Torrannor posted:

for example sweeping the Roma who died in the Holocaust under the rug

quote:

who as a group were just as persecuted and used as scapegoats as the Jews

icantfindaname posted:

i normally like roger cohen, but just dude

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/08/opinion/an-anti-semitism-of-the-left.html

Cat Mattress posted:

If they had stopped right there, without going on about all the conspirationist garbage she spouts about Charlie Hebdo, MH17, and so on, there would be honestly nothing in the article to support that she is as awful as they claim.

Cat Mattress posted:

Secularity does not preclude racism.

coyo7e posted:

Meanwhile I'm just sitting here thinking to myself "the amount of money that the US appears to be spending on weapons development and weapon deliveries to Israel, could literally pay for like, college for every person in the US," unless my math is really messed up.

coyo7e posted:

hey, Jewish people had a rough time once a while back (except they actually got reparations from most western nations, in the form of their own sovereign state, where they chose to pick it.. Or am I missing a point in there?)

icantfindaname posted:

So it's anti-Semitic to suggest that Jews do not, in fact, have the right to commit atrocities and crimes against humanity, no matter how hard you pull on capital-H History as justification? Sorry, the Holocaust doesn't make it OK for Jews to set up a fascist apartheid state and commit slow genocide. The anti-Semite thing is honestly in my opinion some of the most blatant projectionism you can find in all of politics, because the argument for Israel depends on a racist, ethnic supremacist notion that Jews have more rights than other ethnic groups. Most Israel defends are even open about this, it's not a secret people are trying to hide. And yet, calling those racist, supremacist assumptions into question gets the full weight of even the liberal FP establishment crashing down on you as ANTI-SEMITE!!!!!

coyo7e posted:

hey, Jewish people had a rough time once a while back (except they actually got reparations from most western nations, in the form of their own sovereign state, where they chose to pick it.. Or am I missing a point in there?)

Ultramega posted:

That's cool they hate antisemitism but isn't that kind of like expecting an attaboy for heroically denouncing child sex traffickers in public?

Ultramega posted:

I'm not calling bullshit on you, per se but would you cite some examples of that?

quote:

Labour members who express anti-Semitic views should be expelled with no possibility of return, John McDonnell has said, amid calls for the party to take stronger action following a series of damaging allegations.

“Out, out, out,” the shadow Chancellor told The Independent, speaking about concerns over how anti-Jewish views are dealt with. “If people express these views, full stop they’re out.”

The Labour Mayor of Bradford, Khadim Hussain, was suspended this week for sharing an anti-Semitic post on Facebook. That followed last week’s suspension of party member Vicki Kirby for a second time for sending anti-Semitic tweets – and conflicting claims over whether a Labour councillor in west London, Beinazir Lasharie, had been reinstated after suggesting on Facebook that Jews were responsible for 9/11 and the rise of Isis.

Dabir posted:

Note that the one stated opinion, ie that Jews did 9/11 and ISIS, has nothing to do with Israel, and furthermore gently caress off you disingenuous shitstain.

captainblastum posted:

Are you ever going to address the questions that people have asked you repeatedly?

Xandu posted:

Oy vey

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/199362/stanford-student-senator-saying-jews-control-the-media-economy-government-is-not-anti-semitism

eSports Chaebol posted:

You linked a story about Joy Karega, not Jasbir Puar as you probably intended (though she teaches at Rutgers, not Oberlin). Also, the unauthorized harvesting of organs was not done randomly by "Jews" (no individual Jewish person is responsible for the actions of any other Jewish person or people simply because of their shared Jewishness--to make such a claim is blatant anti-semitism) but at the direction of a single person, Yehuda Hiss, who harvested organs from Jews and Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians alike.

Dabir posted:

It is said that the best way to discredit something is to argue for it badly. By ypur own logic, antizionism = antisemitism, you are the moral equivalent of a Nazi, get the gently caress out.

