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Eregos posted:Is it wrong for me to feel like a humane and safe solution to refugee deaths would be to: The Australian government is actually paying traffickers to turn their boats back so business is better than ever!
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Sep 13, 2015 11:21
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Typo posted:But the reason for him denying the food isn't necessarily because of ideology, it's because hunger and control of food supply is a useful way to cement his own control over the region. He's acting out of material self interest because a food secure population is more likely to slip out of his control. Oh, stop nitpicking. The root of it is ideology.
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Sep 14, 2015 11:39
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Baloogan posted:Good bye europe, hope next time the US wants you to intervene in something you hop to it! The refugees will DOOM US ALL
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Sep 18, 2015 11:06
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quote:What EU should do right now is follow Australia and make it clear if you illegally enter Europe and request asylum, you will be simply returned, post haste, you will not be given a residence permit. That would stop most of the smuggling business very soon. Some would still try, but word moves around very fast in this age and day. If it was clear illegally crossing the border and then requesting asylum would be an automatic fail, crossing the border would stop in a matter of months. You sound like our (Australia) lying politicians and professional dumbasses who don't seem to get that it isn't illegal to seek asylum. You cannot seek asylum 'illegally'. Get a new talking point.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:07
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Ligur posted:Huh? First off, I wrote illegally crossing the border, nothing about illegally requesting asylum? We've had this debate in Australia already. It's not illegal to cross other 'safe' countries to claim asylum in another one. It is not illegal to seek asylum. Look, I'll even throw you a bone - you want to abandon this line of attack and do what our politicians do and pretend you're saving lives by sending them back to their place of origin.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:30
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GaussianCopula posted:It really depends on your definition of "illegal" and the punishment what kind of punishment for this kind of behavior you are envisioning. IIRC there's a clause about 'effective protection' so if you're going to an Eastern EU country that simply can't look after you, you have the right to move on to another country.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:42
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thrakkorzog posted:Well the Australians had a decent idea, if people are dying taking boats trying to get asylum, then the easiest solution is to stop the boats. There aren't any more photos of sad photos of dead kids on the Austrialian coast, because Australia shut down the human traffickers. Except they didn't, the boats are still coming, only no-one's allowed to report on them as they are 'on water matters'. Don't believe the hype. In fact, the Australian government are doing so well at stopping the people smuggling trade they're actually paying the people smugglers to turn back (see my post history in this thread for the link). Now they're getting paid twice per customer!
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Sep 18, 2015 12:59
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Ligur posted:
Then what's your objection to Syrians settling in Finland?
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Sep 18, 2015 13:06
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Ligur posted:There are almost no Syrians settling in Finland to speak off. I heard the few that do might have a pretty good education and might speak English, so the only objection I have is that we don't really have much in the way of jobs to offer to even our own citizens so they might have to live on welfare benefits and taxpayer funded housing for quite a long time. I'm sure they'll manage and the extra immigrants will be a boost to your economy. You can relax.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:11
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Finland has very low employment rates among large refugee groups. It's not due to simple lack of tolerance, the economy just can't employ them. Uh-huh. Ligur posted:Most of the asylum seekers we receive are Iraqi and Somali. Both are worse educated on average than Syrians with the latter often having no formal education and even illiterate. That's not a good start to contribute to a society like Finland. For some reason, the Arab media has been on fire lately telling how Finland is especially good for exactly Iraqis (get a nice house, job, immediately, family unification, everything, and fast). Nobody really knows where it even started. Perhaps the smugglers have a part in it, dunno. At least they advertise using pictures of Finnish cruise ships... Anyway. So you're saying that since the 90's, the Somalis have been unable to get education to participate in the workforce?  I think you need to face a few realities about your country, and it ain't the fault of the Somalis and Iraqis. Unless you can point to the gene they have that says they don't want to work or get educated.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:29
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VitalSigns posted:It's real weird to go on about how sad you are that Iraqi refugees will have trouble learning the language and finding work in Finland while arguing we should ship them back to be beheaded by ISIS. You just can't find jobs for blacks and Iraqis. They can't do the same work that white people can do. Even after two and a half decades.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:37
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Ligur posted:
Do you have figures for all this? I can't find this myself - I can't even find figures for employment by ethnicity in Australia and am starting to wonder who would bother keeping such statistics. E: But besides that, this isn't anything new to an Australian. Only fifteen years ago we were rabidly racist against "Asians" (by which we meant the Chinese, the Vietnamese and the Japanese - but 'Asians' was the catch-all). Now we don't even blink at them. Before that we were racist against the Italians and Greeks even though they look pretty much white. Racism doesn't have a logic to it - you can even have people married to Africans who are still racist against Africans. Starshark fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 13:45
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thrakkorzog posted:Well, the refugees were happy to get free rent from the state, without actually having to bother to learn Finnish. And trying to force them to learn the local language was racist somehow. LOL this is like 1990's Australian racism all over again. Or maybe those facebook memes by the "Britain First" mob.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:52
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Ligur posted:You can find some figures quickly, even in this thread! Finnish statistics in... FInnish. Oh well, have to take your word for it. As I said in the rest of my post, it's not a slam-dunk that your country isn't racist. Don't worry, you're not alone! My country is also quite racist which is why I've seen your particular brand of bullshit all before. If your country is ready to find jobs for Syrians and Iraqis, they can find jobs for Syrians and Iraqis.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:56
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pointsofdata posted:New UK Immigration bill is worth a look. Highlights are: Chinese Legalism all over again.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:58
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Narciss posted:You can't even make this stuff up:
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Sep 21, 2015 13:52
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LOL it must suck to be you, terrified of actual children.
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Sep 22, 2015 02:21
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FINGERBLASTER69 posted:Nobody answered my question: Why is the responsibility solely on Europe? OECD countries have a duty to take in refugees. Apparently only non-European countries are given a pass for not allowing unchecked immigration. Australia and the US are taking in refugees. The problem is, as with Europe, they aren't taking enough (Australia is taking something paltry like 12 000). They aren't being given a pass. If you'd googled for a second you'd know that.
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Sep 23, 2015 09:47
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Ligur posted:I have posted some of my ideas of solutions before in this thread. I don't have to post them again. From memory you had a plan to deal with 'illegal immigrants', what's your plan for asylum seekers? E: Oh, wait, you want them all to pile up on the borders of the country nearest to their place of origin. Some loving solution. As long as they're not in your back yard, right?
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Sep 23, 2015 11:34
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FINGERBLASTER69 posted:Japan and Korea are also OECD countries (as is Chile). Why can't they take some refugees as well? Because they're racist but you aren't racist so you don't have a problem taking refugees, right?
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Sep 23, 2015 14:09
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Ligur posted:Seriously, what is it with you guys and Muslims? I think if they were largely white Christians you would see a lot less people trying to come up with economic justifications to keep them out (or saying stuff like WHY DOENS'T EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD TAKE THEM INSTEAD). Most of the fear is based on their race and religion. And finally, you're obsessing about this topic in three different threads so 'what is it with you guys and Muslims' indeed.
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Sep 23, 2015 14:24
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Ligur posted:Perhaps because I don't know why. Can't remember talking about assimilation of foreigners much here though. You talk about how Iraqis and Somalis can't get employment in Finland and it can't be anything to do with racism because your best friend who is black has a job. One of the primary concerns of assimilationists is that the dirty foreigner won't ever get a job and just soak up welfare payments. That, along with practicing their religion and speaking funny (you've also brought up that they don't speak Finnish, too).
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Sep 23, 2015 15:19
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:The reason for this is because most of the 'humanist' side of the argument on SA has an unbelievable hard-on for the ideas of Racism, Xenophobia and the new hot-ticket item: Islamaphobia. The 'consequences and at least some undesirable results' are recognised by the 'humanists' (why you picked that word exactly is a little confusing to me), it's just that we think they're not bad enough to deny refuge to people and condemn them to misery and death.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:02
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Ligur posted:Well. I do talk about unemployed x and y because they are. I find it hard to believe this is because racism only, since Kenyans and Ethiopians are as well or better employed than locals, for example. More Ethiopians please. You're suggesting that people immigrating into Finland can't learn Finnish because they're from Iraq/Somalia. Point to the gene that makes that the case. And I've already explained to you that just because you accept group X doesn't mean you can't be racist. Australia was racist against East Asians, remember? Not so much now - we reserve our bile for Arabs and other Muslims.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:38
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If it's not about race, why is the Somali/Iraqi unemployment rate higher?
