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zen death robot posted:Do you have kids? If not then I can understand why you might think that college might be an easier sell than making K-12 not be complete poo poo for a lot of people. Rural and inner city districts get hosed badly on funding in comparison to more affluent suburbs and the quality of education suffers as a result. If your fundamental education is flawed then college is gong to be that much more difficult for you no matter what. Our colleges are flawed for completely different reasons than our K-12 system, though. We're still the best in the world in terms of higher education. And again, it's easier to sell because colleges do a lot more than just teach students in terms of substance.
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Nov 15, 2015 08:50
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Sanders has made universal Pre-K a core part of his campaign, which is a good first step to fixing K-12.
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Nov 15, 2015 08:52
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zen death robot posted:Higher education means poo poo if you're forced to go to a substandard public school system that lost its state accreditation while you were attending. A higher education is always worth something if you can get it. I don't see your point.
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Nov 15, 2015 08:59
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McGlockenshire posted:So my fuckup of a local backwoods CBS station said they were going to air the debate at 9 Pacific. But nope, it's Jeopardy. Fuckers. Is there any properly approved, online recording of the entire debate? CBS's website has clips and recaps, but I'd like to actually watch the whole thing. So FWIW the CBS News stream has the entire debate on repeat. It just restarted now if you missed it and have nothing better to do over the next two hours.
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Nov 15, 2015 09:01
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Cicero posted:The problem with K-12 is that we don't even seem to really know how to fix it, whereas our colleges are already pretty good, they're just expensive. Thus, we can be pretty confident that we can solve the latter by just hurling money at it, but can't say the same about the former. We know how to fix it, we just have no will for it: Forced integration.
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Nov 15, 2015 09:22
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zen death robot posted:Do you not understand that there are a large number of districts that have 30-40% dropout rates? Those kids aren't going to benefit from college. Those that did graduate likely received a subpar education and will struggle in college. It's imperative that K-12 be fixed first and foremost. With a poor base education you're going to struggle regardless of what your opportunities are. High schools will always fail at preparing students for college, though- and you can't ignore the general consensus that high school degrees have effectively become worthless in the eyes of the public. They're not really good at scouting out gifted students. You can't improve them without raising the standards of that you measure students by, which is just becomes discrimination. And that's precisely what charter and private schools are already doing. I think a lot of arguments around public education are alarmist. Not because these don't exist, but because central proponents are composed of the likes of Michelle Rhee. I'm not against it, but it's easier to address colleges as a whole.
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Nov 15, 2015 09:24
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It's interesting that Sanders has cited two past republican presidents for his progressive policy positions: Teddy for breaking up banks and Eisenhower for increasing taxes on the wealthy.
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Nov 15, 2015 09:31
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Did Bernie perform better or worse than last time? What of Hilary?
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Nov 15, 2015 09:43
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Dead Cosmonaut posted:A higher education is always worth something if you can get it. I don't see your point. because its gonna be worthless for all the people who had a subpar education and as such dont have the skills needed for college. it benefits the smart kids more and you can make the argument that those kids were going to be fine anyways
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Nov 15, 2015 10:10
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Currently, college dropout rates are more strongly correlated with parental income than any other factor, including IQ.
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Nov 15, 2015 10:17
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What a thoroughly... enjoyable debate. "Just" adults rehashing ideas they more or less share, they just need to agree on the details. Clinton came off as clearly the most articulate, realistic, prepared and leader-worthy of the three. But it's pretty obvious that's not a "coronation", as a lot of people were saying earlier - she is getting questioned, tested and interrogated. Bernie is cool as an idealistic visionary - but it's a role that, I think, he should satisfy himself with; I think I'm not alone in having the feeling that it's almost like it's his campaign manager (who, otherwise, comes off as a broish rear end in a top hat) that's pushing him to attack Clinton instead of focusing on the issues and the message? And the end effect is that he's getting himself on Hillary's poo poo list instead of improving his chances of working with her. The Wall Street jab, though, that was heartfelt, genuine and understandable. And O'Malley started to sound like he may be actually a good candidate in 8 years? But he won't be Hillary's VP, so I wonder what he's planning to do in the meantime. I'd like a debate focused on the environment (especially in view of the Paris talks) and women's issues next time. The first should favour Sanders and the second one Clinton, so that should be all right, correct?
