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mannerup posted:mainly just posting this because I find it intriguing as a plausible theory for what occurred for Hamas A lot of the more lurid atrocities that are being claimed become more plausible if you look at it from the view point that the suicide fighters who were presumably meant to be sewing chaos and distraction were both of a lesser quality than the ones sent to military bases, and suddenly realised that not only were they alive long past the point they were expected to have been killed, but that no one seemed to be coming to stop them. It makes a lot more sense, to me anyway, than any plan that would have had "stop to rape" or "do an elaborate cartel tribute act" on the list of objectives alongside "try to create as much noise and confusion as you can in the short time before the IDF come with the speed and wrath of god to kill you." mila kunis posted:Unlike the 'beheaded babies' lies spread by the IDF, regurgitated by the western press and some posters here, the mass murder of Palestinian children by Israel is not made up. As a general life rule, if you ever have to wonder aloud if sharing 'graphic' videos of dead kids is ok, the answer is "what the gently caress is wrong with you?" Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Oct 11, 2023 |
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Oct 11, 2023 04:45
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Honj Steak posted:It takes days to evacuate even small towns - evacuating a city with 1.1 million inhabitants in 24 hours is impossible. Yes, and they know that. It's the same deliberate logic as when they tell people people to go to shelters, and then bomb the shelters they themselves designated. Telling a million people to evacuate through bombed out streets in a day is what you do so that you can then say "everyone who remained and was killed was a fighter" after you liquidate the ghetto.
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Oct 13, 2023 07:03
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Excuse me, I'm just a little ignorant Israeli, not wise in the ways of the international left, I have conceded many years ago that there are some forms of genocide in which the population constantly increases, there are some forms of genocide in which a region has some of the highest birthrates in the world, I mean it makes no lick of sense to me but I know this is because I am just too stupid and brainwashed to understand these things and so I concede that such genocides exists, with that said, I am a little bit confused as to how is it possible that the israeli indiscriminate death from above genocide machine didn't at any point during the 70 years of conflict murder as many civilians (or anyone at all period) like the brave hamas fighters who only target civilians out of despair did in a matter of hours on Saturday morning. Official UN numbers for the deaths in Gaza put the toll at 1100 now, not counting the victims of the pogroms in the West Bank. At best that is parity with the Israeli deaths in the initial attack. In reality that is only the confirmed number and it is a day old. With absolute certainty we can already say it was an undercount, by virtue of the weapons Israel is using and the environment it is deploying them in. The count of the wounded was approaching double for the Palestinians. And before the laughable warning from the IDF last night, the number of displaced people within Gaza was in excess of a third of a million. Your glib derision and one-upmanship when talking about the deaths of innocent people is offensive, grotesque, and abhorrent. You should feel shame.
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Oct 13, 2023 08:27
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In case anyone was unaware, the Something Awful Discussion subforum is also a valid avenue to discuss moderation decisions if you do not have plat to PM a moderator who does not wish to discuss things openly.
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Oct 14, 2023 00:29
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:There's something about it that's unusually shocking. I don't know why, but if rockets had hit the rave, that would be bad, even if the same number of people had been killed (which would be unlikely), but it would not be as horrifying as militants walking up to people and shooting them in the face. Of all the types of death in warfare we're not used to actually seeing what happens when hundreds of infantry sweep through a large civilian crowd without giving quarter. It doesn't fit our expected norms of drones hitting weddings, or car bombs in marketplaces. There's no back and forth or heroics. No contest of arms. It is viscerally hitting the same instincts that characters like Jason Voorhees play on in horror films. Violence in a relatable context that we don't associate with violence, and with no way to escape or defend, trapped in the open. It's a literal nightmare scenario. This sort of reaction is also why Israel has been very careful about keeping journalists away from their ground incursions into Gaza in the past.
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Oct 14, 2023 23:59
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Typo posted:when the US special forces operation to rescue embassy hostages failed in Iran the Iranians captured a whole bunch of top secret docs from the wreckage of US helicopters including detailed plans of what they were trying to do so it's not unprecdented I do concede your point. But those plans probably called the helicopters "helicopters" and not "make fly boxes", for example.
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Oct 15, 2023 00:39
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Let alone at that time in the morning.