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Sep 23, 2015 17:54
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PaleIrishGuy posted:It really feels like you're arguing in bad faith here. I don't believe he ever said that people from Iraq or Somalia can't learn Finnish. He has said pretty consistently that it is more difficult to find a job in Finland if you don't already speak Finnish, or at the very least, English, and that this is a large barrier for anyone coming into Finland, regardless of your status (unless you are Kenyan or Ethiopian, apparently). See the issue? steinrokkan posted:Do you see literally no reason why people coming from a Third world country on a different continent over could have it harder to fit into a local service economy than people who came from a stone's throw away? Are Ethiopians "a stone's throw away" from Finland?
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Sep 23, 2015 18:17
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Griffen posted:Well, one guess would be that when you come from a 3rd world country that has some sense of marginal stability (Kenya/Ethiopia) you're more likely to have had the time to acquire skills and habits that are beneficial to getting a job. When you come from a war-torn hellscape (Somalia/Iraq) you may be less likely to have said skills and traits. Thus, cultural/nation conditions =/= racial conditions. LOL, how long do you think Iraq was a "war torn hellscape" for? People in Iraq have an education just like anywhere else. I'm less familiar with Somalia, but considering they've been in Finland since the 90's, I'm sure they could get an education within that time.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:21
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Griffen posted:Let's see, Persian Gulf War II (not even counting the first one), started in 2003. So let's say 12 years of social instability and bloodshed. So someone who is 25 now only had up until 13 years old to have a good, stable education. How many middle schoolers out there are ready to get a job? What skills do they have? Somalia? Been a clusterfuck since the early 90's. So aside from old sages, they have nearly no chance for a stable education. As for your comment about having education just like anywhere else, most of the people coming are young men, so they are the ones most likely to have had their opportunities cut short by insurgency, bombs, and death. For those in Finland since the 90's, they could have been people from the First Gulf War, and I'm not expert on PTSD, but I've heard that it has long-lasting impact on your ability to hold a job. Something about Vietnam/Iraq vets having a really hard time getting back on their feet even with all the structures in place for them.... hmm.... how could anyone who has been through terrible war and death not be just fine 5 minutes later... I dunno... We're talking decades and not every Somalian has PTSD. You're going to have to face the facts sooner or later and understand that the reason Somalians are over represented in Finnish unemployment figures is because of race. And the second Gulf War didn't level the entire country, people were able to get on with their lives, get educated, etc, it was just punctuated by bombing. Life didn't stop because of the war, especially not in places such as Baghdad. The Iraqi refugees I met were university educated, spoke English well, and were capable of holding down jobs. They still had trouble integrating because Australia LOL and every time they try to build a mosque there's mass protests, but there certainly wasn't any "I can't hold a job because I have PTSD" like you seem to think there is.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:32
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Griffen posted:You are missing my point. You asked for a possible reason for Ligur's empirical evidence. I gave you one. Yes, and it's a poo poo one. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 23, 2015 18:50
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DarkCrawler posted:
What would be interesting is how many of the Somalis who arrived in Finland in the 90's are employed now. We can't get anywhere lumping them in with recent arrivals.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:53
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DarkCrawler posted:Or maybe you have no knowledge about the topic whatsoever and aren't willing to listen anything contrary to your pre-concieved opinions about refugees in Finland. You got me!  Edit: The crux of Ligur's argument is that Finland can't take refugees because they'll be unemployed forever (never mind that Somalis and Iraqis are 15% unemployed compared to a 9% national unemployment rate. So it's not like none of them will get jobs - they're just overrepresented). I contend that with education they will be contributing members of society. Plus, their very presence will be useful for the economy because even refugees need goods and services. So feel free to explain to me what it is about refugees that they'll stay unemployed forever (the 15% of them that is) which isn't race. Starshark fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:57
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DarkCrawler posted:According to all the available evidence I did. You've been given multiple posts with multiple paragraphs from actual people from this country, white AND black and you keep repeating the same mantra over and over again. The question remains: Are they going to be unemployed forever if they get educated? And if so, why?
