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CalmDownMate posted:There is not a single country on earth that is moving leftwards except maybe Canada. Don't worry as soon as our household debt bubble bursts we'll join in on the global descent into facism. There are no actual socialists in Canadian politics.
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Dec 7, 2015 14:19
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It was very nice of the PSUV to use their absolute control of the elections in such a way as to make the opposition win
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Dec 7, 2015 14:20
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Did the people in this thread educate themselves a bit about the history of CIA intervention in Latin America since last time I checked or are they still supporting the totally legitimate and democratic color revolution in Venezuela
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Jun 28, 2017 18:21
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consumed by normies posted:im pretty sure most people posting in the politics nerd subforum thread about venezuela are well aware of the CIA's history in latin america dude. good job at coming off like a pompous know it all rear end in a top hat though Precambrian posted:this time, the CIA can provide material stability and goods for the poor haha ok North Americans: If you want to help the starving Venezuelan people how about you pressure your own government to lift economic sanctions, which is something that you can actually do and where you actually have some power to change things, as opposed to doing their imperial propaganda work for them or acting as if the Venezuelan government gives any poo poo what you think?
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Jun 28, 2017 22:20
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The purpose of these sanctions against Venezuelan officials is to discredit the Venezuelan government and to send a signal to the market that it is unstable or subject to intervention. In that sense they have been successful at harming trade relations with the country and at legitimizing other actions against it. The current US administration is also working on expanding these sanctions. Meanwhile the US continues to fund, arm, and support oil-exporting states like Saudi Arabia who have a much worse human rights record than Venezuela ever did and can export massive quantities of ultra-cheap oil since they rely on slavery and wars of pillage to bring it to market, sabotaging the oil-exporting Venezuelan economy in the process.
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Jun 28, 2017 22:52
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ryde posted:You have to be living in a bizarro world to think targeted individual sanctions are going to discourage market participants more than the government literally taking your poo poo to boost their popularity. Heaven forbid democratically elected governments do things that are popular with the people, that they have been elected for and have a popular mandate to do: they're supposed to trick the masses into supporting them by feeding racist lies to them while doing the bidding of their private donors, just like in civilized first-world countries
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Jun 29, 2017 04:41
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Munin posted:Fixed that for you. good thing you were here to fix that for him, it was starting to get a bit too obvious what this is really about
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Jun 29, 2017 05:01
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I love how I've been called both a "jacobin reader" and a "chapo guy" in this thread, it's very cute how you folks think opposing imperialist intervention was invented in the 2010s
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Jun 29, 2017 05:23
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Squalid posted:I was asking earlier but could you explain your reasoning behind characterizing the current Venezuelan opposition as a color revolution, with the implication that it is funded by western institutions? To be honest I would expect American support for the Venezuelan opposition, I just haven't seen evidence for it yet. - The entire history of democratically-elected socialist governments and CIA inverventions in Latin America, including the history of such an intervention against the Chavista government in 2002 (vs "this time it's different i know it!") - The funding of a strong USAID presence in Venezuela (Well-documented vector of regime change) - US sanctions on Venezuela (you must be extremely naive to believe that these sanctions are in good faith and that other foreign government officials are judged by the US according to the same standards) - Multiple leaks revealing plans against Venezuela. (Even without the leaks, believing in the non-existence of such plans, given knowledge of history, is again extremely naive) - Massive US financial and military support for Venezuela's primary competitor on the international oil market, a brutal dictatorship that commits countless crimes against its people and numerous war crimes - Methods that have been sponsored by the CIA in other instances of regime change, such as phone company movistar spamming people with anti-government texts, or the "green helmets" PR campaign in western media, etc - Friends in Venezuela who share this view, and are not white youtubers or wealthy expats - US-based media compagnies like Twitter blocking pro-Maduro Venezuelan accounts as a matter of policy, while allowing literal nazis to use the platform - People who get all their ideas from pro-Imperialism outlets continuing to display their ignorance of basic facts about the situation to me, such as ignoring the fact that the parliament was suspended because of electoral fraud, ignoring deaths at the hands of the opposition, etc There is literally nothing I can do as a North American to help with what the Venezuelan people are going through, except opposing my own government's complicity in all of the above. I have no power in Venezuela and no influence over the government there. I also know very well how bad things will get if the opposition gets in power, because again I am not a naive tool with no knowledge of history or of the realities of politics. When this happens the rest of you will either reveal yourselves as the fascists that you are and openly support the death squads, or will suddenly lose all interest in what's going on in Venezuela and pretend nothing is happening like the liberal bootlickers that you are. Thanks for the title and avatar btw. I'm glad I finally got one after all these years. It's too bad about the homophobia though. 
Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 15:58
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Quorum posted:If your supposed leftism leads you to support a repressive dictator, you're a lovely leftist, sorry. If your supposed leftism consists in supporting tax-funded welfare reforms for the people who have citizenship in your own first-world nation, while simultaneously supporting wars and military action abroad, and imperialist interventions against countries that oppose your nation's domination or threaten the international financial interests of your nation's private businesses, then you are a fascist, sorry.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:17
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The other thing that you folks need to understand about all these evil "crazy" brown/oriental dictators that your media keeps warning you about, is that they only get to be where they are in the first place, and to be able to maintain a strong enough base of popular support for their "authoritarian" policies, because they are seen as the only line of defense against foreign imperialism and the brutal pressures of international capitalism. If you want the "strongmen" to go away, you should work towards making your own government stop systematically harassing/threatening/attacking every country that ever questions its hegemony, and allow the people of the world to have some self-determination without policing the outcome.
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Jun 29, 2017 16:32
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Laphroaig posted:Everyone agrees that Venezuelans need to decide their own future. And the only thing that non-Venezuelans can do to ensure that is to be honest and recognize what their own government's interest is in the situation, and work towards preventing it from acting on it and interfering. I couldn't provide material support for Maduro's government even if I wanted to, nobody in Venezuela cares what I think about him. Powerful interests in North America who want to ensure things go their way in Venezuela however do care about the support for intervention or lack thereof.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:08
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Saladman posted:Hey Bob, how about replying to Chuck or Fnox's point by point blows to your earlier post? They're both Venezuelans, with Fnox being on the spot until quite recently. Half of these answers make no sense to me. Like "Ok, so we're supposed to not have democracy ever then.", what? How did you get there?? I was also responding to someone asking me why I thought the CIA was involved and most of these answers are "but Maduro's regime did bad things too" which I never contested and wasn't what we were talking about. Other things that I am not contesting: the fact that things are really bad in Venezuela or that there are massive opposition protests.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:19
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fnox posted:If you know that things are really bad in Venezuela why the gently caress would you be against a change in government? I am obviously not against any change in government in the abstract but I do know that were the opposition to seize power within the present conditions, it would make things a lot worse for the most vulnerable in Venezuelan society, because I understand where power lies in the movement and what it stands for, what is at stake, who stands to gain, and which interests are trying to make things go their way, and because I have knowledge of Latin American history and an understanding of the realities of politics under capitalism. The opposition is led primarily by the middle and upper class, by business owners and the privileged; it is backed by imperialist interests including the CIA, and will assert its power over the country with the utmost violence and repression once it obtains it, secure in the knowledge that the US and international media will let them get away with anything and remain completely silent about their abuses, and that they have the full support of the most powerful country on earth and of international capital. This scenario has all played itself out many times before and in many other places around the world.
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Jun 29, 2017 17:54
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Using the historical record, facts, methods that have proven themselves, and critical reasoning to come to a conclusion is not "guessing". Ignoring all of the above and going "it's gonna be different this time, I have faith" is not really guessing either but it's naive, wrong, and insane according to one popular definition of insanity.
