the plot much."
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Sep 9, 2015 08:13
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Nakar posted:He did, that's why he's wondering about that. The entire room was a hallucination, as was Paz (and the butterfly), but there are multiple scenes where Ocelot and Kaz walk in and start talking about it. Obviously these must have been hallucinations themselves, but that makes no loving sense because Venom never hallucinates Kaz and Ocelot any other time, and there's no logical reason to hallucinate Ocelot of all people because Ocelot wasn't with MSF. It does make sense. The entire thing is a guilt hallucination that Venom is having to justify to himself how Paz could have survived. Every single bit of it is him (as the medic) trying to make up justifications for how he wasn't really responsible for her death by missing the extra bomb. The entire room is a guilt hallucination. Everything that happens in it is a hallucination. The photos are never hung up on the wall, nobody else goes in there, everything he sees there is fake including Miller and Ocelot.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:51
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Nakar posted:If it's a dream as the final cutscene implies, then when did Venom fall asleep? The shrapnel in his brain triggers hallucinations. As for why it is Ocelot it is because his brain is trying to justify it (and from a meta-perspective the player needs it justified too.) Ocelot is, hilariously, the most trustworthy voice of reason that Venom Snake has so that is why Ocelot is the one showing up when he is trying to fool himself. Nakar posted:It's not enough to say "Yeah well he'd trust Ocelot's authority as a neutral party that's why he hallucinated him!" because at no other point has he ever hallucinated Ocelot or suggested that he would. V Why isn't it? There are plenty of indications that it is fake. The entire point is that he is trying to fool himself. Since Venom is the player why wouldn't he try to fool the actual-player too? Venom Snake is explicitly and unmistakably supposed to be the player. You're asked for your name, your birthdate and to create how you look and in the final scene they reveal that Venom's name is your name, his birthday is your birthday and he looks like you. When the game lies to you (as it also does in the opening with Venom's face), it is explicitly Venom lying to himself. The entire game is you, the player, being aware that you're probably not Big Boss but also trying to live up to the legend of Big Boss and act as you'd expect Big Boss would. Despite not being Big Boss by the end you've defined his legend and effectively 'become' Big Boss. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 20:02
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Nakar posted:That's not an excuse to just break all rules of narrative convention when it's convenient. There are lots of clues to the player that the Paz thing is exactly what it appears to be and it is. Then they cheat by having Venom hallucinate in a very specific way he otherwise never does. Venom Snake hallucinates the doctor telling him that he was Big Boss. This is one of the first things in the game. Nakar posted:Everything about the Paz sequence meshes with how Venom's situation works except imagining real living people showing up and telling him things. How does that not make sense? Why would he not hallucinate a real person? You're basically arguing that it's cheating because you say it is cheating. Nakar posted:. I'm criticizing the direction, not the idea, I don't understand what's so hard to grasp about this. Because you're claiming it is breaking a rule when it isn't breaking a rule. There is no writing rule that says a hallucination can't be a living person. Even when Ocelot tells you that the response from the player is "That can't be true... can it?" Which is the exact response the character is supposed to have. I mean, yes, it cheats. It shows you things that didn't happen. The entire point is that it is supposed to be cheating and showing something that didn't happen and which is so blatantly contradictory. The game lies to you because the character is lying to themselves. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 20:11
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Nakar posted:If he can hallucinate a living person showing up when they're not even present why does that not happen elsewhere to establish it? It pulls the idea out of its rear end for one specific scene. In all other instances his memories are sorta-true but fragmentary, out of order, or jumbled. In this case he just flat invents a meeting that doesn't happen. Why does it matter if they're living or dead? Venom isn't channeling spirits. The entire point of it is that it is a fake scene made up by Venom to justify a completely implausible survival. It doesn't matter if the character involved or alive or dead because it isn't Snake summoning spirits or talking with a literal ghost. Even Paz's final tape points out that it isn't Paz talking, it is the fake Paz in Venom's brain saying the things he wants to hear. Even single thing in that room is Venom seeing and hearing things he wants to hear. Yes, it lies to the player because the player is trying to fool himself. You're arguing that is cheating but it isn't. The only way to fool a semi-omniscient player is to feed them a believable lie and so for Snake to lie to himself (both literally and metaphorically) there has to be something that fools not only the player-character but the player. Your argument is that it should have been more blatant and obvious which would be far worse direction. The twist is already obvious and pretty blatantly expected. The twist isn't that Paz was ~dead all along~ which the player is clearly supposed to expect. (Much as they're supposed to expect they're not Big Boss.) It is that the player (theoretically) hopes that Paz is alive. It would have been utterly meaningless if the player had no doubt at all.