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Sep 23, 2015 19:12
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DarkCrawler posted:No, they're not. But the problem is that it will take them a shitload of time to get educated to the degree that they can do anything beyond menial jobs. Your average Finn goes through 12 years of formal education and tests to get into an university and there is a pretty good chance they have learnt to read and write before they even enter first grade. Then add in the time one has to dealing with mental trauma, the years it takes you to learn to read and write (especially if they want to do it for both Arabic and Finland) and the years it takes to learn the language to enough fluency to even start your basic education, much less high school or university education. That's if you're not a woman, who probably has a shitload of kids to take care of and whose culture generally isn't really big about women learning. Do you really think that refugees will need 12 years of education before they're university-ready?
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Sep 23, 2015 19:23
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DarkCrawler posted:Those who can't even read and write before they get here, yes. You realize that is the requirement for regular Finns to be university ready? You realize every Finn, no matter if they go to uni or not have nine years of formal education? It doesn't take 12 years to learn to read and write, I don't give a gently caress what country you're in.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:31
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DarkCrawler posted:You think someone who didn't know how to read and write is university ready after learning to do so? All right, fine, there's no way you can get into a university in Finland unless you do your twelve years. 
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Sep 23, 2015 19:34
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DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, you can't. It's actually a law. There are nine years of basic education, but if you go into university you have to take three more before applying. Are you really this thick? Yes, I'm thick because I don't know Finnish bureaucracy inside and out. Which is all it is. You don't need to study twelve years solid to be university ready in any other country when you're an adult.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:37
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DarkCrawler posted:No, you don't, if you have an equivalent education from somewhere else. Again, are you this thick that you don't know even this basic tenet of higher education in most first world countries? So are you saying people from Somalia are all empty vessels who haven't learned anything and don't have the education to streamline the process a little? They gotta do the whole twelve years? 
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Sep 23, 2015 19:40
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Puistokemisti posted:Finnish universities are built as continuum to the finnish school system before them, I see sometimes people in university chemistry courses who have not done full chemistry course load in high school and they generally have pretty bad time. Fine, but it's not impossible?
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Sep 23, 2015 19:42
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PaleIrishGuy posted:Do you understand that he's talking about someone with little to no education at all coming to Finland, not someone with 3 years university under their belt coming to Finland and just needing to learn the language? People starting from scratch take time to prepare for a univiersity education, especially in a land with a completely foreign language (as in it share almost nothing with your native tongue). Even illiterate people have learned things in their life. It might even blow your mind to learn that there are illiterate people who can read a little. They're not starting out with nothing more than kindergarten knowledge.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:43
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quote:Unfortunately, the one thing they don't have is a child's ability to learn faster than an adult. It takes much more effort for an adult to learn to read or write than a child, same goes for a new language. So a 25 year-old migrant from Somalia will have semi-useful skills like piracy, day labor, child soldier, etc, but very little of that helps with respect to verb conjugation in Finnish (or whatever language of their host country), rational functions, local history, and all the other stuff kids learn in 12 years of education. They lost an opportunity to readily absorb this, which is a tragedy, but it is also a tragedy to just hand-wave away this reality and say "they'll be fine, you're just racist." That's how you get the French ghettos full of immigrants who don't feel as though they are part of society and end up rioting or shooting up places. Integration of these kinds of migrants is not easy, and shouldn't be assumed to be. The Banlieues are not the result of immigrants not being able to get educated sufficiently to integrate. They were largely imported from the colonies by the French after the war to rebuild, and as a reward they made to live in ghettos and treated like second class citizens. You get some of the idea in this article, but it doesn't tell the whole story. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0501/In-France-s-suburban-ghettos-a-struggle-to-be-heard-amid-election-noise-video Just do a search for 'banlieue' and you will see that the problem isn't that they came over when they were too old to learn.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:29
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