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Jun 29, 2017 18:04
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Quorum posted:And projecting to boot. Sub "the CIA" and "right wing authoritarians" for "the KGB" and "communists" and suddenly you've got a pro Pinochet poster. It's very clever how you figured out that politics is a thing that exists
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Jun 29, 2017 18:08
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I don't really expect to change the minds of any of you folks who are being super vocal against me in this thread. All I hope is that once things eventually play out the way that I laid out above, and when most of you suddenly go completely silent about the situation, some people will question why they didn't see all this coming and hopefully will decide to think more critically and to try to stop this all from happening again in the future.madeintaipei posted:What, exactly, do you mean by this? What I mean is that you need to stop pretending like the role of government is about nothing more than the rational and enlightened management of society by elites for the good of all. We live in a world of slaves and slaveholders, a world where violence is the norm for most and is only the exception for a privileged few who get to live in their bubble and moralize while remaining oblivious to the realities of the lives of the people who clothe, feed, and care for them. You need to start recognizing that there are irreconcilable interests within capitalist society, that it's impossible for the masters and the workers to be at peace, and that the masters have shown time and time again throughout history to that they will stop at nothing to safeguard their position, that they will use the most abhorrent violence and the most devious manipulation to get their way and protect their interests. This is why it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that leftists and reactionaries hate and oppose each other. This is why throughout history some people turn to communism or anti-imperialist "strongmen" for hope and support, and others rely on the CIA, fascist movements, NATO, puppet states, etc to defend the status quo. The only people who get to pretend that picking a side is wrong, and that Pinochet supporters and anti-imperialists are the same, or who buy into similar horseshoe theory bullshit, are people so privileged and with their head so far up their own rear end that they can't tell what's at stake and why others understand this as a struggle over life and death. And this is also why it shouldn't be surprising and should be completely expected that when a socialist government gets elected democratically by a population living in poverty and with a mandate to redistribute wealth and private property; then business owners, ruling class people, international capital, and other powerful interests will never just politely accept the outcome, but in fact will accurately understand this as a threat to their domination and will use every measure available to them to discredit/attack/sabotage such a government and reassert power, with not the slightest consideration about the lives that will be destroyed in the process and the suffering that it will produce. When you deny this reality, when you pretend like these things don't happen or don't matter, you are doing a disservice to the oppressed in their struggle for liberation and are in fact picking a side, the side of the powerful, who are the only ones who benefit from this ideological narrative. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jun 29, 2017 |
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Jun 29, 2017 19:15
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Quorum posted:There are not currently democratic elections in Venezuela, because the regime knows it would lose and does not accept that outcome What is the point of having seperate legislative, executive, and judiciary branches of government in your opinion, and what is the proper process and the proper action to take when evidence of electoral fraud & irregularities emerges? Imagine how different things would be in a country like the USA if it had a functional judiciary that was willing to prosecute politicians and hold them accountable for subverting democracy
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Jun 29, 2017 19:35
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Chuck Boone posted:Bob, you have no idea what you're talking about. Seriously. There is no separation of powers in Venezuela. The judicial branch is 100% controlled by the executive right up to the Supreme Court. I know this very well and what I'm talking about is the events that led to this situation. I assumed other people knew this already and I didn't have to explain it, just like I assumed when people say there are no elections in Venezuela they are in fact aware of the 2013 presidential election and the 2015 parliementary, and I don't need to point out that they happened.
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Jun 29, 2017 19:48
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Chuck Boone posted:If you haven't done so already, read Orwell's "Animal Farm". "I used to think socialism was good until I read the book with talking animals written by a guy who gave a list of suspected communist to the UK government" You say we are on the same side, but I don't know what you believe a revolution looks like or how it goes down. I don't think you understand the violence of the reaction revolutions face, the complete breakdown of society that happens, and the authoritarian measures that become necessary for every side involved. Socialists will only ever be allowed to try to change things within the existing framework so much until capitalist opposition escalates and things break out in open war. When this becomes the case, the very legitimacy of state institutions are up in the air. I mentioned the separation of powers thing because I wanted to point out that the judiciary was acting within its powers back then when it ruled against the National Assembly, and that I wish the same thing was imaginable in other countries. Maybe you don't care because you believe that things were already too compromised and that the process was already illegitimate at that point. That's understandable, but if that's what you think then it means you also agree that things necessarily play by different rules now and that the process cannot be expected to continue without being hampered. I didn't want to get too bogged down in details about the specific situation in Venezuela because those details really don't have much weight on my own position, which is that non-Venezuelans should study and expose their own governments' stake in the situation and oppose intervention. But since we got to this point I will say one more thing: I believe Maduro is on extremely precarious ground, he has no real support from any foreign powers (the idea that Cuba has any influence is kind of a joke), certainly no support from the private sector or any other ruling class faction in Venezuela, and even other leftist factions oppose him. It's very expensive and takes a lot of effort to sustain an "authoritarian" state. The only support that Maduro still has at this point is from groups and social organizations that are loyal to the Bolivarian revolution and see him as its defender, and as the last line of defense against the dictatorship of the right-wing. It doesn't matter whether that's true or not, if Maduro wants to stay in power, if he wants to hold back the opposition, those are the only groups he can count on, and the only thing that he can do is continue to try to empower and appease them. At this point though, I think it's very unlikely that this will succeed. Maduro is losing support and will probably be defeated, and when that happens, unfortunately, the balance of power will probably be such that things will keep getting worse for those among the Venezuelan people who are the most vulnerable. madeintaipei posted:By your own logic here, we could just say the PSUV intended the country of Venezuela to end up in the situation we see today. We could say Chavez himself guided a kleptocratic government in defrauding the entire nation, disguising his motives by "buying off" the poor with unsustainable programs built to fail. This would resolve the debate in just the same way you have justified your own conclusions. That does not make either argument correct. Even if this is true, and for the sake of argument I am always willing to concede the most cynical and pessimistic possibility, even if this is true, the situation where Chavez was an opportunist who got power for himself by "buying off" the poor is still one where the most poor and disempowered were able to exert more power and have more influence on the actions of their government than they ever could under a capitalist regime. I think the people should have power over their government, and the government should be forced to seek to appease the people. This will always be preferable to me over hypocritical paternalism and arguments about needing to protect the masses from themselves.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:47
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Xae posted:The whole point of Animal Farm is that assholes and tin pot dictators wrap themselves in socialism to distract The People while they loot the place and become the exact thing they claimed they were going to replace. Yes I have read the book thank you. I've also read The Foutainhead and The Gulag Archipelago, and yet here I am.