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Nov 15, 2015 11:22
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It's possible to both address K-12 education, and make college free at the same time. It's not as if one issue completely crowds out the other in terms of what's possible politically. And besides, if you want to try to claim that free college is unrealistic, really consider what "fixing" K-12 would involve. You can't resolve the districting issue without Federalizing funding, which means you'd be facing a rabid right wing opposition which is violently opposed to any kind of Federal control over how their schools end up being run.
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Nov 15, 2015 13:34
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I was hoping for a question about the poo poo going on at Mizzou, but otherwise it was a debate of decent substance and aggressive moderating with pointed questions and followups. Plus this is the only time a social media connection gimmick actually did anything worthwhile. The camera operators were clearly wasted, though.
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Nov 15, 2015 13:39
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zen death robot posted:Yeah K-12 needs to get fixed up way before we start worrying about free college. Let's be serious for a moment and call that promise what it is: a way to get the young crowd to vote for you. Is t this the same logic as "we need to secure border first before talking about comprehensive reform"?
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Nov 15, 2015 15:17
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zen death robot posted:Do you not understand that there are a large number of districts that have 30-40% dropout rates? Those kids aren't going to benefit from college. Those that did graduate likely received a subpar education and will struggle in college. It's imperative that K-12 be fixed first and foremost. With a poor base education you're going to struggle regardless of what your opportunities are. This is because the real issue is class struggle, a topic that democrats are afraid to touch. We have a radical disparity in public school quality and it's drawn on class lines
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Nov 15, 2015 15:19
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comedyblissoption posted:It's interesting that Sanders has cited two past republican presidents for his progressive policy positions: Teddy for breaking up banks and Eisenhower for increasing taxes on the wealthy. These were republicans before 1964, you should probably look at what happened around that time how much legs is the whole "I take donations from the banks because of 9/11!!!" thing gonna have?
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Nov 15, 2015 15:19
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For someone as on the ball as Hillary I was really surprised at her 9/11-wall St answer. What the hell was that. Props to CBS for calling her out on that.
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Nov 15, 2015 15:31
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zen death robot posted:You know a good first step would be to maybe, just maybe make it so that poorer districts don't get hosed over because all the property taxes get paid in the wealthier areas and the money stays there. For fucks sake there are realistic steps that can be made without going all "class struggle, full communism, etc etc" which is just a bunch of empty rhetoric anyway. Have you considered that class discrimination is the reason why funding is tied to property values in the first place Nooooooopppppppeeee just like every other liberal you hate the symptoms, but you sure do love the disease!
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Nov 15, 2015 15:45
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Cicero posted:The problem with K-12 is that we don't even seem to really know how to fix it, whereas our colleges are already pretty good, they're just expensive. Thus, we can be pretty confident that we can solve the latter by just hurling money at it, but can't say the same about the former. Uh, look at what the top states in the country do? Massachusetts and Maryland dump a lot of money in, often by way of having multi-town districts that cover diverse demographics in the same schools. Vermont and New Jersey mandate transfer of tax money from rich districts to poor districts in a way that means that the poorest districts have funding nearly on par with the richest districts (including all the poor districts having state-funded pre kindergarten for all, extensive after and before school programs to counteract the problems poor districts tend to have, etc). And all 4 of those states, the top 4 states for K-12 education in the country, do really well on nearly eliminating racial segregation in most school districts. Every other state could do this, but they refuse. Sometimes they refuse to do any of this at all except in the richest districts. Nintendo Kid has issued a correction as of 16:35 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 16:17
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I am seeing conservative family members complaining on Facebook about how the Dickerson met with the candidates before the debate for a "pre-interview". They are sayings this proves that CBS is in the tank for the Democrats (he told them the questions, etc) I am guessing that it was an interview so that they could have pre and post debate interviews to compare but that would not stop my family members from thinking the way they do.
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Nov 15, 2015 16:22
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triple sulk posted:no, it's just very unfortunate that poverty often involves a poor education which leads to exploitation of people's finances. doubling the minimum wage would be a very enticing way for even more casinos/gambling facilities to open up near poor neighborhoods and credit card companies to take advantage of a poor understanding of how credit cards work. And that is somehow worse than their communities being filled with payday lending scourges and title loan sharks because they can't afford to pay for anything on minimum wage?