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Oct 15, 2023 01:17
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TGLT posted:I'm sure the dead will be comforted to know the atrocities will be seen as premeditated or condemned by nations that will however refuse to sanction or in any meaningful, material sense punish Israel or even take real action to prevent the next set of atrocities. The British police atypically went out of their way to publish a letter telling the Home Secretary to gently caress of when she interfered to say that Palestinian flags or support for Palestine could be illegal. And the PM's language changed slightly today, while still being poo poo, presumably because of things like a member of his own party, a former head of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee being all over the press saying that ministers were legally on the hook for war crimes complicity and proceedings were beginning. The situation here isn't anywhere near as good as it was with regards politicians supporting Palestine since Starmer purged the left, but it's also not as uniformly pro-Israel as it was a week ago, and I do not think that the public was ever fully carried by the narrative. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Oct 16, 2023 |
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Oct 16, 2023 18:23
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wins32767 posted:So they have only knocked on the roofs of buildings before they bomb them for purely PR reasons? Or is it possible that they do care, just not as much as they care about doing what they think will minimize harm to their own citizens? This is a pretty much dehumanizing take on the Israelis involved rather than taking a hard look at their worldview and seeing them as humans doing some terrible stuff because they have some historical reasons to think the alternative is worse. The whole situation is awful and the systems and incentives involved for all the actors point towards violence indefinitely, but that doesn't make them inhuman as you're implying here. A warning to evacuate an apartment building that gives you 60 seconds of grace before the building is destroyed is not actually a warning at all. I would be amazed if most occupants even on the lower floors could get out in time.
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Oct 16, 2023 21:28
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BBC, Al Jazeera, The Guardian etc reporting that Israel just bombed a hospital killing 500 people. I know it's naive but gently caress me I hope this affects public opinion and puts pressure on countries to stop backing this. And one of the UN schools, which are designated shelters.
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Oct 17, 2023 19:05
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kolby posted:There are videos on that link purportedly showing a misfired Hamas rocket hitting the hospital. Hamas' rockets typically leave a pothole if they hit a road. I have never seen any evidence of them being as potent as the one that brought down that hospital. It defies common sense to look at the damage and say "oh yes, Hamas misfire" when we know that the side with massively more powerful ordnance and a history of deliberately targeting places of medical care and shelter have been systematically flattening the area.
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Oct 17, 2023 19:55
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I'm not sure why there is even a pretence of a debate about who did when quite apart from everything else, the social media advisor to Netanyahu admitted it was them and that it was deliberate. https://twitter.com/lowkey0nline/status/1714380404210246079?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Oct 18, 2023 00:33
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mrmcd posted:My guess is that Hamas or PIJ were taking some pot shots in the neighborhood and the Israelis, scrambling to retaliate before they ran away, hosed up the targeting or intel and hit the hospital. Israel has a history of deliberately hitting what should be safe places, and designated neutral sites. And nothing about their actions or rhetoric this week suggests that they would flinch at bombing a hospital. The benefit of the doubt isn't deserved when the people dropping bombs have a map with every utility, medical centre, and UN shelter very clearly marked down to the metre. You don't accidentally JDAM a hospital under these circumstances no matter what theoretical fire is theoretically outgoing.
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Oct 18, 2023 01:09
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I think more pertinently, even the IDF (in their more recent evolution of the excuses) aren't blaming Hamas.
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Oct 18, 2023 05:42
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I'm not sure why you would think that anyone with even a passing familiarity with the IDF, its past conduct, and its history of bald faced dishonesty would ever take proof provided by the IDF as being worth anything at all. Unless it was independently verified by legitimate and trustworthy third parties unrelated to the Israeli government.
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Oct 18, 2023 07:20
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Rakosi posted:EDIT: link deleted because not sure if there was gore or black fire scorching. Unofficial counts are approaching a thousand dead. More reliably at the moment between 300-500 depending on which government agency you listen to. As already noted, there is no valid proof to exculpate the IDF. There is only the latest in a sequence of inconsistent and unreliable narratives to have come from them, and they have a storied history of denial, obfuscation, and falsifying evidence to cover for their more outrageous actions.
