UKMT Red October 2015: Basically D&D's Communist Motherbase

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Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

OwlFancier posted:

I said this with indyref but does the government actually have to act based on the results of the referendum?

Not a lawyer, but potentially not.

Here is the text of the bill. There are too many Schedules at the back for me to want to read, but the bit at the front doesn't seem to have anything about the situation after the referendum, such as whether it's binding - it seems to primarily deal with the authorisation for a referendum and the logistics.

My guess is that legally parliament can do whatever the hell it wants with the results of the referendum. The political consequences would be pretty seismic though. As far as I know, the party line is "we've pledged to hold an in-out referendum" and nothing beyond that.

Edit: 31 October 1517, Martin Luther nails some paperwork to a door.

Prince John fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Oct 31, 2015

# ? Oct 31, 2015 01:04

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# ? May 11, 2024 11:05

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Prince John posted:

Not a lawyer, but potentially not.

Here is the text of the bill. There are too many Schedules at the back for me to want to read, but the bit at the front doesn't seem to have anything about the situation after the referendum, such as whether it's binding - it seems to primarily deal with the authorisation for a referendum and the logistics.

My guess is that legally parliament can do whatever the hell it wants with the results of the referendum. The political consequences would be pretty seismic though. As far as I know, the party line is "we've pledged to hold an in-out referendum" and nothing beyond that.

Edit: 31 October 1517, Martin Luther nails some paperwork to a door.

That was my thought, a referendum is asking "what do you fancy" not a legally binding thing.

As you say, politically it could be difficult but if the EU situation is untenable, which it could well be given that isolationism doesn't generally work out well, it could be less painful to ignore the result if it turns out unfavorably.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 01:08

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

This is pretty much always the case with referendums though, isn't it? Referendums say what the will of the people IS, but the government is never under a formal obligation to carry that out. It would just be suicidal not to.

Excepting of course that they'd still be able to stay in office for two to three more years regardless.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 01:14

VanSandman: Feb 16, 2011; SWAP.AVI EXCHANGER

I am mad you folks aren't ending every post with DCFADP.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 01:16

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

you need to mix it up to keep things fresh

George Osbourne Got hosed By Lords

# ? Oct 31, 2015 01:18

Skull Servant: Oct 25, 2009

Will George Osbourne Got hosed By The House Of Lords become the David Cameron hosed A Dead Pig of our time?

# ? Oct 31, 2015 02:43

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

David Cameron hosed a dead pig right in its dead rotting mouth.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 03:35

OvineYeast: Jul 16, 2007; Freiheit ist immer Freiheit der Andersdenkenden

thespaceinvader posted:

This is pretty much always the case with referendums though, isn't it? Referendums say what the will of the people IS, but the government is never under a formal obligation to carry that out. It would just be suicidal not to.

Excepting of course that they'd still be able to stay in office for two to three more years regardless.

The AV referendum was binding, most others have been consultative, I think. Theoretically there's nothing to prevent parliament passing a bill to nullify a result though.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 09:16

SpaceCommie: Oct 2, 2008; I'm escaping to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by Capitalism ...

SPACE!

Neurolimal posted:

you need to mix it up to keep things fresh

George Osbourne Got hosed By Lords

Maybe Gideon didn't gently caress a dead pig, that's why the toffs don't like him.

DCFADP

# ? Oct 31, 2015 09:44

a pipe smoking dog: Jan 25, 2010; "haha, dogs can't smoke!"

I can see a situation where if turnout is very low for the EU ref (which it almost definitely will be) the government could ignore it or call a new one where they get there result they want.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 09:47

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

OvineYeast posted:

The AV referendum was binding, most others have been consultative, I think. Theoretically there's nothing to prevent parliament passing a bill to nullify a result though.