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Jun 29, 2017 20:55
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Zikan posted:2013: the elections are fair they reflect the will of the people and our completely fair and free electoral process 2013: the elections are a sham and PSUV controls the outcome 2015: actually the elections are fair they reflect the will of the people and our completely fair and free electoral process Very nice of Maduro to relinquish the control he had over the electoral process Zikan posted:we need to listen to the will of the Venezuelan people in country except for this one major instance when they expressed an opinion I don't like No we need to listen to the will of the Venezuelan people which is why we should hope for money and foreign power to be kept out of the equation as much as possible
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Jun 29, 2017 21:03
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Munin posted:It's like debating moral philosophy with someone who believes all morality derives from God and the word of God. I try to focus my concern on where I am actually able to make a difference, my own country and its foreign policy, instead of identifying with the interests of my local ruling class and backseat driving other countries where I have no influence. Are you against this because you would rather people like me support our governments intervening against Maduro in Venezuea and backing the opposition?
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Jun 29, 2017 22:28
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Yes I literally believe that every single person who opposes the government is directly taking orders from the CIA and that the Venezuelan national guard never uses violence against protesters. This is a completely accurate and believable characterization of my position that totally makes you look like a serious person who is generally correct about things.
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Jun 30, 2017 04:50
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Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:You might consider giving your own plausible account of events, then. Which events? The tear gassing of that building? I don't have any problem with Chuck's account. If you're talking about Venezuela in general: Bob le Moche posted:The opposition is led primarily by the middle and upper class, by business owners and the privileged; it is backed by imperialist interests including the CIA, and will assert its power over the country with the utmost violence and repression once it obtains it, secure in the knowledge that the US and international media will let them get away with anything and remain completely silent about their abuses, and that they have the full support of the most powerful country on earth and of international capital. This scenario has all played itself out many times before and in many other places around the world. The more you folks flip out and perform outrage about this, the more foolish and discredited you will look when what I wrote comes to pass, and people wonder why they ever took you seriously.
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Jun 30, 2017 15:26
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Diqnol posted:Bob, it seems like you're here to lead the crusade for these broken south american savages and I personally want to thank you for leading them from the brink of disaster. Shine on, you crazy cubic zirconia. It's funny because I'm the only one here who's shutting up about how the "south american savages" should run their own country, and the only one arguing that my own country should not get involved.
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Jun 30, 2017 15:37
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ThisIsWhyTrumpWon posted:Lol I missed some fun!!! Are you OK? Your comparison makes no sense at all, and there are about a dozen ways the two situations are completely different that would immediately come to mind to anyone with a brain. Not to mention that using the memory of the holocaust to score some cheap rhetorical points against your political opponents like this is actually a super lovely thing to do. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Jul 1, 2017 |
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Jul 1, 2017 04:55
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The only way you folks appear to be able to respond to me is by misinterpreting my words in bad faith so that you can then attack the strawman version of me you created. Meanwhile multiple posters have come out in support of intervention or admitted that although regime change would lead to more suffering for the poor, it would be for the best "in the long term", and this is being met with total silence. I don't want to take away from what the Venezuelan people are going through but the fact that you would compare this level of state repression to actual fascist violence just goes to show how sheltered and naive you folks are. You just have no loving idea.
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Jul 1, 2017 13:51
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Ghost of Mussolini posted:I think it's unfair that Venezuelans get to disappear people and literally have drug gangs turned government hit squads shoot at people on video and it's fine but when we throw people from planes into the South Atlantic it's frowned upon. Bob do you have any recommendations on how to solve this brand/image problem? This is all just a big joke to you isn't it?