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Oct 18, 2023 07:40
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fatelvis posted:If this wasn't the IDF, and they wanted to have any credibility at all in this, they probably shouldn't have: Add to the list that they bombed the home of the hospital's medical director.  https://www.episcopalnewsservice.org/pressreleases/crisis-at-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-diocese-of-jerusalem-sounds-urgent-call-for-support/
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Oct 18, 2023 07:52
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Rakosi posted:I do get this, and completely understand the reasons why anyone sane would be skeptical of the IDF, but “they’ve done it before” is not stronger proof than the images currently now being released in the daylight, and in my opinion, the footage of the malfunction and geolocating released soon after the event. It won’t be long, unfortunately, until they get back to their regularly scheduled war crimes. I just think it’s becoming clear now that this probably wasn’t one of theirs. Directly, anyway. It defies my understanding that anyone would accept the word of an entity that murders with impunity and has been caught covering up and lying about its murders repeatedly, over the most probable and explicable sequence of events without waiting for truly independent analysis. But your position has been consistently that the IDF didn't do it from the moment you started posting in this thread, even as the IDF story has altered and evolved. So I don't know what to say other than I cannot understand your position, and I think it is naive beyond the bounds of credulity. Main Paineframe posted:In particular, it struck me that Israel did not blame Hamas, but instead blamed Islamic Jihad, despite the fact that they've literally declared war on Hamas and are using Hamas as their excuse to invade. It's rare for Israel to do that. Even if an attack was clearly and obviously done by Islamic Jihad, the Israeli government usually treats it as Hamas' fault anyway and reacts accordingly. Usually when they pin the blame on Islamic Jihad like this, it's because they're seeking to negotiate or deescalate. I believe the first iteration of the IDF defence was that it was a Hamas rocket. This was roughly at the same time as Hamas tunnels under the hospital were also being used as an excuse for it being a legitimate strike.
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Oct 18, 2023 08:13
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Given the history of IDF actions, the rhetoric of the IDF and the Israeli government, and the orders to evacuate the hospital that the staff refused to obey, I honestly don't think it's unreasonable to entertain the possibility that they wanted to force people away from the hospital as part of the screamingly obvious strategy of denying basic services to the Palestinians. They may not have thought they'd kill as many people as they did, or they might not have been thinking about international optics and so didn't care. They hit a UN school today, they'd already hit that hospital at least twice. They hit medical facilities regularly as noted by the WHO in one of the posts earlier in this thread, and they were bombing so close to a larger hospital today that it was being hit with debris/shrapnel. There is no particularly credible reason not to entertain plain malice as a factor in how the IDF would come to hit a crowd of civilians in a location of humanitarian necessity and de-facto sanctuary. In a region they have placed under siege and are denying food, power, medical aid, and drinking water to, to the extent that residents are drinking sea water to try stay alive. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Oct 19, 2023 |
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Oct 19, 2023 03:26
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Al-Jazeera had their footage, which is what the IDF is saying proves an errant rocket, analysed and they say it shows that the rocket in question was successfully intercepted with the same visual pattern of destruction as other rockets. They also have footage, that the IDF excluded, of other Israeli strikes similar to the explosion confirmed to be at the hospital in the same area across the five minutes up to the hospital strike. https://twitter.com/AJEnglish/status/1714984258358391057 The WHO said yesterday that the death count is 471, with 342 wounded. They have representatives on the ground. https://www.emro.who.int/images/stories/palestine/oPt-emegency-situation-report-issue_5.pdf
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Oct 19, 2023 20:26
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NovemberMike posted:
Unless your position is that the rockets climbing out of Gaza hit some sort of draw-distance barrier and flashed out of existence, I'm not sure what your argument is. At 1:53 in the video, after their own motors have burnt out and gone dark, they are intercepted by the Iron Dome. It is quite clear both from watching and from listening that that is what is happening.
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Oct 19, 2023 21:24
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NovemberMike posted:Jesus Christ this isn't complicated. Give me a timestamp and a video where you see the Tamir interceptors from the Iron Dome. I gave you the timestamp for when the rockets are shot out of the sky. Did you not read my post? Are you saying that the video does not show them being intercepted, or that they were intercepted by something other than the Iron Dome system? If the former, why, and if the latter what?
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Oct 19, 2023 23:06
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NovemberMike posted:Ok, I was expecting a video and a timestamp but maybe the timestamp refers to the video in the twitter thread they linked a few posts before? That's basically just a super blurry blow up of a lovely cell phone video where they zoomed through it super fast so you can't see anything and then drew a circle around some random dots? It doesn't look like anything to me but the original source video might show something? It is a video of rockets launching into the sky. Their motors burning out as they exhaust their fuel and move into the next stage of flight. Then, while their motors are dark they all explode. This is indicative of one of four things: Either they hit a magical barrier in the sky and detonated. Their engines reignited far more brightly for a second burn that coincidentally looks like they are exploding into smithereens. They all failed in sequence at approximately the same time after launch. Or they were intercepted by Israeli defence systems. Now, give that the first two of those examples are not actually possible and the third is so unlikely as to be impossible, we must reasonably assume that they were shot down by Israeli anti-rocket defences. If that is not the Iron Dome what is it? Or do you contend that they were not shot down at all. Please read this post more thoroughly than you have previously, you seem to be skimming and that's not good for the discussion.