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Sep 9, 2015 20:25
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iGestalt posted:Either a nameless mook, a chart or the Medic himself explaining it would've worked better. Personally, I prefer the idea of it being the ideal version of the Medic (Using the character you created at the start would've been an interesting choice but could've given it away too easily). Why it less of a cheat to hallucinate a living character in that case? It also doesn't work because that has no impact on the player. At best they'd be confused why the guy they picked is explaining things. It seems like what people want is for them, the player, to have no doubt at all. Which defeats the entire point of that scene and makes it kind of worthless. Not to mention that the entire game is a lie to the player. Ocelot spends the entire game lying to you, even if he isn't aware of it. (Also a major theme of the game is people lying to fool themselves.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 20:32
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Intel&Sebastian posted:If i finished the truth version of Man Who Sold the World, and Eli already took off with Sehan, am i set up to watch the mission 51 show? You can watch it before that. Mission 51 is not the final mission despite what people are claiming. It resolves the Eli plot but that is about it. It's on-par with the end of Quiet's plot or Huey's plot. It's probably called Mission 51 because it is a missing mission, not because that is where it would have come chronologically. (especially since the last mission is just a boss refight on Extreme.)
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Sep 9, 2015 20:38
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Oxxidation posted:It resolves the arcs of the remaining two major villains, the giant stompy doomsday robot, and the silly doomsday language parasites, and also ties off a number of statements about the cyclical and futile nature of revenge and Venom's acceptance of his new nature. It's an ending. No it isn't. There is literally no way the plot was not literally going to end with the exact circle from the start of the game to the ending which returns to the same place while also being the start of the original Metal Gear. It resolves plots. It is not the ending of the game. It certainly plays the credits but so does the end of Quiet's plotline.
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Sep 9, 2015 20:58
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Oxxidation posted:Yes it is. The true ending might have been the final tie-off to the game, but the bulk of its characters and themes are resolved (with an unusual degree of deftness) by Episode 51. Unless you saw a different version of Episode 51 then I did this isn't really true. It resolve's Eli's plotline but Eli's plotline is part of a trilogy with Huey and Quiet's endings, all of which serve to reinforce the ideas the game stated. Its absence is notable but it literally on part with those three because all three together form the thematic whole of the ending, not Eli on its own. Unsurprisingly all three are based around the parasites too.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:03
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iGestalt posted:There was meant to be a scene where Venom has to blow up a village of innocents or something? That would've been an interesting piece of character. People keep claiming this but it isn't in the Mission 51 scene as presented. I have no doubts that could have happened (and it would have, again, thematically been relevant with Snake being forced to kill his own men during the mutation sequence) but Episode 51 as presented is that they track down Eli, defeat the Metal Gear, and then Boss has a final sequence with Eli that leads to a flash forward implying Liquid's future. It also doesn't make a ton of sense because it would make it a very bloated and busy mission. I can completely buy there was a mission where Boss had to exterminate a village but it seems entirely rumor that it was the same mission where you fight Eli.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:09
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Oxxidation posted:That one line he says to Eli - "That's right. Don't blame yourself. Blame me." - is really drat good even if you're not measuring it by Kojima's skewed standards. It's mockery, because by getting so caught up in his past and his revenge quest Eli's given up on creating his own future, which Snake, at the beginning of the game, warns Kaz and the Diamond Dogs not to do (and then does anyway). It's pitying, because the bitter irony is that Eli's pouring out his heart to a man who, like him, is just a copy of the person he really hates. And it's also ultimately an act of kindness, because Snake's at least giving him the delusion that he got to declare war on his arch-enemy before he died. Throughout the game we get glimpses of Snake in the ACC window, and he always sees glimpses of his old face. After Mission 51, after setting an island full of child soldiers on fire (child soldiers who were only there due to his own actions), shooting his "son," and leaving him to die, he sees Big Boss's face in full Demon Mode. Episode 51 is where Venom Snake fully accepts his identity as Big Boss's surrogate, and all the heinous acts that must follow from that acceptance. The true ending just clues us players in on Venom's own revelation. I disagree. Even as you describe it what it is doing is reinforcing Venom's behavior in the infection strut and Quiet's mission. I think it certainly adds to that but all three missions basically are reemphasizing the same point. This isn't bad but it is emphasizing exactly what happens. (right down to Demon Boss showing up after he murders his soldiers and dropping to his knees in despair.) It's certainly an effective way to end Eli's plot but like the other missions it's basically Kojima hammering the point home. Like those missions it even has a clever bit of gameplay/story interaction. (The player is the one who shoots Eli, arguably the player is forced to kill the child soldiers he rescued although I think that is assumption rather than confirmed.) Like I said, they are a trilogy. There are three English parasites. (Well, two and a mutant one which is effectively an English parasite) which result in serious loss for both Venom and the player and leave lasting gameplay consequences. I think Eli's section of the trilogy being missing is disappointing but I don't think it stands on its own as the ending. I think it and the other 'side character' resolutions end up setting the stage for the ending. Nakar posted:So what happens with the outbreaks if, say, my entire base staff is female? I'm not insane enough to try to do this but I'm sure someone, somewhere with access to the lua files can get it set up. I suppose for the first outbreak you'd just have it trigger from a single random Kikongo-speaking male volunteer, you'd quarantine all the Kikongo-speaking women, the volunteer would die, and that'd be that. But what about the English one? You can't have an all-female staff, I think the game locks you to having certain male characters to proceed in the game.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:30
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Sharkopath posted:The vocal parasites aren't gender specific where ya'll getting that from. The game specifically says it. Code Talker explains it IIRC. They can be carriers but don't show symptoms. I'm not sure if this applies to the mutated stream because women soldiers there do display symptoms. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 21:32
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Sharkopath posted:How'd the lady doctors end up infected then? I think the only assumption you can make there is "beta rays sure are magical" which I guess is why that particular strand is so deadly. Ibram Gaunt posted:They're asymptomatic carriers. They can't be. The way you detect them is that they have a fever which counts as a symptom. Nakar posted:I wasn't even aware females couldn't die of the parasite. Are people sure about that? Yeah, it's explicitly stated. I even remember because I was like "oh, okay, so that is why none of my lady Kikongo speakers died."