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Jul 1, 2017 15:10
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My position on Venezuela has nothing to do with the fact that the government calls itself socialist and I took the same position about Egypt under Mubarak for example. I am very curious, however, what the people who say that Venezuela is "not true socialism" would consider a good actual example of a "true socialist" country.
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Jul 3, 2017 15:25
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Cugel the Clever posted:Every country in the Western world embraces economic and social policy that can be accurately described as "socialist" to some extent. It's just that where Western countries use tax dollars to provide a social safety net and reinvest in their populations, shitbags like Chavez invested in his cronies, corrupted the state apparatus into an instrument of his will, and gave his people stagnation and decline. OK so the only "true socialist" countries according to "leftists" who go on about "true socialism" are the white imperialist nations that form the core of the capitalist world-system, got it
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Jul 3, 2017 18:00
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I know this is very difficult for you all to understand but please do continue paying attention to what happens in Venezuela after regime change and there's a possibility you might get it
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Jul 13, 2017 06:28
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GreyjoyBastard posted:the thread just isn't the same without a shitbag implying that criticizing Maduro is fascist. The thread seems to have no problems with a "white supremacist" red text equating brown protesters assaulting a bunch of MPs to nazis murdering leftists, or with "ghost of mussolini" making jokes about dropping them from helicopters. I guess all you very progressive and concerned pro-intervention folks really will accept all the help you can get against the Maduro regime, huh? Such a good faith and principled opposition. Saladman posted:It's funny because you could say this same thing about literal colonialism to promote it too. "Look what happened after we gave the blacks control of Rhodesia — they turned around and robbed the poor blacks even more than the whites before them!" Now you have as many Ian Smith apologists as you have Maduro apologists.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:16
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Bro Dad posted:Can you please tell me what makes the collectivos "brown" compared to opposition? Can you point out where I said anything about whether the opposition was brown or not?
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Jul 13, 2017 16:45
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fnox posted:Since when is this a race thing? Bob, have you ever looked at a Venezuelan? 2/3rds of the population are mixed race. How the gently caress is this a race thing? Have you ever looked at a picture of Rafael Ramirez, or Tareck El Aissami? They're some of the highest ranking Chavistas and they're far whiter than any of their constituents. It seems it's a race thing since I brought up the post from the "white supremacist" red text. Wow I seem to have hit a nerve here, you folks are getting super fragile about this.
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Jul 13, 2017 16:48
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fnox posted:Yes, because it's loving untrue
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Jul 13, 2017 16:58
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dublish posted:Pro-intervention? Did I miss something? The one position I've been posting in this thread to defend is an anti-interventionist one. If you agree with this I don't know what your problem is. I've been trying to argue that the best thing that non-Venezuelans can do for the Venezuelan people is be critical of their own country's involvement and oppose attempts to interfere. I've also been trying to point out that given pretty much the entire history of South America, of American intervention, and of oil-exporting regions; pretending that there's absolutely no way foreign interests are currently involved in the Venezuela situation is pretty naive and irresponsible. For some reason this seems to piss a ton of people off in this thread, who are super intent in putting words in my mouth and strawmanning me, I can only assume as a way of delegitimizing the above stance.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:09
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fnox posted:We are NOT non-Venezuelans. And here you are doing this again. Where have I ever said otherwise?
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Jul 13, 2017 17:13
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dublish posted:Pro-intervention? Did I miss something? fnox posted:Us Venezuelans in this thread want other countries to interfere. Here's your answer dublish EDIT: Lawman 0 posted:I honestly don't really see a path forward to solving this crisis without UN intervention and peacekeepers flooding the country. fnox posted:Your country is not loving involved. It should though, like all other nations in the OAS, because the Venezuelan people can't fight a dictatorship that is willing to openly murder them on their own. GlyphGryph posted:Don't you believe in international solidarity? Should the laborers of the US not feel compelled to reach out in brotherhood and offer their assistance to the Venezuelan proletariat being crushed under the boot of their wealthy oligarchs? Pharohman777 posted:Even if the opposition was supported by imperialist intrests, it would still be better than maduros government.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:23
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fnox posted:Here's your answer, Bob, I'd take bending over to Uncle Sam over having my family killed any day of the week. Why have you been so coy about this until now? If your goal is to convince people that intervention is necessary why not come out in the open and say that this is what you're after, in good faith? We could actually have a discussion about the things we actually disagree on instead of your continued cheap transparent attempts to discredit me. I've been very honest about where I'm coming from.
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Jul 13, 2017 17:30
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