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Oct 19, 2023 23:41
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NovemberMike posted:" Or they were intercepted by Israeli defence systems." should be " Or they were intercepted by Israeli invisible defence systems." The Tamir missiles from Iron Dome burn until they intercept. You're arguing that Israel was launching Tamirs with thrusters that don't produce light when they burn? And that's more likely that a batch of missiles had a similar problem that caused a similar failure? This is absurd. You don't appear to be properly reading posts addressing you, and you're denying evidence with nothing to actually counter it. You're just saying "nah mate" to a part of the footage that has been uncontested by journalists, and by analysts on both sides.
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Oct 20, 2023 01:18
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theCalamity posted:https://twitter.com/sh_grewal/status/1715418185921699975?s=46 Thanks for posting these. It certainly seems to reinforce what many of us already suspected/believed about the Israeli version of events, and of their evidence.
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Oct 21, 2023 01:59
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daslog posted:The associated press has posted their analysis of the Hospital explosion The doppler analysis and 3d crater analysis by Forensic Architecture at University London seems far more credible in that its conclusions come from what evidence we do know as actual provable fact. The audio of the inbound ordnance and where that audio was recorded; and what it did to the ground where it hit. Both of which indicated that the weapon was coming outbound from Israeli positions and into the Strip. They don't claim certainty yet because they are preliminary results, but they seem more independent and actually qualified than a copy paste of the IDF's version of events verified by a random American Osint Guy.
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Oct 21, 2023 17:00
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Herstory Begins Now posted:lol that they're asking all the people 'does it look like a jdam' or point of impact fused artillery as if those are the only possibilities smh. basically asking if it could be the only things that can actually be ruled out An arty shell probably doesn't leave much behind. And a DIME weapon would also leave almost nothing afaik.
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Oct 22, 2023 01:32
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People care about who is responsible for the hospital attack precisely because the ambiguity has allowed Israel and its shills to now openly question every strike that makes the news. Any time a spectacular atrocity occurs we'll get to hear how it was another rocket gone wrong, as with the night market strike. Or there will be an initial ambiguity in reporting a 'blast', as if the thousand Israeli bombs dropped each day are all coincidental. As to fragments as proof, lack of them in the photos is not proof they aren't there, either in situ or having been moved while the corpses and gore were removed. And any fragments offered as proof will be dismissed immediately as being taken from elsewhere in Gaza anyway. The University of London forensic scientists have shown at least some of their working and say whatever it was was coming from IDF positions, the 'experts' being quoted by media outlets who are saying it was an IJ or Hamas, rocket have not, as far as I'm aware. So to my mind it's probably best for now to err on the side of the known and accredited scientists until someone can disprove their methodology when the report is published, or provide scientific proof of their own. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Oct 22, 2023 |
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Oct 22, 2023 06:23
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Mister Fister posted:Israel hosted an event for 200 foreign press to show some of the gruesome footage of the slaughter from Hamas' bodycams. I have 0 interest seeing any of this atrocious poo poo, but it's important that it gets released as some people are saying this is some stupid conspiracy theory that never happened (history really does repeat). I'll be honest, I would not attend the IDF Halloween party. Mostly because even if they have actual proof, it's still going to presented both for the most shock value, and will probably have been tampered with based on IDF form and habit. Also because no amount of free candy would be enough to take the psychic damage of watching those sorts of videos just to be a tool of the Apartheid state's propaganda push. If the IDF want to hand off the bodycams to truly independent forensics labs to analyse, review, and brief on, then that would be of value.
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Oct 23, 2023 21:27
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Mister Fister posted:A lot of this stuff was stuff that was uploaded to telegram (and later to sites like liveleak) before Israel got their hands on it. I still wouldn't trust the IDF not to cut in scenes from Predator or Child's Play.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:13
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It actually is with certain types of weapons.