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Sep 9, 2015 21:38
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Skull Face is a Hideo Kojima villain and therefore his plan is at once overly convoluted and incredibly stupid but almost works anyway.Intel&Sebastian posted:Skull faces plan wouldn't work (or needs some more feminist overtones) if the intention is to only stop men from speaking english. All the male/female poo poo I remember had to do with the VIRUS ITSELF BEING MALE OR FEMALE and how wolbachia changes one of them to the other, stopping them from activating. I will look up the tape when I get home but Code Talker explicitly mentions women being asymptomatic carriers at one point.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:43
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Oxxidation posted:You've got mental issues bro I have never been as angry at anything as he is at this video game. Sharkopath posted:It's actually kinda more elaborate than most metal gear plans, he has multiple things he's doing to install himself in power and he fails because you stop all of them. To be honest you don't really stop them, you just happen to bring Eli within range of Psycho Mantis and he does it for you.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:45
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Man, whatever else I can say about MGSV, Huey is one of the better characters Kojima has ever written. He is a horrifyingly unlikable poo poo in a incredibly believable way for a man trying to invent a giant robot.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:56
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I never quite got why it was so important for skullface to be able to turn off the nukes. I mean obviously that's a sweet ability to have in a Republican world where everyone is safe because everyone has a nuke, but I can't recall exactly how it fit into the plan in such a way that they wont proceed without it. It gives him soft control over the way wars play out. If people are using his nukes he can effectively determine who wins.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:58
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It honestly is amazing that Otacon turned out as well as he did and even more amazing he somehow managed to raise Sunny to be as reasonably healthy as a brainwashed child raised by the internet can be.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:12
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The Boss must basically be the angriest loving ghost. Between Big Boss, Strangelove, Cypher, and Skullface alone.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:43
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Broseph Brostar posted:Shouldn't she be angry at herself for inspiring every bad that happened for decades? I think she'd be angrier if it seemed like a single one of them actually understood her drat motivations. Instead Big Boss is like "GONNA MAKE A COUNTRY OF SOLDIERS" and Cypher is all Big Brother and Strangelove makes an AI nuclear walking tank and Skullface decided that nuclear peace is the way to go.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:48
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What is this 9/11 thing I keep seeing pop up? Some rumor?
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Sep 10, 2015 02:36
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Caros posted:So I'm confused about something (shocking I know). What was actual Big Boss doing in the intervening nine years that Venom was in his coma? Was he also in a coma that he woke up from at the same time? Was he hanging around the hospital for nine years just waiting for the medic to wake up so that he could make sure no one finished him off? If he was up and active then how the gently caress did no one know that Big Boss was out in the world for those nine years and what was he doing?. Big Boss was also in a coma. (Ishmael's "i've watched over you for nine years" thing is kinda bullshit.) There's a tape of Zero visiting the comatose Boss not long before he wakes up.
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Sep 10, 2015 03:29
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Caros posted:That tape is from pretty early on into the coma, no later than 1977 as that is when he gets turned into a vegetable by the parasites. Its also possible that when he thought he was talking to Big Boss he was talking to Ahab who had his face wrapped and everyone was already assuming/pretending was the boss. Nah, they mention Ahab at the same time and how they were preparing him.
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Sep 10, 2015 03:50
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Actually that does lead me to a question: What happens if you make your Venom Snake a black dude or something similar? I recall that was an option and I guess they kinda gloss over it?