MrNemo posted:

TIC has fully embraced the mindset that Jews bear a collective responsibility for their acts since they share some common cultural/genetic heritage. Thus an attribution of a bad or criminal act against a single Jew must be an attack on the Jewish people and is anti-semitic. It's sad to see someone so strongly enmeshed in a horribly racist attitude regarding a large and diverse group of people but there you go, TIC is once again propounding a fundamentally racist viewpoint while not addressing specific questions because they're difficult.

captainblastum posted:

Also - since you're going to flat out call Dabir an anti-semite, could you explain how you reached that conclusion as well?

Dabir posted:

Don't engage with the single biggest argument in favour of antisemitism itt, just tell him to gently caress off and move on with your life.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I think that if you're spending most of your argument with someone trying to argue that they must be Jewish due to their opinions, and if you think that exposing them as Jews is a valid way of discrediting them, then you are bigoted against Jews, which in common parlance is called "antisemitism". Particularly when you add the "Jews control the news and the media and politics" angle.

Darth Walrus posted:

As a result, they're very enthusiastically helping Israel against Hamas - with such vigour, in fact, that their brutal efforts to close the Gaza border have caused a major insurrection in the Sinai (bringing in jihadist organisations way scarier than Hamas or the MB to exploit the chaos). That's how that Russian airliner got shot down.

LeoMarr posted:

An israeli fighter jet was spotted near MS804.. it hit mach 2.3 before flying off 2 minutes after the plane lost radar tracking.

They fired an unguided rocked at it.

Ultramega posted:

The Farhud got brought up a thread or 2 ago to justify israeli policies and I thought it was, granted,a legitimate tragedy and A hosed Up Thing, way more mild than the pogroms in eastern europe? I specifically recall someone mentioning how straight after the violence was over a lot of people who had lost family/property and had fled returned either to resettle or pack up what they could find and leave. Anyway it was cool watching that post about it get shredded like carrion by wild dogs.

Wikipedia posted:

The exact number of victims is uncertain. With respect to Jewish victims, some sources say that about 180 Jewish Iraqis were killed and about 240 were wounded, 586 Jewish-owned businesses were looted and 99 Jewish houses were destroyed.[24] Other accounts state that nearly 200 were killed and over 2,000 injured, while 900 Jewish homes and hundreds of Jewish-owned shops destroyed and looted.[25] The Israeli-based Babylonian Heritage Museum maintains that in addition to 180 identified victims, around another 600 unidentified ones were buried in a mass grave.[2] An estimate published in Haaretz newspaper cites 180 killed and 700 wounded.

FreshlyShaven posted:

I have to take issue with this. There's a difference between explaining the prominence of a type of bigotry and justifying it. 9/11 doesn't justify Islamophobia, but only a fool would deny that 9/11 led to a massive increase in Islamophobia in the West. Pearl Harbour doesn't justify the discrimination and hatred aimed at Japanese-Americans but no explanation of why anti-Japanese hatred increased exponentially in America would be complete without mentioning that context. Saying "Israel's actions inflame anti-semitism" isn't anti-semitic. Saying "Israel's actions justify anti-semitism" is.

FreshlyShaven posted:

The Palestinians have been suffering for over 60 years under a brutal apartheid regime. Israelis have not.

quote:

Leaving aside whether the Mizrahim's experience is analogous to the Palestinian refugees'(for one thing, there's very little interest among the Mizrahim in returning to their ancestral homelands and some states like Iraq allow repatriation already), I would argue that anti-Zionists are generally pretty aware of the Mizrahim, their exodus/suffering and the discrimination they face in Israel.

Ultramega posted:

Sorry I'm using the Holocaust as The Benchmark For All Bad Things That Have Ever Happened To Jews. Thought you were on the level?

Friendly Factory posted:

Is this a thing outside Canada? I can't say I've ever heard anyone ever say this.

quote:

The only things I hear about Israel in this country are people saying Israel does bad things and the people who call the first group Nazis.

Kajeesus posted:

TIC, to where do you personally believe Palestinians should be relocated, given that they are apparently not native to Palestine?