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Nov 15, 2015 16:51
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Necc0 posted:For someone as on the ball as Hillary I was really surprised at her 9/11-wall St answer. What the hell was that. Props to CBS for calling her out on that. She lost control and went full demagogue. That's the real Hillary underneath all the beeps and boops, but fortunately we only have to see her when she gets pissed.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:32
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i remember years ago seeing an article about some girl who was i believe the valedictorian of DC's worst public high school. she figured 'oh ok i must be smart enough', enrolled in montgomery county community college in maryland, and flunked out in the first semester. she had excelled at everything that was presented to her and she was completely unprepared for community college which is one of the reasons dc has all those charter schools. my impression of them, never having gone into one but having lived near a few of them, is that they give the poor kids with parents who will put in the time a leg up while grinding the kids with parents who aren't there even further into the muck, all while making sure that a bunch of rich people get to profit off the process. it's creepy and exploitative but the parents driving their kids across town to a school that might teach them how to read probably are just glad they're getting a chance at all but then again im ignorant so
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Nov 15, 2015 17:32
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Necc0 posted:For someone as on the ball as Hillary I was really surprised at her 9/11-wall St answer. What the hell was that. Props to CBS for calling her out on that. I agree. She should have had a ready-to-go response like Rubio did with Bush's lovely "you aren't voting" hit. Something like: When I was in the Senate I represented the people of New York State. When the generous people of New York donated to my campaign, which is something I encourage everyone to do no matter who you support, they had to list their employer and the largest employers of the state of New York just happen to be financial companies. That's all there is to it. Then segue into the anti-Clinton super-pacs set up by hedge fund people or something. Idk I'm not a politician but anything would be better than "9/11!"
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Nov 15, 2015 17:39
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we all hate it but she might have made the conscious choice to do it, and maybe itll even work
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Nov 15, 2015 17:40
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oystertoadfish posted:we all hate it but she might have made the conscious choice to do it, and maybe itll even work not against Trump, who's self-funded and already called out Bush for his 9/11 poo poo
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Nov 15, 2015 17:52
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oystertoadfish posted:we all hate it but she might have made the conscious choice to do it, and maybe itll even work Oh yeah it was absolutely a conscious choice which is why I'm so surprised by it.
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Nov 15, 2015 17:59
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I just got back from Drake. My thoughts: Not sure anyone really won. Hillary is getting roasted in the press over the 9/11 response. Some are calling it a gaffe - it wasn't. It was clearly a carefully crafted debate line that just misfired horribly. The point, that she got a lot Wall Street donations because of her work advocating for NYC reconstruction, was totally lost after invoking 9/11. By letting Bernie paint the entirety of Wall Street with a broad brush, she essentially conceded the premise. I got the point of why she said what she said - it was to simultaneously rebut the charge while highlighting her work after 9/11. To a campaign consultant, that might sound really clever. Instead, it just came off as reminiscent of Rudy Giuliani. I thought Hillary made it through the foreign policy section despite having a target on her back, and she demonstrated that she just knows a whole lot more about it than her opponents. They hammered her on Iraq, although I suspect that this is largely already baked into the cake and it's going to be hard to score points on this as primary voters already know about it and have evidently chosen to ignore it. Bernie didn't do great here, and O'Malley sounded like he was moving to Hillary's right. The fact that the Dems on the stage were clearly so flustered by the "radical Islam" question was bizarre. They obviously were trying to be responsible, but the idea that you need to use some magic phrase to be tough against terrorism is inane and they should have said that. Bernie let a number of things Hillary said slip by - I can't believe he let her get away with the clearly asinine "Donald Trump's kids" line on free college, and his reply to her on the Terry Branstad line re: singlepayer administration was not effective. I think that's just a lack of preparation - she's deployed these criticisms before, and he should have already known how to respond. He could have won some serious points on these, but he let them slide. It's not clear to me that any candidate turned in a great performance. O'Malley might get a boost out of this by default, although I will note that he's actually the only candidate on the stage who is a horrible monster. Concerned Citizen has issued a correction as of 18:09 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 18:01
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zen death robot posted:Do you not understand that there are a large number of districts that have 30-40% dropout rates? Those kids aren't going to benefit from college. Those that did graduate likely received a subpar education and will struggle in college. It's imperative that K-12 be fixed first and foremost. With a poor base education you're going to struggle regardless of what your opportunities are. Are you on Eli Broad's payroll? In the 1950's the drop-out rate was 50%. Urban schools struggle, but that's by the corporate reformers design. They want public schools to fail so they can be privatized.