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Sep 10, 2015 04:08
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We totally are. There is not going to be some insane last-minute conspiracy add-on. The game, it be done.
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Sep 10, 2015 05:39
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The game already does the phantom pain thing anyway. It's basically the entire reason you lose Quiet thematically. She is gone but you (in theory) feel the absence of the character as she is no longer available as a playable character but traces of her remain. It also kinda makes more sense than cutting part of the game out only to return it, which is the opposite of phantom pain.
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Sep 10, 2015 05:46
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:If Baby Mantis was projecting Volgins hate....where was Volgin? Am I missing something? I thought he was just drawing from BBs projected fear. Volgin survived and was being held in a hospital. Mantis was in a plane nearby which is what triggered it. You get a tape about it once you recover his corpse.
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Sep 10, 2015 16:48
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Full Battle Rattle posted:I'm just curious what the Camp Omega re-visit was going to be. I suspect it was going to be part of the final reveal and you got to see Snake through the perspective of the medic, rather than the final mission just being the first mission with like two changes. It'd be Kojima revisiting what he did with Raiden. (Which is honestly what Venom Snake is: Raiden 2.0, right down to your name appearing as his name at the end of the game.) Edit: In general Kojima has a biiiig thing for 'the same things repeat over generations but in doing so they change." It's a convenient excuse to reuse character concepts but at very least he does seem to actually want to do something with it which is how you get things like Huey or Venom Snake. Venom Snake is arguably a successful SSS (the fake one,not the real one) project, right down to being put into place by Cypher. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 17:13
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HardKase posted:This has probably been said but ... To make you ashamed of your words and deeds, duh.
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Sep 10, 2015 17:57
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Turns out that Hideo Kojima was never actually working on Metal Gear Solid V. It was instead a fake, a phantom Hideo, designed to attract attention from Konami and the fans and to uphold his legend while the real Hideo Kojima created his true game in secret.redreader posted:Strangelove is clearly not bi. She's full lesbian. I don't know why she ever gave Huey a chance. It's like... it's almost like she's actually bi. But she isn't? I'm not sure why you don't think she's bi. She's clearly more in love with the Boss than anyone else but that doesn't preclude her being bi.
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Sep 10, 2015 19:40
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lovely Wizard posted:I just realized that co-op would have been extremely feasible considering how big FOB's can get with as well as the # of AI supported online. I suspect that a lot of that kind of thing didn't happen because of last-gen console limitations. The fox engine is magic but it's still absurd they got it running on PS3/360 at all, even if it is running like poo poo. Speedball posted:I figured the twist was coming from the moment you typed in your name. I just knew Kojima was pulling another Raiden switcheroo on us. I think it was expected you'd guess it. The game isn't really subtle about it.
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Sep 10, 2015 23:40
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Hijo Del Helmsley posted:I'm playing on PS3, and I'm amazed at how not-poo poo the running actually is. It gets a little jittery if a bunch of explosions all go off at once or whatever, but unless I engineer scenarios where stuff like that happens, it's pretty drat solid. It runs at literally half the frame rate with massively reduced textures. It runs surprisingly well for what it is but way worse than on the PC/next-gen.
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Sep 11, 2015 01:12
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Yeah, I admit, I can't think of any glaring plot holes beyond the Eli thing.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:00
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Broken Cog posted:That is a pretty drat big glaring plothole though. It absolutely is and I'm not discounting that, but it's at least one with a resolution (if not at all the way it should be resolved.)
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Sep 11, 2015 04:03
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Sharkopath posted:How they did chico in blows though, not even a tiny bit of memorial. Either as Boss or Medic your gu should have memories of the lil dude. There's a tape where Miller and Boss talk about how lovely it is.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:48
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Vengarr posted:Big Boss only seemed to tolerate Paz, he didn't really give a poo poo about her the way Kaz and a lot of the men did. He literally went on a date with her.
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Sep 11, 2015 06:28
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DreamShipWrecked posted:On an aside, what do people think of all the Moby Dick references? Ishmael, Ahab, the fire whale, and apparently the boat was named Pequod Moby Dick is like the iconic "the folly of revenge" story. It's pretty blunt how it ties to PP. Eli is also LORD OF THE FLIES: THE CHARACTER.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:49
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lovely Wizard posted:It wasn't even revenge as much as it was "stop another villain threatening world balance who preemptively attacked you purely to reduce resistance to his plan". In fact, it wasn't even a folly since his retarded vocal parasites would kill like a billion people before it would be contained/resolved. They would have killed Skull Face even if his plans was entirely benign. The fact they were stopping a threatening villain was coincidental. You can tell because after they beat him they start manufacturing nuclear weapons themselves. Miller literally begins referencing 1984.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:06
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