Ultramega posted:

The antisemitic meme in question

quote:

Your argument doesn't even have anything to do with the actual picture. Ply your poo poo somewhere else.

Main Paineframe posted:

People who willingly and voluntarily choose to permanently leave their countries, with no expectation of ever coming back, typically aren't refugees and usually aren't interested in a right of return. Not too many Palestinians fall under that definition, though plenty of Mizrahi do!

Wikipedia posted:

In 1948, the country was placed under martial law, and the penalties for Zionism were increased. Courts martial were used to intimidate wealthy Jews, Jews were again dismissed from civil service, quotas were placed on university positions, Jewish businesses were boycotted (E. Black, p. 347) and Shafiq Ades (one of the most important anti-Zionist Jewish businessmen in the country) was arrested and publicly hanged for allegedly selling goods to Israel, shocking the community (Tripp, 123).

Main Paineframe posted:

Hey, I can quote Wikipedia too.

quote:

People who willingly and voluntarily choose to permanently leave their countries, with no expectation of ever coming back, typically aren't refugees and usually aren't interested in a right of return.

Dabir posted:

You know she got that from Norman Finkelstein's website, right? And he put it there cause someone sent it to him and he thought it was hilarious.

Dead Reckoning posted:

Ironically, it might actually be a violation of the federal anti-boycott law. The federal law prohibits U.S. persons and organizations from participating in foreign boycotts not sanctioned by the U.S. government. If it could be shown that Cuomo was acting in collusion with or at the behest of any Israeli government reps or agents, he might be violating it.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Because he's an antisemite. Every single poster in this thread is an antisemite. Are we done? Is this over? Can we go home already?

Absurd Alhazred posted:

How about instead of speaking in generalities you read this Sitting Governor's record and the corruption probes that are getting closer and closer to him. Here, let me illustrate this for you:


Wanting a corrupt political bully to serve time isn't some loving racist fantasy, and LOL for you calling Dead Reckoning of all people a BDSer. Or are you calling me a BDSer? No, wait, that would be too close to you actually making a specific claim, you're more of the insinuating type, that way you don't feel you ever have to actually defend a position or actually contribute to any kind of conversation.

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Not really. It's not even objectionable if you don't know Cuomo's general corruption and heavy-handedness. Just on the merits people can be suspicious of a Governor of a State signing a potentially useless, seemingly overreaching, and suspiciously pandering (literally on Israel appreciation day) executive order.

quote:

If you read this without knowing about Cuomo, if you weren't looking to throw "antisemite" around like loving toilet paper, you might notice the bridge burning portion, and the GOP reference, to realize that there must be some bigger context for the reaction.

But no, why do that? Why think? Why consider? Why do anything but assume antisemitism, and logically work your way backwards from that? That's work, that's hard, that's genuine discussion, can't have that with you in the thread.

Crowsbeak posted:

Could Cuomo be arrested for violating the law? Mostly I want to see that nepotistic back stabber humiliated.

WorldsStrongestNerd posted:

Its been said already, but being vindictive plays into the hands of the right wingers. The end goal is to provoke the palestinians into an attack so horrible that genocide will be on the table.
Now that I think about it, I wonder what has to happen before Israel can round up the entire Palestinian population into actual concentration camps without Israili civilians or world governments pitching a poo poo fit. I think a dirty bomb in a downtown area might do it.

MonsieurChoc posted:

Kill all fascists and extreme right people, regardless of race or ethnic background, IMO.

Cugel the Clever posted:

Good thing he specifically targeted a creed rather than a race, in that case.

M. Discordia posted:

Kill All Communists

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Main Paineframe posted:

For some people, "never forget" doesn't mean "don't let genocide happen again", it means "don't let oppression of the Jewish people happen again". For followers of the latter definition, the Holocaust is often seen as just proof that all gentiles are potential anti-semites and therefore ultimately can't be trusted. From there, it's a pretty straightforward path to Jewish supremacism.

