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Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Hugoon Chavez posted:

Toilet paper becomes incredibly valuable when you can't find toilet paper. You can't wipe your rear end with cigarettes and if you put booze down there it's gonna end up clean but you aren't going to enjoy it.
Actually anally ingesting alcohol will make you more drunk than orally ingesting it. The Venezuelan state merely asks that you appreciate their dedication to efficiency.

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Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Purpose-built voting centers seems like a big waste, but sharing them with obviously partisan institutions is even worse. Have they given any reason as to why they are doing this? Is the standard procedure not to just commandeer schools over the weekend (as seems to be the practice in the rest of Latin America)?

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
What is the official line regarding the status of the Constitution regarding the Estado de Excepción? If there are no rights being suspended, then what is the point of declaring totally-not-martial-law? The entire objective of such a method is to expedite state action by removing people's rights for the duration of whatever is going on. How can anyone keep parroting the opposite when this is what is happening by the very definition of what they themselves are doing. Its not a question of obfuscating facts or drawing up scapegoats, such as in the case of whether or not these Colombians are all in paramilitary organisations and/or drug cartels, but something which is proven false literally by the name that they have given it.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

ComradeCosmobot posted:

Who says he has to even hold an election?
OEA/UNASUR say he has to hold an election. Calling off the elections will not happen unless everything in Venezuela goes to complete and utter poo poo. I want to believe that actual suspension of elections is not a line that we are willing to cross in Latin America after the Juntas, although if you go by the disregard for human rights in the region I wouldn't be exactly shocked, just even more disappointed.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Phlegmish posted:

The region is under effective control of Guyana, right? Is there anything Venezuela could realistically do to press its claim? I imagine that if they tried to invade, there would be a strong international reaction.
Its administered by Guyana, apart from consistently pushing in the UN and regional forums through regular diplomacy, Venezuela would have to invade, and that would end poorly obviously.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

M. Discordia posted:

Maduro may eventually realize that if he wants to retire to a villa in Nice with his billions of looted Swiss bank account dollars, the perfect pretext will be a negotiated end to a U.S. intervention. Then we can get another 100 years of Allende-type apologism claiming everything was going great until the CIA interfered, too.
I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think Maduro cashing in his chips and retiring quietly is exactly comparable with him being killed in the Presidential palace, under bombardment from the armed forces, which then in collusion with other reactionary elements established a horrible dictatorship and killed thousands of innocents.

Maduro is a horrible person, but by using such statements you're just playing into the image of the oversensitive and perpetually suspicious Latin American right-winger.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Fair enough, this being a discussion about Latin American politics one can never be too careful sadly. I don't think Maduro is open to any sort of violent overthrow regardless. The military has been sufficiently purged (they learned the lessons of the past decades) and there's really no other source for that sort of force to come from. The whole thing could end with blood on the streets and the like, but it won't be because the military initiates the action.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Chuck Boone posted:

  • VTV Live Stream: Live coverage of the elections from the state-owned television channel.

I clicked through this and they casually mentioned how there were "at least 400 reports that had been submitted against Venezuela and the electoral process", which I guess is people complaining about being intimidated at a voting area or something. It's fantastic watching in a really hosed up way.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
To what extent is it possible to (1) reform the judiciary or (2)strongly influence permanent staff appointments in state institutions. Given traditionally strong Latin American executives, which is even more powerful in Venezuela, does control of the legislature (obviously more at the 2/3 level than the 3/5 level) translate into an effective means to generate change? For example, over the last year, and particularly in the last two months, the Kirchnerist government in Argentina has designated thousands upon thousands of public-seector permanent staff, which are extremely difficult to get rid of. In the vast majority of cases, these are people who's qualifications do not extend further than membership in La Camporá, and whose purpose are just to throw a spanner in the work of the new administration.



Also ABC is barely qualified to be used as toilet paper.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Look Mr. Burns is clearly a horrible person but I don't think we should descend to the level where we call him a Peronist.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Where's Borneo Jimmy? I can't form a correct opinion without his impartial information bulletins.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
If there is no electricity to run shops, no capital to import goods, and people have to queue for hours for food, then starting to close down shops and give people more time off and more holidays is a frank admission that the situation is horrible. Even in North Korea you are expected to go to your job and clock in and out at the appropriate time, even if 90% of the day is spent standing around because you lack whatever it is to do your job. I assume that in many cases you have vast underemployment by now in Venezuela, and this is only going to get worse. Obviously you cannot run an economy by having half of the workforce standing in line for eggs 6 hours a day, and nothing breeds discontent like a bunch of pissed off people being forced to congregate for hours on a daily basis in order not to starve to death.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
I think the general passivity in the face of the erosion of human rights in Venezuela is the worst thing to have happened in Latin America this side of having the entire continent covered in military juntas. The entire point was to not revert to this crap. It's extremely disappointing and leaves me feeling sad any time anyone mentions any sort of regional body.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Who is actually making the minimum however(wouldn't it just be rendered obsolete by inflation) ? Or rather, that pizza is not indicative of purchasing power if you are willing to stand in line and play the rationing lottery, so what is a more apt comparison of what your average employed person may be able to afford? Assuming you have dependents who are able to stand in line while one works? I'm just trying to comprehend how people are still able to get by, because it's now reached the point where it sounds so dire that it beats the crap my own parents would tell me about having to put up with when they were kids in regards to lining up for food and such (and back then it wasn't anywhere as violent in terms of street crime etc.)