That's kind of my point. Parliament is generally only as bound by law as it decides it is, so if it wants to have a theoretically binding referendum then ignore it, it is allowed to. Ignoring the whole 'political suicide' aspect, mind.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 09:52

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

Kezia is making her mark as Scottish Labour leader:

quote:

A future Labour government at Holyrood would restore tax credits for working families, its Scottish leader Kezia Dugdale will tell party members.
The MSP will make the pledge in her keynote address to the Scottish Labour conference in Perth.
Ms Dugdale believes new taxes would not be necessary to pay for the plan.
She will advocate changes of approach such as ditching SNP plans to cut air passenger duty and Tory proposals to raise higher rate tax thresholds.
Ms Dugdale will say that parties in Scotland must "get serious" about what they would do with the major new tax and welfare powers coming to the Scottish Parliament.
The MSP reckons the restoration of tax credits could be achieved by making different choices in government.
At the Holyrood election in May next year, the Scottish Labour Party will be defending the 38 seats it holds.
Ms Dugdale will tell her conference that a vote for her party would offer a break from Tory austerity.
She will add: "Scottish Labour will stand for the elections with a promise to restore the money Scottish families will lose from this Tory tax rise on working families.
"We will act as soon as the new powers make it possible. We don't need to tax ordinary Scots more to make this change.
"We just need to make different choices from the Tories and the SNP."

It will be quite interesting to see if the SNP come up with a seriously redistributive alternative once the new powers are announced now that Labour are firmly nailing their colours to the anti-austerity mast.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 10:41

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

OwlFancier posted:

Apparently about 70% of our food, for a start.

Pharmaceuticals, lots of international trade there.

As of last week, basic building materials.

So I guess we can survive if we eat each other, grind up the remains of the bankers to extract the residual cocaine to use as painkillers, and construct all future housing from the bones of the dead.

To be fair that would be some rad architecture.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 11:34

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

Prince John posted:

Kezia is making her mark as Scottish Labour leader:

It will be quite interesting to see if the SNP come up with a seriously redistributive alternative once the new powers are announced now that Labour are firmly nailing their colours to the anti-austerity mast.

Where exactly is she going to get the money to do this?

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:08

Phoon: Apr 23, 2010

If UKIP are really going for a military/patriotism angle against corbyn that's one step closer to outright fascism from them

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:10

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

No, just one step closer to revealing what already exists.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:11

Prince John: Jun 20, 2006; Oh, poppycock! Female bandits?

WMain00 posted:

Where exactly is she going to get the money to do this?

It says in the article that she thinks she can do it without raising taxes, by not doing the tax cuts proposed by the other two parties (air passenger duty and higher rate tax changes for the SNP and Tories respectively).

Presumably we'll have to wait until she actually delivers the speech to get more detail though.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:17

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

WMain00 posted:

Where exactly is she going to get the money to do this?

quote:

She will advocate changes of approach such as ditching SNP plans to cut air passenger duty and Tory proposals to raise higher rate tax thresholds.

IIRC, on a UK-wide basis the cost of the Tories' proposed increase in the higher rate threshold is greater than the savings achieved by the tax credit cuts.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:20

Communist Bear: Oct 7, 2008

On a UK wide - I fear though the money doesn't add up on a Scottish basis, but in fairness we will need to wait and see whats said first.

I do worry though that saying you'll prop up working tax credit and revert any changes shows a certain bit of naivety and plays into the Tories argument of a Labour wanting to run up debt again.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:25

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

I'm pretty sure that's right. The media are doing a fabulous job of ignoring the fact that far from tax credit cuts PAYING DOWN THE NATIONAL DEBT they're actually PAYING TO LINE THE POCKETS OF THE RICH by cutting their taxes.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:29

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

If Parliament attempts political suicide, does that mean that they can be imprisoned without charge or trial until their mental state improves?

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:31

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

WMain00 posted:

On a UK wide - I fear though the money doesn't add up on a Scottish basis, but in fairness we will need to wait and see whats said first.

I do worry though that saying you'll prop up working tax credit and revert any changes shows a certain bit of naivety and plays into the Tories argument of a Labour wanting to run up debt again.

Good. Tax credits exist for a reason, and the sooner the Tory 'if you don't cut what we're cutting you're bad' narrative is challenged the better. Can't win the argument on their terms

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:34

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

WMain00 posted:

I do worry though that saying you'll prop up working tax credit and revert any changes shows a certain bit of naivety and plays into the Tories argument of a Labour wanting to run up debt again.

If she can do it within the Scottish budget she would show quite clearly that there is no need to do it. Because unlike the UK as a whole, the Scottish budget is actually fixed, or to a degree anyway.

In some ways it's quite clever.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 12:42

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

WMain00 posted:

I do worry though that saying you'll prop up working tax credit and revert any changes shows a certain bit of naivety and plays into the Tories argument of a Labour wanting to run up debt again.