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Nov 15, 2015 18:17
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What's the relevance of "back in the 1950s when public schools were even worse and there was a ton more segragation, 50% of students dropped out"? An improvement of 10 to 20 percentage points over 60 goddamn years isn't exactly good news
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Nov 15, 2015 18:40
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Nintendo Kid posted:What's the relevance of "back in the 1950s when public schools were even worse and there was a ton more segragation, 50% of students dropped out"? An improvement of 10 to 20 percentage points over 60 goddamn years isn't exactly good news It's not bad news.
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Nov 15, 2015 18:44
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Concerned Citizen posted:I just got back from Drake. This sums it up nicely. People in this thread act like Hillary is impeccable, but every time she was seriously challenged she hosed up in a way that was exploitable by her opponent. It's just that her opponent isn't a good debater and let her get away with lying about medicare-for-all and TRUMP'S KIDS.
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Nov 15, 2015 19:20
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Necc0 posted:For someone as on the ball as Hillary I was really surprised at her 9/11-wall St answer. What the hell was that. Props to CBS for calling her out on that. Terrorism in France = invoke 9/11 as a pivot. Problem is that she did it at a completely idiotic time. It's probably something she was planning to use and consciously decided to use, but she dropped the ball on the timing/context. Should have been used to defend her hawkish/spying policies, not accepting bank lucre. It's getting some play today, too.
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Nov 15, 2015 20:05
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So what should be done about K-12 problems? We can't fix it because it's a part of the broader class struggle (ok?) but free college doesn't mean poo poo in a lot of places where the choice is drop out or barely leave high school able to loving read and write. So what exactly should be done?
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Nov 15, 2015 21:20
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Tatum Girlparts posted:So what should be done about K-12 problems? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district See this? Do this everywhere, instead of just Vermont and New Jersey.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:56
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So was this debate worth watching? I got the impression from the first one that Bernie treated it more like a stump speech than a debate, but it seemed like neither he nor Clinton were a clear winner to me. I've just gotten burned out on the election cycle and probably need to purge for a month before I care again.
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Nov 15, 2015 21:57
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MeatwadIsGod posted:So was this debate worth watching? I got the impression from the first one that Bernie treated it more like a stump speech than a debate, but it seemed like neither he nor Clinton were a clear winner to me. I've just gotten burned out on the election cycle and probably need to purge for a month before I care again. I enjoyed it as a rational discussion of policy, but you aren't missing anything if you skip it and purge for a month. It's not even 2016 yet, save your strength.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:08
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Nintendo Kid posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_district So what's your plan to have democratically controlled state legislatures in all 50 states to implement a plan like this nationally
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Nov 15, 2015 22:10
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rscott posted:So what's your plan to have democratically controlled state legislatures in all 50 states to implement a plan like this nationally It actually gets implemented by the courts. At least it did in those two states.
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Nov 15, 2015 22:14
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Nintendo Kid posted:It actually gets implemented by the courts. At least it did in those two states. according to the first citation in that wikipedia article, the courts made their Abbott v. Burke decision based on an amendment to the state constitution, which was made by a democratically controlled state legislature edit: ok it was in 1875 i just realized. no idea which party controlled the jersey state legislature in 1875. this impacts the validity of my point BUT if your state constitution doesn't have something implying everybody deserves an equal education you're going to need a state legislature that's not just democratic in party affiliation but also isn't beholden to the 'gently caress you got mine' rich to give the courts the texts they need to implement this reform oh and the constituency of the political groups impacts the political opinions of the old people in robes who get to determine how we live and die, even in states where said berobed olds aren't elected, insanely here's the citation link http://blog.nj.com/ledgerarchives/2011/05/the_history_of_abbott_v_burke.html oystertoadfish has issued a correction as of 22:21 on Nov 15, 2015 |
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Nov 15, 2015 22:16
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