In other news the 25th anniversary of the foundation of Mercosur was an absolute disaster. No presidents except for Uruguay's attended, a lot of Brazilian deputies walked out in protest about Dilma and then Venezuelan deputies interrupted speeches complaining about the changes made to the court. So not only has Mercosur stagnated over 90% of its lifespan, but it can't even hold a self-congratulatory meeting.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Can't wait for Borneo Jimmy to spin the deaths of babies into an anti regime plot.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

JeffersonClay posted:

Caracas is the new Pyongyang.
The streets in Pyongyang at least look clean.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Mans posted:

It's interesting you mention Angola because as time goes on this situation just seems to be eroding into an Angola-lite situation where the ruling party has total control fo the military and shares the wealth with it just enough to make sure that any popular organization is properly crushed while their oil exports and massive import needs means that A) the right wing of the west remains silent because they like cheap out and a good place to export their goods and B)the left remains silents because they crony party in power was nominally leftist twenty years ago.

NGOs hate him!!!!! One weird junta trick

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

fnox posted:

The concept of a Venezuelan diaspora is very real at this point. A low estimate puts the amount of people who have left the country in 17 years of Chavismo to be around 1.2 million.
To anyone who thinks that 1.2 million is a low number over 17 years, there are a few things to note. Firstly, while people have been emigrating always, it's only in the last few years that the situation has really become clearly unsustainable. Secondly, those 1.2m are on a population of 30m, so it is a sizable chunk. And most importantly, those 1.2 million who left are the overwhelming majority of those who have the means and opportunity to leave. As noted above, it is a complicated and expensive process, and Venezuela is a very unequal society, with people in general just getting poorer as time goes by. The current government has created a climate in which almost everyone who can leave, is leaving.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Venezuela is not going to splinter into different provinces or any other Tom Clancy bullshit. The country is going to poo poo but at least it's going to poo poo together.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

El Hefe posted:

And Mercosur are also going to declare Venezuela a dictatorship soon apparently, Maduro's days are numbered.
Where are you hearing this? Not seeing any reliable source on this information.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Sorry for our poo poo foreign policy Venegoons. It wouldn't be Latin America if we didn't gently caress it up at the last minute.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

TheImmigrant posted:

'The gently caress? Who is 'we'?

Argentina, we had an actual good concrete chance to push at the OAS and we didn't. Sorry for not being clearer.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Spacewolf posted:

Does anybody else remember (probably not from living through it, I was only born in 83 myself, but has anybody else heard of it) that one of the events that kicked off the Iranian Revolution was a biiiig, glitzy party for the 2000th anniversary of Persepolis (or something) in a country that was largely in poverty?
Indeed, but it was really something else in scale and expense. Also at that point the regime of the Shah still had international legitimacy and got all sorts of people to come validate the celebrations (which probably only added to the complaints of the then-fringe clerics and such).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,500_year_celebration_of_the_Persian_Empire

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
I'm sorry to the Venegoons but don't get your hopes up about any MERCOSUR or Unasur or OEA shenanigans. At most what will happen is that they will give the presidency of MERCOSUR to someone else, or have some sort of emergency session bypass. Do not expect Venezuela to be put on probation for human rights violations or democratic failings or anything of the sort.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
I think it's telling that when asked about affiliation you have a massive 35% of people who don't believe in the government that, even in this situation, would rather not associate themselves with the opposition and rather say they are independent. Even though the other question for removing Maduro adds up the percentages of people who identify as opposition and independent fairly well. Is this indicative of such a bad view of the formal opposition? How can the MUD be so unappealing that it is only attracting just over half of people disaffected with the current regime.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Please take your medicines. Unlike our friends in Venezuela you have ready access to them but choose to ignore your doctors advice.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Kurtofan posted:

Where does Chavismo still have the most support?