She's not proposing to fund the move with debt, she's proposing to fund it with money saved by not cutting taxes on higher earners.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:11

Marmaduke!: May 19, 2009; Why would it do that!?

Really weird to see the cover of today's Mail is cheering the return of the final British Guantanamo Bay detainee. It's like they occasionally have these anti-right wing moments that seem to come out of nowhere- you know, like when they revealed that David Cameron hosed a dead pig.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:21

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

WMain00 posted:

Where exactly is she going to get the money to do this?

Giving money to poor people has a fiscal multiplier of > 1, so it'll turn a profit by itself over a sufficiently long period of time.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:29

Darth Walrus: Feb 13, 2012

Squalitude posted:

Really weird to see the cover of today's Mail is cheering the return of the final British Guantanamo Bay detainee. It's like they occasionally have these anti-right wing moments that seem to come out of nowhere- you know, like when they revealed that David Cameron hosed a dead pig.

The dead pig thing was one Tory loving over another Tory because he'd broken their corrupt, incestuous contract, no?

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:40

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

a pipe smoking dog posted:

I can see a situation where if turnout is very low for the EU ref (which it almost definitely will be) the government could ignore it or call a new one where they get there result they want.

What is it they demand for strike action? 70% approval from 80% turnout?

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:51

TACD: Oct 27, 2000

Oops, it happened again!

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:52

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

TACD posted:

Oops, it happened again!

I love that this is a recurring problem.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:54

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Squalitude posted:

Really weird to see the cover of today's Mail is cheering the return of the final British Guantanamo Bay detainee. It's like they occasionally have these anti-right wing moments that seem to come out of nowhere- you know, like when they revealed that David Cameron hosed a dead pig.

On the other hand http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3296382/Last-British-prisoner-Guantanamo-Bay-Shaker-Aamer-released-13-years.html

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:55

OzyMandrill: Aug 12, 2013; Look upon my words
and despair

baka kaba posted:

Good. Tax credits exist for a reason, and the sooner the Tory 'if you don't cut what we're cutting you're bad' narrative is challenged the better. Can't win the argument on their terms

They exist to subsidise lower-than-living-wages, so businesses don't have to.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 13:56

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

feedmegin posted:

On the other hand http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3296382/Last-British-prisoner-Guantanamo-Bay-Shaker-Aamer-released-13-years.html

Why did I look at the comments.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 14:00

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

OzyMandrill posted:

They exist to subsidise lower-than-living-wages, so businesses don't have to.

I mean I don't object to skimming tax off the top of business and reinserting it at the bottom because you're achieving broadly the same thing as requiring higher wages and it strengthens the state in doing so.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 14:02

thespaceinvader: Mar 30, 2011; The slightest touch from a Gol-Shogeg will result in Instant Death!

TACD posted:

Oops, it happened again!

GodDAMMIT this is why we took him OUT of the Hulture Secretary position.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 14:23

TACD: Oct 27, 2000

OwlFancier posted:

I love that this is a recurring problem.

It's not a bug, it's a feature :v:

# ? Oct 31, 2015 14:29

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Oberleutnant posted:

Why did I look at the comments.

Oh God

# ? Oct 31, 2015 14:30

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

Mark Steel's piece on tax credits in the Independent was pretty good.

Mark Steel posted:

George Osborne should be aware of his achievement, because he must be one of the first people to be warned he�s being too mean to the poor by a body made up of the aristocracy, people dressed in ermine and bishops.

This proves his leadership potential, similar to a burglar being so determined he�s told by his colleagues: �Hang on, George, leave them the Sugar Puffs. We can�t take everything off the poor sods.� But instead of taking credit, he�s humble enough to explain the main issue of this uneasiness about cutting the income of the poorest people, which is that it creates a �constitutional crisis�.

That�s the real pain that will be felt by the families who lose �1,300 a year. When children ask: �Why have we got to go without breakfast from now on, Mummy?� they�ll be told: �Because if we�re allowed to keep getting tax credits it would disturb an unspecified constitutional legislative protocol that may or may not have been established in 1910. Do you want to ruin that just for a boiled egg? Now remember, if you faint at school, chew on a finger.�

Some of us might wonder how you can spoil a constitution when there isn�t a constitution. He might as well say: �The House of Lords has drawn over the masterpiece I painted, and murdered my stegosaurus.� But the most important thing is he�s explained thoroughly that the cuts won�t make people poorer at all, although they will save �4.4bn.