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Oct 23, 2023 22:48
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NovemberMike posted:Which types? If you start talking about cellulose cased bombs Tom Clancy made that up. Dense inert metal explosives turn their casings into a particulate cloud which compliments the microshrapnel payload. And it's carbon fibre, not cellulose. Israel has and uses them.
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Oct 23, 2023 23:05
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Darth Walrus posted:Apart from all that, what the hell does 'there's no civilian population to hide in' mean? Being generous, they presumably meant because the civilians will have starved to death, or because the IDF won't distinguish.
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Oct 24, 2023 02:12
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Well this would presumably be a new low, if it's true. "Salama Marouf, spokesman for the Government Information Office in Gaza: We noticed tangible changes on the bodies of the martyrs due to the occupation’s use of internationally prohibited weapons, which cause the skins of the martyrs and the wounded to melt and char, and the upper and lower limbs to dissolve." If it is true I would assume we'll hear UN/WHO confirmation sooner rather than later. Edit: Ah poo poo, I don't see comments on my end because I don't have an account. Killing the link and tagging it. gently caress sake. Can you please break the link in your quote. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 22:55
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I said come in! posted:There is some extremely graphic content in the comments, so do not click. Thank you, and sorry again. Willo567 posted:What kind of weapon would cause something like that? Possibly it's 'just' talking about WP, maybe something chemical. Seems like it's going to be best to wait for a more independent source to comment on it. I assume Al Jazeera Arabic is a reliable reporting source, but the video was just a local government official giving an open air press conference. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Oct 24, 2023 |
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Oct 24, 2023 23:11
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Mister Fister posted:From George Washington University the other night: The latter sentence is pretty strong to post without a source. Anti-semitism absolutely does exist, and it is a major problem in many areas. Crimes against Jewish people will definitely be higher right now than usual. However, questionable/anecdotal reports of Jewish people feeling "unsafe" have been weaponised by Israel and her political allies to bring down politicians, and in recent weeks non-political figures, who are critical of the state of Israel, or just pro-human rights. Israel and its shills go to considerable efforts to conflate Jewish & Israel. So they can use anti-semitism as an attack against valid criticism. Maybe your first anecdote is representative of a genuine feeling amongst the general Jewish population of American universities. Maybe it's just the messaging of zionists playing the usual dirty game of libel. The problem with opening the pandoras box of using anti-semitism as an all-purpose political cudgel was always going to be that it harms the fight against actual anti-semitism and induces a boy who cried wolf response at times like this where it is being ubiquitously employed to silence criticism of Israel. And it bears repeating, whether it is zionists or normal Jewish people, feeling nebulously 'unsafe' is nothing compared to what is happening to Palestinians in the occupied territories, the anguish of their diaspora families, or the people who are actively losing their educations and livelihoods because they dare suggest that maybe dropping a thousand pounds of boom per day on 2 million innocent people is unkind.
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Oct 25, 2023 17:07
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It's for Biden's benefit, not Israel's. His approvals are taking a hit because it turns out that doing a genocide is not as popular with his actual voters as they assumed.
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Oct 26, 2023 18:48
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Within the country Hamas' attack is widely seen as an attempted second Holocaust. This just goes to show how insanely adrift from reality Israel's perspective has become. quote:I think the best case scenario (which to be clear, still massively sucks) would be Israel being convinced/pressured into a plan that removes Hamas from power and takes out their leadership, but which allows civilians to flee - a ceasefire combined with a genuine opportunity for Gazans to evacuate to somewhere, rather than just being vaguely told to avoid half of the strip with no instruction of where to go or what route to take. This would still be an absolutely horrible outcome that could result in permanent displacement but it's still better than the current trajectory of the war, which is tens or hundreds of thousands of Gazan casualties. Genocide is not a best case scenario.
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Oct 26, 2023 19:52
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As has been repeatedly shown, the Ministry of Health's numbers have been reliable for years in similar situations to the point that international bodies take them as such. Whenever they audit they find only minor discrepancies.
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Oct 26, 2023 20:11
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As 7 October was apparently at least as bad as one hundred 9/11s, the one democracy in the Middle-East is bringing in an equally proportional equivalent of the Free Speech Zones. Live fire against internal protest. https://twitter.com/YaelBerda/status/1717616644204216492 I would say "I doubt Israeli police will fire on Jewish citizens", but recent witness statements have at the very least opened that up to some doubt.
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Oct 26, 2023 21:10
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