The armed forces.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Whenever I wonder how this has all happened and how the PSUV has held power for so long I just remember myself of the Venezuelan opposition.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Labradoodle posted:

Yes, I'm lucky. I'm a freelancer and I should have enough saved up to leave within the first three months next year and move to Argentina while sending money back home. If that weren't a factor, I would've gotten the hell out of dodge already.
Bienvenido y buena suerte para vos y tu familia.

Personal anecdote but it certainly seems like the number of Venezuelans in Argentina is growing.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Labradoodle posted:

Well, there go the Argentina plans I guess. I was expectant to see what would happen since they mentioned the possibility a couple of months back, but we all knew it was going to go down sooner or later. I should still have enough savings to leave next year – maybe I'll do the whole digital nomad thing while I find a nice place to settle down.

I don't think you should have any major issues? It's still very easy to come and live in Argentina. There are a lot of non-MERCOSUR Latin American immigrants. The law is very accommodating to foreigners (a good thing).

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Where are you seeing this? Maybe I've just not been paying attention to the right things but:

1) I haven't seen any reputable source or mainstream newspaper report on anything more than discussion
2) Even if Venezuela was kicked out of MERCOSUR from one day to another it is still very easy to move to Argentina as a Latin American, and, if that was your plan, you should not let that dissuade you.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Pity Party Animal posted:

For gently caress sake, if you want the best news from a country, maybe try news sources from that part of the world? Damnit goons.

http://www.lanacion.com.py/2016/11/22/venezuela-va-hacia-la-suspension-mercosur-al-no-cumplir-requisitos/

Venezuela is not in compliance with the Treaty of Ascension and thus in jeopardy of losing its vote in the bloc (if corrupt idiots can't prevent it somehow).

So as noted above there actually isn't more than just talk on it being reported at the moment. Good to hear what the Paraguayan foreign minister has to say about it but anything major happening in MERCOSUR will be decided between the Brazilian and Argentine governments behind closed doors. Also forgive me being suspicious but Venezuela should have been suspended from MERCOSUR, UNASUR, and the OEA about 5 times each. So jumping the gun Venezuela's suspension (not expulsion, which would probably affect things like emigration questions) is a very real prospect.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

As always, the only thing that can outdo satire is real life.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Bates posted:

Professional diplomats and public servants, sure. Politicians, such as the Foreign Affairs Minister, can just be some random incompetent idiot appointed by some other incompetent idiot.
They are many things but they're not idiots. That kind of language underestimates their actions. These are people who have turned the state into a large protection racket. They may be short-sighted and devoid of empathy but they know what they're doing. The MERCOSUR business is a stunt, it feigns action through the foreign minister's protest, and therefore makes it look like they're at least trying something. The alternative would have been to stay in Caracas, which would have accomplished the same from an institutional perspective, but would not have allowed the Venezuelan government to put forward the idea of the combative initiative of their narrative.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Baloogan posted:

Guess its not the right time to visit. I hate queuing in line anyhow.
If thats your main constraint then I recommend joining the armed forces or security services.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
In Argentina when there are waves of looting (and there hasn't been anything serious in years inshallah) the police almost without fail pulled back from small/medium shops and protected large chains and foreign businesses. It is designed to create social tension and turn the smaller stores into comparatively easier targets.

Even if the shop-owners have guns what are they going to do? They're going to be a few people up against a mob, if they shoot not only will they get looted they'll get lynched as well. By the same token, what are even well-organised criminal bands going to do? Are they going to go up against the police and potentially get their own people killed? No, they'll go after the TV or phone shop and then flip the merchandise.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

fishmech posted:

People who start saying Hitler had some good ideas when they get frustrated need some serious help, in my opinion. Especially people saying it for a country run by a dictator already.
It's almost like situations were you push society to the breaking point benefit the elite by pitting the general population against each other in a brutal competition for perceived luxuries that used to be commonplace.

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Any particular insight about El Aissami and the appointment? Does this mean bad tidings for Diosado?

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Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011

Dapper_Swindler posted:

well, the only good thing i take from this is that the only people supporting maduro openly anymore (outside of the country) are WOKE tankie clowns who mostly stay on twitter and right lovely thinkpieces about how great maduro is(which are rairer now a days) or "academics" like Ciccariello and my old government professor who are basically old hippies or tankies who somehow survived the bush years and jerk off about the glory days when they had the USSR to worship and now they can only worship smaller failing states. No one real is defending them anymore.
Yeah its just those guys and a considerable number of the Latin American ruling elite, plus the Chinese government who is financially propping them up.

That article is good and notes that the absence of commentary among the left in Western Europe is a very real issue. In Latin America though a lot of those people are still very vocal, and our governments fail to act even though Venezuela breaks every democratic accountability rule in Mercosur, Unasur, OEA, etc.

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