Ultramega posted:

Still waiting for one of y'all to dredge up a single advocate for palestinian rights who hasn't been called an anti-semite.

quote:

JERUSALEM — Echoing anti-Semitic claims that led to the mass killings of European Jews in medieval times, President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority accused rabbis in Israel of calling on their government to poison the water used by Palestinians.

Cat Mattress posted:

Israel doesn't need to poison water, they can just bomb water treatment plants to get the same result but with the excuse that they're just defending themselves against terrorism.

emanresu tnuocca posted:

The part with a Rabbi publicly endorsing the well poisonings is seemingly a hoax though - http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.726657
Abbas lets himself get trolled too easily. (Though I would say it's almost certain that there are certain rabbis who do privately endorse these attacks).

Kajeesus posted:

What anti-Semitic claims would he be echoing, exactly? Was it common to accuse Rabbis of wanting the government to poison Muslims in medieval times?

team overhead smash posted:

There were (presumably) false news reports in arabic media the weekend prior making these claims, so he was just repeating a news story. The original person who decided to make up this false story is anti-semitic as they must have known it was false. People who believed the story to be true and acted accordingly aren't anti-semitic. Abbas withdrew the comments when it was pointed out they were incorrect.

team overhead smash posted:

Due to it being a presumption that it is fabricated and that being how the English language works.

quote:

Therefore believing and questioning a news report that says Israelis rabbis are promoting ethnic cleansing is not some crazy out there conspiracy like "MUSLIM OBAMA WANTS SECRET ISIS SLEEPER AGENT IMMIGRANTS TO RAPE YOUR WOMEN" but rather just a sad example of how if the story had been true, it would have just been one more example of human rights abuses against the Palestinians.

More importantly, on the scale of things ethnic cleansing related someone believing a story for a few days and then realising it is wrong and retracting their statement about it (which is what Abbas did) is about a million times less important than the fact that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing or the fact that Rabbis are literally promoting ethnic cleansing.

Ytlaya posted:

It's no different than using anti-black racism as a defense when discussing a dominant African ethnic group committing atrocities against a minority ethnic group in some African country

team overhead smash posted:

There is no knife to Israel's neck. Although individuals might die or be hurt occasionally, Israel is not under any kind of existential threat. Israel is a powerful nation, a regional power with modern equipment like tanks, bombers, jet fighters, a navy, concealed nuclear WMDs, etc. Palestinians are farmers who might surprise someone with a knife or land a piss-rocket into a patch of barren desert and have some guns.

quote:

JERUSALEM — A Palestinian teenager scrambled over a fence surrounding a Jewish settlement in the West Bank, ran into a house and stabbed an Israeli-American girl to death as she slept in her bed on Thursday morning.

The perpetrator, Mohammad Tarayreh, 19, was fatally shot after the attack. The victim, Hallel Yaffa Ariel, 13, had been sleeping in after staying up late for a dance performance the night before. Her father found her in her room, according to the Israeli news media and the head of the settlement’s volunteer security team.

The killing, in the Kiryat Arba settlement, was the latest in a series of attacks that surged in October and have left more than 30 Israelis dead. Several of the victims, including Hallel, have been dual citizens of the United States, according to the State Department. More than 210 Palestinians have also been killed, most while carrying out attacks or when thought to be about to do so.

Thursday’s attack was particularly gruesome.

Main Paineframe posted:

The politicians at Hallel Yaffa Ariel's funeral are being so transparent and insincere that even the Times of Israel is calling them out on it.

quote:

Once again, a Jewish corpse becomes a political prop for the ambitions of settlers and thieves.

Ultramega posted:

She needs to put the triple parentheses around her twitter handle to show that she's down with the zionist conspiracy and all that stupid bullshit.

Please don't do that if you have a twitter account. Not even in solidarity. It just looks goofy.

Ultramega posted:

It was brave to stand up to antisemites in 1938, in 2016?

quote:

It's sort of a given that the majority of the world's population are not antisemitic..

quote:

Unless of course you start dredging up poo poo like ethnic biotruths like how arabs are irrationally hateful toward jews or some other nationalist chauvinist talking points

Ultramega posted:

I don't have a milligram of antisemitism in me.

quote:

Also man you've got some nerve to try twisting around what i'm talking about regarding the chauvenistic nationalism. You know goddamn well which nationals I'm talking about you chickenshit.