To be fair, this is genius and if we all did it we would be much better off. To start with, we could call the electricity company and say: �I have to make essential savings, so from now on, I�ll only be paying half my bill. But don�t listen to anyone who suggests this will make you worse off, they�re all extremists.� Then you can get a trolley full of shopping from Sainsbury�s and insist you�re only giving them �2 as you have to make essential savings, but it�s fine because they�re not getting any less than if you gave them �70.

Because, as Osborne says about tax credits: �It�s ridiculous that we give with one hand and take it away with the other.� So it�s much more efficient if we dispense with the �giving� bit of that process � which, after all, is the expensive bit � and stick to the taking away, which makes everything much more manageable.

In any case, as the Government repeats about every issue, we all benefit from these savings because they create a strong economy which makes us all better off. So if you�re receiving tax credits, the most sensible thing to do is accept these cuts, then demand they take more off you, forcing you to place your floorboards on eBay and put a great aunt on the game, then you�ll be living the dream.

This is why so many lords and ladies selflessly gave up their time to vote with the Government. Lord Lloyd Webber, for example, hasn�t bothered voting for two years, because nothing in the past two years has really mattered. But this week he flew in from New York and cast his vote, because cutting tax credits to the poorest people in work is the one issue where he had to make a stand. And he�s so dedicated I don�t suppose he even checked to see whether he qualifies for tax credits himself, because for him it�s all about the principle.

He understands what it�s like to be poor better than anyone, because he became rich by writing a musical about Jesus. And if there�s one thing Jesus couldn�t stand, it was the poor whining on about being hungry, which is why he cut the loaves and fishes credits across Galilee to make the books balance.

The Chancellor has explained that most people will be better off after his proposed changes, which may be true � in the same way most people would be better off if the blind were forced to sell their dogs to dog-fighting gangs and use the money to buy sweets, then share them with everyone who could see.

But it�s understandable that the Government is so irate about its cuts being delayed, especially as it�s so fond of hard-working families. For the past two years the Chancellor has been unable to complete a sentence without expressing his affection for hardworking families. During sleep he must mutter: �Hard, they work so hard, hard the families blibber vvv families.� In moments of passion with Mrs Osborne he must shout: �Oh my God, those families work so hard.�

But the tax credit cuts affect three million people in families that do work. So their problem must be they don�t work hard enough. Instead, Osborne must be referring to families such as the Bamfords, because Lord Bamford, who voted for the cuts, is worth �3bn, having become chairman of JCB diggers after inheriting the company from his father.

And it�s exactly this sort of hard-working dynasty that deserves to be rewarded, because for too long the wealth has been in the hands of security guards and cleaners and the sort of person who can�t be bothered to get up in the morning and put in a hard day�s inheritance.

But it does seem the Tories have got in a tangle, which is why the Prime Minister keeps making statements such as: �It�s completely unconstitutional to try to prevent us from doing something we absolutely promised we would never do.�

Jeremy Corbyn asked him six times if the cuts would make people worse off, and each time Cameron changed the subject, giving answers such as: �As I have said, the Latin for chaffinch is Fringilla coelebs.�

It would be more honest if he said: �When we promised not to cut tax credits, we meant we wouldn�t cut them in Finland.�

It was illustrated with a picture of the Fat Controller moments after opening the Ark of the Covenant for some reason, though.

I've also seen some things pointing out that people like Karen Brady and Michelle Mone voted for them, which might damage their public image a bit.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 14:40

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

OzyMandrill posted:

They exist to subsidise lower-than-living-wages, so businesses don't have to.

They exist so that people with low wages aren't thrown under a bus, yeah. Especially in times where the economy's in trouble and it needs to be stabilised. Removing them should be the end of the process of raising wages, not the start of it

# ? Oct 31, 2015 15:10

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# ? May 11, 2024 11:05

namesake: Jun 19, 2006; "When I was a girl, around 12 or 13, I had a fantasy that I'd grow up to marry Captain Scarlet, but he'd be busy fighting the Mysterons so I'd cuckold him with the sexiest people I could think of - Nigel Mansell, Pat Sharp and Mr. Blobby."

I completely trust the Tory government to get us half way to a low welfare, high wage economy.

# ? Oct 31, 2015 15:14

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