Nevvy Z posted:

Tell me what grave perils await the man who stands against anti-semitism on the internet.

Ultramega posted:

Jesus christ you are an idiot. You sound like a loving debate team dweeb who mentally rubs his hands together and thinks "mmwahaha he just committed a dutch wheelbarrow fallacy, i'll show him!" And no I'm not being 'strangely adverse' to saying what I'm thinking. Again, you're coming off like you're overanticipating some debate setup trick. I don't know how much more plainly I can state what I said. And that is more of a failing on my part because compared to the likes of a lot of other people in this thread I'm nowhere near as eloquent. What is it exactly you're waiting for me to say? To just casually drop a sentence like "well, i don't really like heebs but it's 2016..." or some bullshit? Why are you even still here? loving answer the tons of hard questions everyone keeps asking you, chickenshit.

Ultramega posted:

team overhead smash posted:

Ultramega didn't argue that. They stated "It's sort of a given that the majority of the world's population are not antisemitic". The arguments you are arguing against exist only in your head.

Ultramega posted:

I'm not surprised you of all people would defend pointless social media grandstanding. It was brave to stand up to antisemites in 1938, in 2016? It's sort of a given that the majority of the world's population are not antisemitic. Unless of course you start dredging up poo poo like ethnic biotruths like how arabs are irrationally hateful toward jews or some other nationalist chauvinist talking points.

Ultramega posted:

She needs to put the triple parentheses around her twitter handle to show that she's down with the zionist conspiracy and all that stupid bullshit.

Please don't do that if you have a twitter account. Not even in solidarity. It just looks goofy.

Ultramega posted:

Jesus christ you are an idiot. You sound like a loving debate team dweeb who mentally rubs his hands together and thinks "mmwahaha he just committed a dutch wheelbarrow fallacy, i'll show him!" And no I'm not being 'strangely adverse' to saying what I'm thinking. Again, you're coming off like you're overanticipating some debate setup trick. I don't know how much more plainly I can state what I said. And that is more of a failing on my part because compared to the likes of a lot of other people in this thread I'm nowhere near as eloquent. What is it exactly you're waiting for me to say? To just casually drop a sentence like "well, i don't really like heebs but it's 2016..." or some bullshit? Why are you even still here? loving answer the tons of hard questions everyone keeps asking you, chickenshit.

One more thing, my family is Roma/Sinti on my father's side. Maybe you remember me mentioning it in the thread earlier? What is your stance on elie wiesel's active erasure of the Porajmos and the targetted extermination of people other than jews in the holocaust? Do you even care? Maybe make a post where I too can play the hurt semantics game and I pick apart your post to create phantom talking points I too can latch onto in order to make you sound like you hate gypsies or something.

quote:

I'm not surprised you of all people would defend pointless social media grandstanding. It was brave to stand up to antiziganists in 1938, in 2016? It's sort of a given that the majority of the world's population are not antiziganist. Unless of course you start dredging up poo poo like ethnic biotruths like how non-Romani are irrationally hateful toward Romani or some other chauvinist talking points.

Cat Mattress posted:

I'm telling you your hypothetical is dumb.

Even in a hypothetical one-state scenario where Israel and Palestine are politically united into a single administration, Hamas would not have complete control over it.

Since the South African example often comes up, here's the first post-Apartheid South African parliament. Notice how the ANC does not have 100% of the seats. And that's with a population where the former oppressors were in a clear minority (less than 20%). The population of Israel is over 8 millions, including over 6 million Jews; that of occupied Palestine is about 5 millions, of which over half a million are settlers. You'd get a combined population of 6.683 million Jews and 6.238 million Arabs; my god does that smell like "absolute total control to Hamas for sure".

Cat Mattress posted:

What makes you imagine that Hamas would obtain power over six million Jewish Israeli without their explicit consent?